Effects of plot cards

[Kzar Otto 0]

 Hi, I`m a new player and I have some doubts about some rules concerning the effects of plot cards.

If not specified in the card, do they generally effect all players or just the card ower?

Example 1 : Planning Ahead - skip the taxation phase this round - Do all players skip the taxation or just the player who revealed the plot?

Example 2: Power of blood - noble caracters cannot be killed - Are all noble characters protected, including my opponent's?

Example 3: Holding the trident - While you control fewer characters than any opponent, each character you control gets +2 str - Does this apply to all players? If i have more cards then my opponent in a 2 player game, does he get +2 str? Why?

Now for the big problem. Example 4: Snowed under - At the beggining of the standing phase, choose one kneeling character or location controlled by each player. Return all chosen cards to their owner's hands - Only I choose the cards? Or in a 2 player game, do both players choose a kneeling card from each player (4 total cards)? Why? Why is it different then "Planning Ahead".

Thanks in advance.

[ktom 598]

Kzar Otto said:

If not specified in the card, do they generally effect all players or just the card ower?

Yes. Like any other card type, effects are generally global unless they specify otherwise. Keep in mind that cards are always read from the point of view of the controller of the card (so "you" means "controller").

Consider Winterfell Castle: "Each of your Stark characters gets +1 STR." Plain to see that this only refers to Stark characters that you control because that's what it specifically says. Compare that to Melisandre from the Core Set: "While Melisandre is standing, Asshai characters get +1 STR." That just talks about Asshai characters without any reference to who controls them. You don't get to add in or assume details that are not provided in the card text, so her "get +1 STR" will apply to any Asshai character in play, whether it is controlled by the same player who controls Mel or not.

The other thing to keep in mind here is that  those examples are all constant effects. A passive or triggered effect is going to be different. You have to consider the context of a passive or triggered effect, which typically activate or initiate at a particular point in game-time. When an effect initiates and tells a player to do something (like "kill" or "choose"), it typically refers only to the controller of the effect - unless it specifies something global (like, say, Valar Morghulis which says "kill all characters in play" or Westeros Bleeds which says "discard all characters from play").

Fairly easy to see on non-plot cards, right? Well, plots are the same way. Let's take a look at the individual plots you name:

Kzar Otto said:

Example 1 : Planning Ahead - skip the taxation phase this round - Do all players skip the taxation or just the player who revealed the plot?

This is a constant effect, not a passive effect. More to the point, it has no trigger (like "when revealed," or "at the end of the standing phase"). So it applies to everyone. On an even more general note, there is only 1 Taxation phase in the round. It's not like Player #1 has Taxation Phase #1 and Player #2 has Taxation Phase #2. There is only the one, shared phase. So you cannot have just 1 player "skip" an entire phase. You could have 1 player not return gold to the treasury during the phase, but if the entire phase is gone for one player, it is gone for all. That's just the phases work.

BTW: Don't confuse each player's "turn" in the Marshaling or Challenge phase for separate phases for each player; there is just one phase with each player taking a turn. You could skip your "turn" in the phase without affecting the other players, but you cannot skip the "phase" for just one player. (And note that players do not take "turns" in the Taxation phase.)

Kzar Otto said:

Example 2: Power of blood - noble caracters cannot be killed - Are all noble characters protected, including my opponent's?

Again, this is a constant effect. Just like Melisandre, there is no reference to who controls the character, so you do not read details into the text that are not there. All Noble characters, no matter who controls them, are protected by the plot.

Kzar Otto said:

Example 3: Holding the trident - While you control fewer characters than any opponent, each character you control gets +2 str - Does this apply to all players? If i have more cards then my opponent in a 2 player game, does he get +2 str? Why?

This is also a constant effect, although it is conditioned upon controlling fewer characters than each opponent. (Pretty much the same thing as Melisandre having the "while standing" requirement.) However, not that, like Winterfell Castle, the text specifically talks about you and characters you control. As mentioned earlier, you always read the card text from the point of view of the person who controls the card. So this plot specifically refers to an individual player ("you," as the controller) and thus only applies to that individual player, not to all players.

Kzar Otto said:

Now for the big problem. Example 4: Snowed under - At the beggining of the standing phase, choose one kneeling character or location controlled by each player. Return all chosen cards to their owner's hands - Only I choose the cards? Or in a 2 player game, do both players choose a kneeling card from each player (4 total cards)? Why? Why is it different then "Planning Ahead".

This is a passive effect. "At the beginning of the challenge phase," it initiates and instructs a player to do something ("choose" kneeling cards). As mentioned above, passive effects are assumed to only initiate for the controller of the card, not for every player, unless otherwise specified (unlike the constant effects which apply to everything in play unless otherwise specified). So at the beginning of the standing phase, only the controller of the plot chooses/returns kneeling cards. You should be able to see the difference between this (a passive effect that only initiates at a specific time for the controller of the card) and "Planning Ahead" (a constant effect that impacts the entire game by removing a shared game phase while it is in play).

Hope that helps. The cliff-note version of all that is:

1. Constant effects apply to every eligible card in the game unless otherwise specified.
2. The words "you" and "your" are very basic examples of "otherwise specified."
3. Passive effects and triggered effects are assumed to only initiate for their controllers unless otherwise specified.

[Kzar Otto 0]

 Thank you very much for the explanation. So it`s basically the assumption that constant effects apply to all and passive and triggered effects apply to you. Off to play then... Thanks again

[Winged_Human 0]

Since we're on the topic of Plot effects I have a few questions

1) theres a plot (I can't remember the name) that only allows each player to put one card into play during the turn.  Does this affect cards coming into shadows, cards going into shadows, playing an epic plot card or using event cards during the challenges phase?

 

2) City Cards: these usually have a "Do X where X is the number of plot cards in your used pile".  My question here is once a plot card is revealed does it immediately go to the used pile, or is it only in the used pile once the turn in which it was revealed is over?

 

Thanks for the info.

 

[Saturnine 47]

Winged_Human said:

Since we're on the topic of Plot effects I have a few questions

1) theres a plot (I can't remember the name) that only allows each player to put one card into play during the turn.  Does this affect cards coming into shadows, cards going into shadows, playing an epic plot card or using event cards during the challenges phase?

You're probably thinking of Fear of Winter, which reads "Each player cannot play or put into play more than 1 card from his or her hand until you reveal a new plot card." Playing a card into Shadows does count against this limitation (you are playing it from your hand). Bringing a card out of Shadows does not count against this limitation (you are not playing it from your hand, you are putting it into play from Shadows). All events, with Epic Battle trait or without (there's no "epic" plot), count against this limitation when they are played from your hand.

 

Winged_Human said:

 

2) City Cards: these usually have a "Do X where X is the number of plot cards in your used pile".  My question here is once a plot card is revealed does it immediately go to the used pile, or is it only in the used pile once the turn in which it was revealed is over?

The FAQ says: "During the game a plot card exists in one of three possible states: in your plot deck, in your used pile, or revealed. Unless prevented by other card effects, a player's revealed plot card moves to his or her used pile immediately whenever a new plot card is revealed from that player's plot deck."

So the first City plot you play will not count itself for its effect.

[Rogue30 60]

Saturnine said:

So the first City plot you play will not count itself for its effect.

Just to be clear: neither (currently revealed) City plot counts itself for its X effect.

[Saturnine 47]

Rogue30 said:

Saturnine said:

 

So the first City plot you play will not count itself for its effect.

 

 

Just to be clear: neither (currently revealed) City plot counts itself for its X effect.

 

Very true.

[Winged_Human 0]

So then regardless of how you play it, there will always be a city plot where it's text box is effectivly "0"?

[Maester_LUke 0]

Winged_Human said:

So then regardless of how you play it, there will always be a city plot where it's text box is effectivly "0"?

Except for City of Shadows, 3-6-1, which puts up to 2 cards into shadows from your hand, without regard to the number of City plots in your used pile.

 

Also, with regard to the Epic Battle event cards, there is a Player Action Window both Before & After revealing your plot card, so you can play the event then, subsequently reveal Fear of Winter and still be able to play/put into play one more card that turn.

[Mathias Fricot 0]

which is what starkepicsiege used, because they would mulligan into an epic event if necessary, setup lots of military weenies (Hungry Mob, Bolton Refugees, Shaggydog, Direwolf Pup, The Hound) play it, reveal Fear of Winter turn 1, claim 2 military, get some power, epic military, claim some power, follow with a second turn Rule by Decree for hand destruction, and by that point you are usually about 6 power south of them.