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Discussion about ban or limitations

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Right now the Verena-control deck is almost unstoppable. It's not about winning or losing matches, the fact is that now with Und Dokbar + Hidden Grove + Visit the Haunted City, Empire can stop the 95% of decks, not allowing other decks simply to play. So, this archetype it's not only strong, but also blocks other decks.

So, the last year a very lot of people crying and whined to ban the bolt throwers, and they were satisfied. The fact is that RBT decks didn't won ANYTHING! Now Verena-Control is dominating the worldwide metagame.

Due to this facts, why i cannot ask a ban of some cards of verena deck? And why the developers cannot satisfy me?

First of all, banning directly Verena is not fair, but for example:

- The ability of Whilelm of the Osternachkt should be paid 1 or 2 resources, and the target unit should be DEFENDING and not IN THE DEFENDING ZONE. Is very different, and in this way Whilelm would be "normal" and not broken.

- The cost to activate Visit the Haunted City MUST BE to sacrifice the unit. In this way it's not necessary Will of the Electors even to play Verena. Too strong.

- The ability of Pistoliers should be limited to one per turn.

- Judgement of Verena is the biggest problem. But it's also a tactic, and i think it's possibile to limit is effect. At this point maybe could be limited to one or two in deckbuilding.

 

This is not a whine-topic like the RBT ones, it's only a way to discuss and (hopefully) let the designers to repair their evident mistakes.

I'd like to hear your opinion so... let's discuss!

 

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It's hard to take you seriously when you make statements about "the worldwide metagame" and imply that your perceived problem with this deck type is worse than the one with RBT, because that didn't win anything. What exactly has "Verena-Control" won, is that even that relevant to the discussion, and are you sure you aren't overreacting and making assumptions based on what's happening in your meta?

 

That aside, I think that Dwarves and Empire were already the strongest factions, a cycle focused on developments surely seems to favor them, and I'd say they again got the strongest cards in the first pack of that cycle. I hope the developers have a plan to even the odds.

 

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I also played a verena/hidden grove/infiltrate deck and it seems really frustrating for the opponent a lot of times but we have to wait for the circle to develop. I think orc rush with some control can fight against that in it's own way because you can wreck your opponents board too with development control (long winter/stuntys/smash go boom etc.). Getting more than 1 development out of the board in one turn seems really mandatory in the next months. Let's hope that any other faction besides dwarfes and empire, get more tools and benefits, too.

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Empire is a bit on the nasty side now. Empire/dwarf decks are just silly good. They can really put the hurt on. I hope the destruction factions are able to compete as the cycle rolls out. Orks are able to hold their own right now. But, they're the only ones.

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Again, this is another case of over-blown worry over some archetype that's doing well in one player's group vs. how it fares in the broad picture.  You would do just as well to worry about Dark Elf Hex/Card Removal decks.  They're tearing it up around here pretty darn well, too.

The only real gripe I have with the current game and its balance are these 3 things:

1. Destruction still badly needs a Tactics negation or alteration card of some sort.

2. High Elves' Healing ability is still pretty lame.

3. There probably could stand to be a bit more Support destruction, en masse, for the game...at this point.

 

Other than that, I'm pretty happy with how things are...though Dwarves are still a bit too tough.

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 I'm at least 7 packs behind in buying (**** AGoT), and my 50-card dwarf deck stomps all over most of my other decks. My dark-elf necromantic deck (with not one actual elf in it) is roughly equal, while an orc/skaven deck does OK, but not quite even. But it looks like catching up won't change a thing :P

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@Wytefang:

Have to agree onto your real gripes and add following:

4. more consistant themes in the factions and not new subgenres like HE got last battlepack. HE (free unit spawning, return to hand effects, indirect dmg, healing, "spell" tactics) and Chaos (hard hitters, corruption, diseases, hand card attack) are prime examples. I hope that Chaos soon gets a 2 or 3 cost scout unit.

I would really like to see one of these decktypes (deckbuilding forum is really quiet) because I can't image what cards they run with. I don't see how hexes can counter these powerful empire/dwarf starts because in midgame they become rather unimportant. I mean in a normal starting hand* they get at least 4 Resources and draw 2-3 cards in the second turn. Of course you can counter with withering hex or mind killer but you have to get your economy started too or else you will loose in the midgame. Darkelves lack offensive power to end a game early and it would be better if there are other anti building hexes but this time clearing it's textbox, which would be way more useful.

 

* lately following scenarios become quite standard:

empire: derricksburg forge/huntsmen/militia -> visit the haunted city/forges of nuln/protect the empire -> grail knights and that's without innovation or warpstones.

dwarf: everything with mining tunnels is fine, cannon crew nearly always works with something useful. I don't see how to stop them other than using Infiltrate to deny them new cards and neutralise the tunnels.

 

 

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DE is currently my favorite and mort reliable deck. The only times it loses in a big way is when the following things occur.

-2x or 3x early game mining tunnels
-2x Early game Infiltrate
-Multiple RTF late game
-really insane orc hands

I don't mean to be saying DE is the be all end all, but people highly underate the deck, as it is easily tied for the top spot atm.

People have been bitcing about dwarves for a long time, and personally I think they are strong, but at this point I think that 4/6 races are competitively viable. Dwarves and DE are MUCH more reliable due to the fact that they have extreme draw engines compared to other decks. I often find that empire tends to have janky draws which sink the deck on average one out of three games. Visit the Haunted City is a great new addition to the deck, but it's slow and faces the normal issues of quests. In my opinion the main strength that order decks have over destruction is good supports and good support removal. Demolish and Rodrick's just **** on pillage, which is unplayable in chaos or DE because of its double loyalty, and it doesnt even hit devs. Advanced eng. is a great start to balancing supports, but it faces the issue of being neutral and not providing loyalty. A 3C or 3DE 1p1hp that pops a support would not be amiss in this format.  

Aside from the support issue which has plagued the game since its beginning, the growing strength of synergtic cards, and control type decks in general is what is my main worry. I hope to see HE and Chaos gain more combo/rush cards to combat the Empire/DE control decks, which will undoubtably destroy the fun in the game if they become more powerful.

Anywho, just my two cents worth of gloom doom and whatnot. Feel free to point out flaws in my observations. 

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I think the main issue with Visit the Haunted City is that you can move supports especially Warpstone Exvacation (battlefield). It's not so slow as you can play it lots of times in 1st turn, get your 1st resource token for it and get your 2nd token in your 2nd turn. If you play a Verena setup with Hidden Grove it's easy to prevent attacks because all you have to do is holding the battlefield clear of developments and nothing happens (most of the time).

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grille said:

I think the main issue with Visit the Haunted City is that you can move supports especially Warpstone Exvacation (battlefield). It's not so slow as you can play it lots of times in 1st turn, get your 1st resource token for it and get your 2nd token in your 2nd turn.

 

 

Also, "Noble Quest" really speeds it up. Plus, when the new unique neutral card that lets you play two devs from your hand comes out, "Visit the Haunted City" is going to be very fast. Very nasty.

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So post the multifaction decks. :) (I have a nice Empire/Dwarf/Lizard but not really multifaction)

And can someone post a DE one? I have not played against  a good one yet.

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jogo said:

And can someone post a DE one? I have not played against  a good one yet.

There are a number of DE decks in the Deck Building section. I think DE Control is the one most people are referring to as giving Dwarves a handful to handle.

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jogo said:

So post the multifaction decks. :) (I have a nice Empire/Dwarf/Lizard but not really multifaction)

And can someone post a DE one? I have not played against  a good one yet.

I will!...once I build them.  I've been working on a destruction deck based around the number 2  and an order deck designed to lock down the entire game, if possible. lengua.gif

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Wytefang said:

Again, this is another case of over-blown worry over some archetype that's doing well in one player's group vs. how it fares in the broad picture.  You would do just as well to worry about Dark Elf Hex/Card Removal decks.

Can you show me an example of a DE list that can stop Verena as you are saying? I would like to test it and i will be ready to change my opinion if it can really beat Empire-Verena.

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 I'm playin' Empire since the beginning. It was really strong, but not overpowered.

I do play Empire right now. Like it a lot. I like control and aggro-control archetypes. Love this game.

I'm against ban and over-errating...But...

I'd really like to see JoV out of the game, right now.

Playtest a fine-tuned Verena deck. It has no serious opponent.

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While I agree that Judgement is likely the strongest deck type right now I dont see it as ban worthy.  It is still a combo card that can do little on its own without additional cards.  Its a four cost tactic that can be directly stop by either of the high elf tactic cancelers.  There are many cards available that put additional developments into play, some of them can even be used in responce to judgement.

 

It seems like every 2 or 3 battle packs that a thread like this appears swearing that some deck or another is unbeatable and needs to have cards changed or banned.  First it was skaven, then bolt thrower, then dwarves, and now judgement.  All of these decks were strong at the time but none of them were unbeatable, not even the bolt thrower deck.  Certainly each of them was very strong and makes some strategies unplayable but none of them were unbeatable.  Judgement limits deck viability similar to how bolt thrower was, but I feel like there are far more useful answers than there were to thrower.  If any card in W:I is too powerful it is likely Mining Tunnels as it goes into every order deck., yet even it is probably not worth a ban (though I would love to see a ruling that made it so you could only use one even if you had multiples out some how).

 

I would not be surprised to see a thread in a few months begging for a ban on something else when dark elf milling or orc reanimator or some other deck is the strongest deck.

 

TL

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Banning seems like the wrong way but sometimes a soft errata can help. I wouldn't say that I'm a very strong player as I only started playing such a card game when whi was released but for me it's not JoV at the moment what bothers me. Orc and now even Chaos have no real chances to develop against a JoV but they can response to it by getting the opponents developments out of play so that the JoV player also looses a lot of stuff. What bothers me more is the disturbance they play in the early game while they can still develop a resource and card engine. A second turn Rodriks or Infiltrate can completely steal a whole turn 1 or 2.

The "invulnabilty" that empire can get is also, what really annoys me. While Hidden Grove lays out and the Haunted City Quest has at least 2 tokens it's getting nearly impossible to get some damage into empires zones. Chain Lightning is a sure way to completely take out Clan Moulders and nearly everything else that is quick and if you play something big it gets either removed the turn after or your developments are moved/called back whatever and you have no power to attack. Iron Discipline and Churches of Sigmar further shuts down Chaos and Dark Elves unit control options.

I don't want to make the impression that they are unbeatable. Not every deck can get all the listed cards above into one or rahter the player doesn't have each card at once on hand. They can still get a not so optimal draw and when playing fast you can get a win but overall empire is a big pile of options and can manage a lot of things at once.

Let's wait some battlepacks and maybe everything turns out a bit more even. I guess a discard deck could work and things like Troll Vomit, Invoke Khaines Wrath or something else that doesn't directly target units or maybe a deck build around Rock Lobber or something like that. But those would probably loose against those standard dwarf decks. I see it as a challenge to find something against the strong decks and right now there are a lot destruction decks that really are fun to play. I always disliked orcrush but now with the development control factor it's not just purely laying out the cheapest stuff that does the most damage in the shortest time. So not everything that came in the last battlepacks is bad. My playgroup is happy about the new cards after this long period of time without something new.

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 The point is not Verena itself...Is that it's a deck that, in a way or another, can be built with a little effort by anyone...Then, playin' it is not simple, but it's not difficult to figure out the core of a Verena deck. 

And it's **** "solid" and fast: turn 3, you're locked...The funny thing is that it's a build that can easily stall the game without Verena.,.Anyway, without JoV would be **** worst for it, but good for everyone else. ;)

As I repeatedly say in the past, I don't like bans and I don't like lots of erratas around...But here some "divine intervention" is needed. ;)

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 Its a four cost tactic that can be directly stop by either of the high elf tactic cancelers. There are many cards available that put additional developments into play, some of them can even be used in responce to judgement.

That's part of the problem. Every card that can directly counter JoV is an order-only card (unless I forgot about any), while the best the destruction decks can hope for is to take down developments to even out the damage. The forrest spirit mechanic adds further insult to injury.

That being said, I'm fairly optimistic that this cycle might do something with it yet.

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I also feel like destruction needs some kind of tactic cancel or damage cancel.  I wouldnt say that judgement is any more powerful right now than reclaim is.  Both dwarves and empire are very strong right now largely do to this very powerful tactics.  However, dwarves and empire are also probably the best factions at building up their economies in the early game so that makes it easier for them to fuel their powerful strategies than it is for other decks to counter them.

 

Things have been improving for the other factions though, I personally feel like chaos and high elves both got some powerful and interesting cards in this last battle pack.

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as soon as destruction gets a tactic canceller people are whining in threads that order decks aren't the best anymore....

due to this LCG concept the meta changes slowly, the designers cannot balance all the factions every new release again and again. it takes some time, and I doubt we will here anyone complain about verena decks in 6 months. Don't whine, but learn to adjust and see it as a challenge to beat the "best" decks.

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I agree with Primus there's a lot of new cards on the table right now. The biggest threat I see is from the disorder players but that's simply because I haven't had time to check out their new goodies.

This haunted city, judgement thingy how exactly does it work? We haven't had a player here in Augusta exploit anything like that yet. I do use haunted city, judgement of verenia in my own empire deck but I haven't seen anything game breaking from just those two cards but then again I have been focusing on the kinghts and knightly zone shuffle.

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