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The Laughing God

Deathwatch & Rogue Trader

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Solardream said:

Thank you Peacekeeper for living up to your name. I could never reply as diplomatically like that most times.

 

Actually my name sake would just bully people into submission with my command carriers and commandos and then declare anyone with ideas and thoughts agaisnt the esptablished correct creed as irreversabley contaminatied and jettison them out an airlock.

I guess in the end, Farscape is the most 40K of settings, its just set outside peacekeeper space which is the imperium and the wage war against the scarrans which I guess would be terrelians (on steroids).

Hmmmm I need to rewatch the entired series now.

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What I find boring is the ease at which they dispatch hundreds of foes. Where is the challenge and fun in that? I mean if that is what you want, play a video game or the TT game.

Or play 40K using BRP, using the Superworld rules to build your space marine and play him in a COC/Cthulhu Rising game.

Me, and my players, like a challenge, like in Aliens or even predator.

Stuff like those fights and scenes from these kind of movies annoy me.

I used them as examples, on another thread, as a quick way to let  a player know what kind of character they have and I tried to stick to Sci-Fi movies. My bad.

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Dezmond said:

Wilfred Owen said:

Why don't you just play warhammer 40k? ;)

 

Forgive me for thinking a 40k roleplaying game should have something to do with 40k.

Actually, Dark Heresy has a lot to do with the 40k setting, just that you're suffering from a narrow view that 40k is all about Space Marines (or that because SMs sell well, that makes the setting). 

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Dezmond said:

So, in summation, 40k should be a welcoming place for all those looking to revel in adolescent power fantasies. Dark Heresy present some pretty poor power fantasies, and therefore fails as a 40k product.

I've been working on a solgan to get things moving in the correct direction:-

This is Warhammer - if you think DnD is a power fantasy, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Nah sorry does not work for me. Needs to be more punchy and Dark

 

try:-

 

Deep Growling Voice-over, or Ash(Bruce Cambell)

 

Warhammer 40K - Blood Terror And Man Sauce - DnDers you have been warned - Cue Grim Dark

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Peacekeeper_b said:

What I find boring is the ease at which they dispatch hundreds of foes. Where is the challenge and fun in that? I mean if that is what you want, play a video game or the TT game.

TSR tried to appease the munchkins by doing that with Dark Sun where you could start out with a 24 strength, and starting at 3rd level IIRC, allowing you to create fighters, or mule gladiators, able to deal more death and destruction right out of the box.  But alas it died a pretty quick death as the setting was pretty limited.

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What makes any game interesting is conflict and adversity, if you are able to just gun your way out of any situation then it loses its appeal pretty **** quickly, figuring things out for himself is the only real freedom that a man has, if you drown that in power play and gunz then sure it can be fun for one session, but then it’s just rinse and repeat. That said, I am looking forward to seeing how they are going to handle the death watch game , that it was announced at all means that they already have an idea with it to make it deeper and more interesting then just gunplay and dice rolling. One thing I have been wondering is if they will be doing it like Ars Magica where players had multiple characters from Mighty Wizards (the marines/inquisitors) over Bygones (magical creatures of myth and power) and grogs (mortal servants) that allowed the players to interact with several layers of the game without getting into situations where they are way over their heads or just too powerful.

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Warhammer 40k's popularity is fully based on the fluff and background of the setting. It's a rich universe with an interesting story in every aspect of it.

Space Marines are the most popular army in the Tactical Game because they are easy to play. There is no skill in having high strength weapons and power armor. If you field enough Space Marines you will win. That's all there is to it. It's a power gamers army.

My favorite tournament army in the 2nd and 3rd editon of WH40k was 90 marines and 1 basic commander. You flood the table with nigh indestructible troops and immediately invalidate all of your opponents "Tank-killing" weapons. Imagine an army with all missiles and lascannons and then realizing that no matter what the player does, his troops weapons will only be able to kill a 15 point marine each round of play at best.

Needless to say, I was accused of being cheesy for my "anti-cheese". I fielded all troops and aside from a few missile launchers and flamers in each squad had no mods to the entire army. Heck my commander had only a bolt pistol, chainsword and power armor.

BTW, I never lost with that army.

Space Marines are popular because they're cheesy.

Anyway, the real fun in the game for me was buying and reading all of the fluff in the rulebook and codexes. I was hooked on the sheer mountain of material Games Workshop brought to the table. It was amazing stuff. I loved the 40k setting, Necromunda, Gorka Morka. All of it was entrancing me. That's why I play this game now too. It's not about the Space Marines. I have always wanted GW to put out an RPG revolving around this game setting. Now I have my wish. I do look forward to both Rogue Trader and Deathwatch, but I'm very content with what has come out with DH.

Dezmond, while you are correct that the Space Marines are the most popular army in the 40k game, it's not the reason everyone keeps coming back. It's the richly detailed setting.

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Hear, hear. It is what is bringing me in, after I ignored a couple decades of space marines. Waste World was a well made system, good setting, and was ruined for me because it felt like there really wasn't much to do except kill, kill, kill...maybe it should have been miniatures, perhaps it would have done better. I am afraid Death Watch is going to be that way too. We'll see.

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When we first started playing TT a few years back (2003 or so) (in college I knew people who played and I was heavy into Necromunda and a bit into Gorka Morka and had a few friends into Epic, this was circa 1995) I really wasnt interested in playing cause when I saw the Space Marines and other armies I just wasnt excited. They seemed a bit boring and while flavour could be added, most of it was inherit. You cant really do much with Necrons or even Space Marines outside of the Chapters that already exist. But the Imperial Guard finally caught my attention because I actually felt I could build and customize an army that was unique and characterful, even if it was just fluff.

Now Im sure others could do that with Space Marines, and last October/November I did build a Space Marine force while I was at BNCOC, but only cause the pieces were easy to come across.

But I think the Inquisition is the best place to do the 40KRPG, alongside Rogue Traders who I do not see necessarily being more powerful on a skill/stat way then acolytes, just on a political/commercial level. As these two groups, even in table top, allow for a wide variety of members, from Sodliers and Acolytes, to Adepts, Crusaders, Techs, Psykers and so forth.

In Space Marines  you have Space Marine with big gun, Space Marine with Psychic Power, Space Marine Tech, Space Marine who is a Chaplain.

Now I wouldnt mind seeing things like Neophytes and Scouts being in RT or DH, but not full fledge space marines.

So for me, DW is just for rules and to see how to do the SM and to see what I can use for DH/RT games.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

Now I wouldnt mind seeing things like Neophytes and Scouts being in RT or DH, but not full fledge space marines.

So for me, DW is just for rules and to see how to do the SM and to see what I can use for DH/RT games.

 

I agree with that completely, I mean a one off from time to time where the guys get the don a power armour and shoot  everything that moves, sure, fun for an evening of light entertainment with no brains invloved. Wonder how to real with sisters of battle at this level, is she a living saint?

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While I think they should just stop pissing about and make with the Space Marines before another company goes belly up.

+++++Space Marine with big gun, Space Marine with Psychic Power, Space Marine Tech, Space Marine who is a Chaplain+++++

We call em Tank, Nuker, Healer etc.

No worse than Pendragon (and Pendragon is at least as up itself as CoC, so we can feel superior there) with everyone playing knights.

And like I said earlier, you have a wide variety of Warrior Archetypes to nick - Roman Legionary, Viking Berserker, Mongol Horseman, Crusader Knight etc, so it is actually more flexible than Pendragon.

+++++Space Marines are the most popular army in the Tactical Game because they are easy to play.+++++

I think being power armoured supermen helps. Man but I love Power Armour.

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Dezmond said:

+++++Space Marines are the most popular army in the Tactical Game because they are easy to play.+++++

I think being power armoured supermen helps. Man but I love Power Armour.

Dez,

I give you full credit for being single-minded in your devotion the the Space Marines.

You love the power armour.

:)

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Dezmond said:

While I think they should just stop pissing about and make with the Space Marines before another company goes belly up.

+++++Space Marine with big gun, Space Marine with Psychic Power, Space Marine Tech, Space Marine who is a Chaplain+++++

We call em Tank, Nuker, Healer etc.

No worse than Pendragon (and Pendragon is at least as up itself as CoC, so we can feel superior there) with everyone playing knights.

And like I said earlier, you have a wide variety of Warrior Archetypes to nick - Roman Legionary, Viking Berserker, Mongol Horseman, Crusader Knight etc, so it is actually more flexible than Pendragon.

+++++Space Marines are the most popular army in the Tactical Game because they are easy to play.+++++

I think being power armoured supermen helps. Man but I love Power Armour.

First, and to be honest, didnt care for Pendragon. Had some nice notions and good concepts, but grew boring (for me) quickly. But many people like it, so go for it.

Hey, Ill be honest again, if someone started a Space Marine game, id probably be willing to play in it. If it was good Id stick around, if it was just a bolt gun waving contest, Id leave.

And power armoured supermen is what makes them so easy to play.

But Im glad you started to use the term "I" for your reasons. I agree, power armour is cool. Its just not for Dark Heresy style games. But its there, and if you GM lets you, go get it.

I read Dmanation Crusade, I found it an amusing comic (Exterminatus is better IMHO) and I read a few SM novels and Short Stories, they are also ok.

So I hope you get what  you want Dez.

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+++++First, and to be honest, didnt care for Pendragon+++++

It is a solid enough format to carry a game. Space Marines are probably more popular than Arthurian Knights among gamers*, so it should work well.

You have all the mythology and mysticism of Knighting and courtly intrigue, coupled with the ass kicking of a tyranid infested space hulk.

And a high powered technomancer can be playing a warped version of Ars Magica from a spatbook.

*A somewhat bizarre though, but I think it might actually be true. In a The Beetles are bigger than Jesus sense.

--

Final Fantasy XIII - what 40k must compete against:-

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Yeah, cause you can have so much courtly intrigue and romance with Space Marines, complete with championing your lady's favour in jousting matches. Oh, wait...

 

Besides, yes, Space Marines are the best selling army, but you have to look at the demographic they sell to. Most of Marine armies are bought by 13-year olds, who sell them or put them into shoeboxes as soon as they see some new cool stuff.

On the other hand, in internet message boards, populated by veteran players, such as Warseer, Imperial Guard is the most popular.

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Idaan said:

Besides, yes, Space Marines are the best selling army, but you have to look at the demographic they sell to. Most of Marine armies are bought by 13-year olds, who sell them or put them into shoeboxes as soon as they see some new cool stuff.

I think this is somewhat unfair. Space Marines are not just for early teens and Imperial Guard are not just for adults.

Every army in the tactical game has something to offer to everyone. I've been 13 almost 3 times in my life and I've enjoyed the Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Tau, and Tyranids.

One of the coolest armies I remember seeing was an Imperial Guard army owned by a 10 year old at a tournament. He had painted the army to look like toy soldiers. They were washed and dry brushed with various shades of green and it looked spectacular.

Pigeon-holing an army to an age group is not fair.

I'll admit, Dez's waxing about t he greatness of Space Marines gets a bit tedious at times, but one person's view shouldn't sour your image of an army.

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schoon said:

Jakews said:

 

Does anyone know when Rouge Trader is slated to come out? I would really like to thumb through that one.

 

 

GenCon this year.

How about a date?

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I don't think a date is forthcoming. Most gaming companies really hate to give out dates in case something falls through. Would you rather be seen as secretive or would you rather be known as a company that can't make their deadlines?

 

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