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Dogma79

Elite Formations much too heavy

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BJaffe01 said:

yes indeed the card needed to playtested carefully. thats why i used it where i did. the opposing player knows that operation card is in effect and should change his tactics accordingly. when the Soviets attacked SS units they where prepared to loose 3-5 divisions against one SS division. 12th SS survied being pounded by 2 comonwealth divisions. i think the Elite Formations card is fine just be real careful in it's use

BJaffe01

 

I have no problem at all with the steep increase in firepower. I like the idea of having formations with incredible firepower. It simply means that the opponent will have to shift his tactical focus towards a more reactive and indirect style ... every super squad will still only have 4 men in it and every hit will decrease the firepower of the squad very fast.

It's the heavy infantry weapons that don't behave as they should:

 

- a double-mortar squad should not have firepower 10 ... much too strong

- a single mortar squad should not have firepower 7 either ... much too efficient

- a machinegun in op-fire shooting 6 or 7 dice against soldiers totally locks the game down

- a machinegun in op-fire shooting 5 dice against vehicles only belongs in fantasy games

 

It only effects the scenario's that use it of course, but you might as well add a warning about "for pure soldier armies only" because anything else and it will totally screw up the game. I can certainly see myself using it in any future scenario's I might make, but never as it's currently written and I will probably house-rule it in the current scenario's as well ... because no friggin' MG is gonna mess-up my pretty T-34's!

 

cool.gif

 

(I'm still strongly in favour of making the bonus regulars/elites only.)

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KlausFritsch you are correct Elite Formations should be a limited use card. I plan to use it sparingly but i have ideas for it. the German 3rd Parachute division which fought the US 29th infantry division near ST.Lo could put out more firepower even though they understregth at the time. that was due the fact that better than 60% of division had automatic weapons. so elite formations would be a card to use in this example

BJaffe01

 

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Latro yes those numbers are high but i feel they reflect the killing power a 1943 or later German Division could deliver. The Allied divisions took much higher casulities then planned as they didn't account for those effects. by 1945 the British,Soviet and US. infantry divisions where very short rifleman do to the high casulties being caused by German divisions even the bad ones as lots of automatic weapons cause lots of casulties.

BJaffe01

 

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BJaffe01 said:

Latro yes those numbers are high but i feel they reflect the killing power a 1943 or later German Division could deliver. The Allied divisions took much higher casulities then planned as they didn't account for those effects. by 1945 the British,Soviet and US. infantry divisions where very short rifleman do to the high casulties being caused by German divisions even the bad ones as lots of automatic weapons cause lots of casulties.

BJaffe01

 

 

Keep in mind that gameplay should always trump historical accuracy!

I'm all in favour of having infantry squads with insane firepower, I can deal with that in a scenario that is balanced by other factors also. But if you give the same bonus to a machinegun squad as well and things become very ugly, very fast. For example: a german MG-squad in op-fire will now score 2 kills (average) against any enemy soldier unit that moves into range ... add a second MG-squad in overwatch and it will a totall kill (average). You could of course argue that walking into a crossfire of two MG-42 positions was very deadly, but in real life those MG's didn't have unlimited op-fire shots either! In this game those two MG's can basicly shot down the entire Red Army.

With very careful scenario planning the impact can be lessened of course.

That excuse doesn't work for the MG v. Vehicle problem though. It's silly, unbalanced and as a-historical as you can get. The mortars have a serious risk of becoming overpowered, the MG's as well ... but a lot depends on other factors in the scenario as well. No matter how good the scenario is though, it can never fix this weird AT-MG situation.

 

cool.gif

 

(PS: Thanks for the great feedback, it's always nice to discuss things with the boss himself!)

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Latro it's always a pleasure to talk to the folks who play the games. Elite Formations is sure to cause lots of players to house rule it. i'm aware of how powerful and non historical the card can be. The one thing to remember is the card was intended for a very specific scenario and if it's never used other than that it's fine by me. not all operations cards are meant to be used multiple times, another example of this is the King Tiger card in Normandy it's for the Operation Goodwood Scenario and that is it. it wasn't designed for multiple uses.

BJaffe01

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I am not sure that the card changes the range of the models?

I would also think that the bonus is only pr. acting model. Thus the MG would not benefit from models that are out of range, or choosing not to fire.

Mortars is still only a single model shooting and firepower 5 is bad, but not realy gamebreaking. Double mortars are bad Mojo, but 8 dice is bad anyway.

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Hefsgaard you are right no change in ranges. and yeah MG firing on their own would 5's and solo mortars are 5's or 3's doubles would 8's or 5's  deadly weapons but not broken.

BJaffe01

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Hefsgaard said:

I am not sure that the card changes the range of the models?

I would also think that the bonus is only pr. acting model. Thus the MG would not benefit from models that are out of range, or choosing not to fire.

Mortars is still only a single model shooting and firepower 5 is bad, but not realy gamebreaking. Double mortars are bad Mojo, but 8 dice is bad anyway.

Since none of that is actually in the text on the card, it's basicly as official as any other houserule out there. The card simply says "+1 firepower per figure in the squad's base." ... nothing about the need to be actually firing. So if this is the case (as BJaffe01 seems to indicate), then they better Errata/FAQ it ASAP.

On the bright side, I did notice that it doesn't work for units in op-fire!

 

cool.gif

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Hefsgaard said:

I would also think that the bonus is only pr. acting model. Thus the MG would not benefit from models that are out of range, or choosing not to fire.

Mortars is still only a single model shooting and firepower 5 is bad, but not realy gamebreaking. Double mortars are bad Mojo, but 8 dice is bad anyway.

That is how I understand the card, too.

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Since we are talking about mortars, I have a question to you historians, how well did Mortars do against tanks? Is firepower 4 (or 6 with elite formation) versus tanks fair for a double mortar?

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KlausFritsch said:

In one of their books on the Normandy Campaign, the authors of flames of war have a two-page comparison of actual firepower output of a British squad with the Bren LMG and a German squad with two MG42 LMGs. I do not have the book here in the office, but if I remember correctly, the difference was quite distinct, maybe even more than double. I will look that up in the evening.

KlausFritsch said:

In one of their books on the Normandy Campaign, the authors of flames of war have a two-page comparison of actual firepower output of a British squad with the Bren LMG and a German squad with two MG42 LMGs. I do not have the book here in the office, but if I remember correctly, the difference was quite distinct, maybe even more than double. I will look that up in the evening.

OK, now that comparison is in Monty's Meatgrinder, a book on the battle for Caen.

It compares a Panzergrenadier platoon to a British rifle platoon.

The Germans hve 6 MG42 LMGs, 9 MP40 SMGs, 3 bolt-action rifles.

The British have 3 Bren LMGs, 4 Sten SMGs, 22 bolt-action rifles, 1 PIAT, 1 2" mortar, 1 Webley pistol (ooooh!).

The bulk of the Panzergrenadier firepower comes from the LMGs with a rate of fire of 1200 rpm. The Bren LMGs have only 500 rpm. In the comparison, the Germans can put out more than 4 times the firepower compared to the British. In reality, this would have been close to double the firepower, because, as the article states, at full rate of fire, the Pangergrenadier platoon could expend all its ammunition in about a minute.

German Grenadier platoons had only 3 LMGs, so the firepower would be closer, but still superior to, British rifle platoons.

I think, the card works if used correctly in the correct situations. It is just something your opponent has to be very aware of and adjust tactics accordingly.

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In general, I would suggest that for complex games such as this, FFG take a page out of Games Workshop's book and intersperse explanations on design decisions into the rules, explaining the intention behind some rules and extras.

In GW rule texts, these explanations help clarifiy many questions and lead to a better understanding of the rules.

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KlausFritsch said:

In general, I would suggest that for complex games such as this, FFG take a page out of Games Workshop's book and intersperse explanations on design decisions into the rules, explaining the intention behind some rules and extras.

In GW rule texts, these explanations help clarifiy many questions and lead to a better understanding of the rules.

 

Conflict of Heroes does this too. It's very clarifying from time to time. Some might still disagree but at least you see the intention behind the rule.

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Latro said:

Hefsgaard said:

 

I am not sure that the card changes the range of the models?

I would also think that the bonus is only pr. acting model. Thus the MG would not benefit from models that are out of range, or choosing not to fire.

Mortars is still only a single model shooting and firepower 5 is bad, but not realy gamebreaking. Double mortars are bad Mojo, but 8 dice is bad anyway.

 

 

Since none of that is actually in the text on the card, it's basicly as official as any other houserule out there. The card simply says "+1 firepower per figure in the squad's base." ... nothing about the need to be actually firing. So if this is the case (as BJaffe01 seems to indicate), then they better Errata/FAQ it ASAP.

On the bright side, I did notice that it doesn't work for units in op-fire!

 

cool.gif

 

Good points. I had interpreted the rules as such, that is as Bill Jaffe confirmed, , but you're right: a rules lawyer might disagree, because it's not what's actually stated!

Good that it doesn't work when in op-fire (knew that already, but noticed that you'd missed that restriction). Game-balance wise that is. On the other hand: "Hey we're elites, we have a lot more firepower, so be careful!"(Actually you can just run towards us all you want because then we're actually not all that elite anymore all of a sudden are are a lot more likely to miss...".

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Kingtiger said:

"Hey we're elites, we have a lot more firepower, so be careful!"(Actually you can just run towards us all you want because then we're actually not all that elite anymore all of a sudden are are a lot more likely to miss...".

Just a question of holding and timing your fire... once they have run towards you and it is your action turn again, you can blast them with full firepower. happy.gif

HMGs in Op Fire are bad enough as they are, I think.

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Kingtiger said:

Latro said:

 

Hefsgaard said:

 

I am not sure that the card changes the range of the models?

I would also think that the bonus is only pr. acting model. Thus the MG would not benefit from models that are out of range, or choosing not to fire.

Mortars is still only a single model shooting and firepower 5 is bad, but not realy gamebreaking. Double mortars are bad Mojo, but 8 dice is bad anyway.

 

 

Since none of that is actually in the text on the card, it's basicly as official as any other houserule out there. The card simply says "+1 firepower per figure in the squad's base." ... nothing about the need to be actually firing. So if this is the case (as BJaffe01 seems to indicate), then they better Errata/FAQ it ASAP.

On the bright side, I did notice that it doesn't work for units in op-fire!

 

cool.gif

 

 

 

Good points. I had interpreted the rules as such, that is as Bill Jaffe confirmed, , but you're right: a rules lawyer might disagree, because it's not what's actually stated!

Yeah, the card isn't so bad as long as you ... uhm ... don't do what the card actually says.

 

gran_risa.gif

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Mortars performed okay against armor since the shell usaly hit the thinner top armor. artillery sometimes did real well and naval gunfire was devastating to tanks.

BJaffe01

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SS troops wheren't that much more powerful than other German troops of the same type. Yes they had newer equipment in many cases but this was mostly tanksheavy weapons. Heer troops had the same MG'sman-packed anti-tank weapons they had. SS where more devoted to winning so where less likely to retreat. Heer panzer grenadiers where just as mean to deal with as their SS counterparts. So if I read this thread right this card would best represent Panzer Grenadiers. These troops where equiped with anti-tank weapons2 MG 42's per squad. Add to this that they where mounted in half-tracks armed with more MG 42's. That's alot of firepower.

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KlausFritsch said:

In general, I would suggest that for complex games such as this, FFG take a page out of Games Workshop's bookintersperse explanations on design decisions into the rules, explaining the intention behind some rulesextras.

In GW rule texts, these explanations help clarifiy many questionslead to a better understanding of the rules.

 

Yeah, if only GW did that throughoutdidn't leave so many blanks spots. Gate Of Infinity comes to mind...

 

Alex

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Cyscott1 said:

So if I read this thread right this card would best represent Panzer Grenadiers. These troops where equiped with anti-tank weapons2 MG 42's per squad. Add to this that they where mounted in half-tracks armed with more MG 42's. That's alot of firepower.

That is how I think the card is best used.

I do not know if there even were units in other armies with that kind of firepower. US armored infantry perhaps, because they also could dismount the MGs from their halftracksthey had semi-automatic rifles.

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Cyscott1 you are right but i intially was working on the guard with the SS in mind but German Panzer Grenadiers have even more firepower.

US armored infantrysome Soviet Assault units also had heavy power

BJaffe01

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