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SubtleCadaver

Why bother with Rogue Trader?

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Hi everyone.

One of my friends doesn't like the concept of Rogue Trader because (paraphrased quote) "They could've done the same thing with a ship expansion book for Dark Heresy; it's not vastly different to DH like Deathwatch is."

Now, I don't think he's actually read the book since there are many things different (namely the classes, Acquisition, Xenos PCs, etc.) but he just doesn't like the concept of ship combat at all, and...

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how do you think I could try to... Well, not change his mind, but at least get him to see it in a better light - without essentially begging him to read the book. In what ways would you say it's different?

Thanks, everyone. I hope my question isn't too vague.

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SubtleCadaver said:

Hi everyone.

One of my friends doesn't like the concept of Rogue Trader because (paraphrased quote) "They could've done the same thing with a ship expansion book for Dark Heresy; it's not vastly different to DH like Deathwatch is."

Now, I don't think he's actually read the book since there are many things different (namely the classes, Acquisition, Xenos PCs, etc.) but he just doesn't like the concept of ship combat at all, and...

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how do you think I could try to... Well, not change his mind, but at least get him to see it in a better light - without essentially begging him to read the book. In what ways would you say it's different?

Thanks, everyone. I hope my question isn't too vague.

One is Space Conqustadors and one is Space KGB. Dosent seem very similar.

Personally I think Deathwatch is more similar to Dark Heresy on steroids (actually, steroids, gene-tweaking, and massive augmentation) than Rogue Trader is similar to Dark Heresy. DW and DH have a big element of 'somebody orders you to' that is completely absent in RT.

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RT to me is DnD-style 40k.  DH means you being an acolyte pretty much being destined to go insane/get corrupted/murdered with very little personal resources being ordered around at the whimsy of some Inquisitor who'll share as little as possible with you and then punish you for doing the best you could.  DH Acolyte's are expendable, plain and simple.

RT is a crew of strong-minded individuals who are out to carve their name into the stars, see sights unseen, explore the unknown and make a profit doing so.  Whereass you as GM can tell a DH acolyte: go there and do that, it doesn't work that way in RT.  A RT chooses his own path which means if you want to go out and explore, that's what you do.  If you want to hunt pirates, that's what you do.  If you want to infiltrate and destroy a rival rogue trader ... that's what you do.  You are not destined to die (though there's still a big chance), rather you are a unique individual with raw singular talent that can do one of two things: make his name into a legend or become a burning star that went by as quickly as it came.

In my experience, ship combat is but a small part of rogue trader due to the rather ugly mechanics.  It takes to **** long to include it a lot.

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Actually, I think your friend is partially right.

Rogue Trader could easily have been a supplement for Dark Heresy.

Some of the additions you mentions, such as Xenos PCs could be in a supplement for DH as well.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

Actually, I think your friend is partially right.

Rogue Trader could easily have been a supplement for Dark Heresy.

Some of the additions you mentions, such as Xenos PCs could be in a supplement for DH as well.

technically, so could Deathwatch then.

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SubtleCadaver said:

 

Hi everyone.

One of my friends doesn't like the concept of Rogue Trader because (paraphrased quote) "They could've done the same thing with a ship expansion book for Dark Heresy; it's not vastly different to DH like Deathwatch is.

 

 

He's a simple minded tool.  The big difference in Rogue Trader is that the players, more importantly the Rogue Trader, set the agenda.  In Deathwatch and Dark Heresy, the GM does.  Nearly 1/3rd of the armory and ship items in Rogue Trader are "big picture", they have almost zero utility to the actual character or ship, but they turn your flagship into a mining vessel capable of producing its own armory of ships and weapons, or turning it into a massive broadcasting beacon of the Emperor's Glory, converting heathens, or turning it into a planet-destroying grim reaper.    Some people just aren't thinkers or roleplayers though, and want a DERP dungeon crawl.  **** them.

The average DH campaign: Investigate conspiracy, uncover corruption, purge corruption

The average DW campaign: Cleanse. Purge. Yawn.  

The average RT campaign: The Star Wars trilogy, minus the sappy parts.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

Actually, I think your friend is partially right.

Rogue Trader could easily have been a supplement for Dark Heresy.

Some of the additions you mentions, such as Xenos PCs could be in a supplement for DH as well.

And, but for order of release, Dark Heresy could have been a supplement for Rogue Trader.

They were released and designed as separate games; the practical result when actually playing is more than the system at the heart, no different from how Unreal Tournament, Gears of War and Bulletstorm all play differently even though they all employ the Unreal Engine to drive their physics, sound and graphics. Having run all three (and helped develop Black Crusade), the tone and feel of each game is different and distinct, and deliberately so.

Yeah, they could easily have been supplements for one-another... but those would be some pretty big supplements.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Actually, I think your friend is partially right.

Rogue Trader could easily have been a supplement for Dark Heresy.

Some of the additions you mentions, such as Xenos PCs could be in a supplement for DH as well.

 

 

And, but for order of release, Dark Heresy could have been a supplement for Rogue Trader.

They were released and designed as separate games; the practical result when actually playing is more than the system at the heart, no different from how Unreal Tournament, Gears of War and Bulletstorm all play differently even though they all employ the Unreal Engine to drive their physics, sound and graphics. Having run all three (and helped develop Black Crusade), the tone and feel of each game is different and distinct, and deliberately so.

Yeah, they could easily have been supplements for one-another... but those would be some pretty big supplements.

Mention to him the fact that the very first 40K game was originally called "Warhammer 40000: Rogue Trader", and that if anything Dark Heresy should be a add on to Rogue Trader, as the original game was about exploring the 40K Universe, and quite simply Inquisitor's do not explore (Infact I'm not sure they like the very Idea of exploring) I'm fonder of Dark Heresy than I am of Deathwatch (though it it a gorgeous book).

Impress to him that the scope of the game  is much larger than any single supplement could ever hope to achieve

Dark Heresy: Kill the Heretic/Mutant/Witch! (Quietly)

                      Purge The Xenos!(Quietly)

                      Cast down the Daemon! (Quietly....if you can)

Deathwatch     Purge the Xenos. And again. AND AGAIN! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA

                        And in your free period also some heretic and daemon target Practice.

 

Rogue Trader:  Explore realms of the void for the Emprah! (Or your enjoyment!)

                         Conquer New Worlds/Fight Enemies of man for the Emprah! (Or just because you can!)

                         Convert the Heathern in the name of the Emprah! (Or else just sell them as slaves)

                         Trade in valuable commodities for the Emprah! (And a nice bit of skimming of the profits..)

                         Steal or smuggle illegal shipping in the name of......well maybe not...

Better still let him play the Rogue Trader and tell him that out there in the void "He speaks with the Emperors voice!" .

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Fortinbras said:

SubtleCadaver said:

 

Hi everyone.

One of my friends doesn't like the concept of Rogue Trader because (paraphrased quote) "They could've done the same thing with a ship expansion book for Dark Heresy; it's not vastly different to DH like Deathwatch is.

 

 

He's a simple minded tool.  The big difference in Rogue Trader is that the players, more importantly the Rogue Trader, set the agenda.  In Deathwatch and Dark Heresy, the GM does.  Nearly 1/3rd of the armory and ship items in Rogue Trader are "big picture", they have almost zero utility to the actual character or ship, but they turn your flagship into a mining vessel capable of producing its own armory of ships and weapons, or turning it into a massive broadcasting beacon of the Emperor's Glory, converting heathens, or turning it into a planet-destroying grim reaper.    Some people just aren't thinkers or roleplayers though, and want a DERP dungeon crawl.  **** them.

The average DH campaign: Investigate conspiracy, uncover corruption, purge corruption

The average DW campaign: Cleanse. Purge. Yawn.  

The average RT campaign: The Star Wars trilogy, minus the sappy parts.

 

Tell us how you really feel!

I agree with you.  Lol.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Actually, I think your friend is partially right.

Rogue Trader could easily have been a supplement for Dark Heresy.

Some of the additions you mentions, such as Xenos PCs could be in a supplement for DH as well.

 

 

And, but for order of release, Dark Heresy could have been a supplement for Rogue Trader.

They were released and designed as separate games; the practical result when actually playing is more than the system at the heart, no different from how Unreal Tournament, Gears of War and Bulletstorm all play differently even though they all employ the Unreal Engine to drive their physics, sound and graphics. Having run all three (and helped develop Black Crusade), the tone and feel of each game is different and distinct, and deliberately so.

Yeah, they could easily have been supplements for one-another... but those would be some pretty big supplements.

Not necessarily "big" supplements. But most of Rogue Trader could have been done in 250 pages. What takes up the bulk of the book? Character generation/careers/talents/skills/gear/psykers/base rules.

Truthfully, other then a personal overall dislike on how Rogue Trader feels (the classes, the DnD vibe and so forth) my only real wish for changes in RT would be the following: List them as ranks 5-12 instead of 1-8 (to synch with DH) and keep the XP awards/expenditures/costs on the same scale as DH as well.

But that is all secondary. I have already done all the work I have needed to translate RT into a DH supplement (alternate career ranks and so forth).

I was just refering to what his friend said. RT could have been a supplement for DH. So play up that angle. In the course of a DH game the acolytes have to infiltrate a Rogue Trader vessel to investigate a Rogue Trader (or senior crew member) who the Inquisitor believes is a cultist/daemon worshipper or out and out daemon or something.

Bam, now the DH characters are playing RT for a while as their investigation takes place within the travels of the ship.

And as another side note: I do believe that Dark Heresy would be a better supplement for Rogue Trader instead of vice versa. I think RT would have been a better stepping off point if they would have done it that way.

In the end, they didnt, and no amount of wishing will change that. But a little writting, a little thinking, and you can have it that way.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

Not necessarily "big" supplements. But most of Rogue Trader could have been done in 250 pages. What takes up the bulk of the book? Character generation/careers/talents/skills/gear/psykers/base rules.

That is true for any and all games of this franchise, though, and Black Crusade will be similar - simply because they were all envisioned as stand-alones.

 

In general I agree with SubtleCadaver, though I do have to point out that you can tweak every game to move away a bit from the basics.

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The first big difference I noticed was SCALE.

Everything is massive, including the power each player controls. 

As an example, while waiting for the last player to arrive, one Void Master (the Pilot) said: "While the Ship is in Drydock, I'm training up my pilots. And I want a Fury Interceptor." We discussed this for a bit and he made his acquisitions roll on both.

Then the other Void Master (the Mistress of Augers) asked: "He has a staff? Can I have a staff too?"

Me (GM): "Of course. Lots of people work on the auger arrays and they all report to you. Want to train the senior people, say the top 100?"

Mistress of Augers: "Yes. And I want my own spy-plane. The one from Into the Storm with all the sensors." She rolls on the acquisitions, succeeds, gets her Chiropteran Scout, and we proceed.

"**** it!" says the Arch Militant. "I missed my roll on the Leman Russ Battle Tank. At least I equipped my Ghost Legion with two Rhinos."

And that's just shopping. In game, they get to use all their toys and minions. 

As a GM, you need to challenge these people with their starship and near-infinite underlings. It doesn't GM like any other role playing game I've ever run. 

Each ship is a flying city. The players have tens of thousands of people under their command. When they come to a new world, they don't look for a few cultists. They deal with planetary leaders, powerful Magos, and leaders of pirate fleets. Instead of a gang, they deal with crime syndicates that span the Expanse and the Calixis Sector. The scale is welded to 11.

As a GM, you still have to make it personal. Who are their friends? Who wants to kill them? Assassins can hit them at any time. The child that is the lone survivor of a Chaos attack on their colony can touch their hearts. I found using player character backstory key to keeping a game of this scale emotionally compelling.

 

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SubtleCadaver said:

Hi everyone.

One of my friends doesn't like the concept of Rogue Trader because (paraphrased quote) "They could've done the same thing with a ship expansion book for Dark Heresy; it's not vastly different to DH like Deathwatch is."

Now, I don't think he's actually read the book since there are many things different (namely the classes, Acquisition, Xenos PCs, etc.) but he just doesn't like the concept of ship combat at all, and...

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how do you think I could try to... Well, not change his mind, but at least get him to see it in a better light - without essentially begging him to read the book. In what ways would you say it's different?

Thanks, everyone. I hope my question isn't too vague.

 

I'm going into this thinking your friend is a big fan of Dark Heresy because of his comment. Basically you remind him what Dark Heresy is about: being a person just slightly above your everyday joe working through an oppressive society to fix it. You work to fix the Imperium from within without thanks and you'll most likely die an unknown amongths countless billions. Then you expand on that and say that in Rogue Trader you are a hero-king working to push the borders of the Imperium forward. You speak with the kind imperial elite a common acolyte would never have access to, people that have the ability to shape the destinies of entire Segmentum. Most importantly you have the incredible freedom to forge your own destiny and that of others. If you want to set out on a years long journey from Scintilla to Macragge on the other side of the galaxy, crushing the enemies of the emperor along the way you actually have the freedom to do so.

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Nojo509 said:

The first big difference I noticed was SCALE.

Everything is massive, including the power each player controls. 

As an example, while waiting for the last player to arrive, one Void Master (the Pilot) said: "While the Ship is in Drydock, I'm training up my pilots. And I want a Fury Interceptor." We discussed this for a bit and he made his acquisitions roll on both.

Then the other Void Master (the Mistress of Augers) asked: "He has a staff? Can I have a staff too?"

Me (GM): "Of course. Lots of people work on the auger arrays and they all report to you. Want to train the senior people, say the top 100?"

Mistress of Augers: "Yes. And I want my own spy-plane. The one from Into the Storm with all the sensors." She rolls on the acquisitions, succeeds, gets her Chiropteran Scout, and we proceed.

"**** it!" says the Arch Militant. "I missed my roll on the Leman Russ Battle Tank. At least I equipped my Ghost Legion with two Rhinos."

And that's just shopping. In game, they get to use all their toys and minions. 

As a GM, you need to challenge these people with their starship and near-infinite underlings. It doesn't GM like any other role playing game I've ever run. 

Each ship is a flying city. The players have tens of thousands of people under their command. When they come to a new world, they don't look for a few cultists. They deal with planetary leaders, powerful Magos, and leaders of pirate fleets. Instead of a gang, they deal with crime syndicates that span the Expanse and the Calixis Sector. The scale is welded to 11.

As a GM, you still have to make it personal. Who are their friends? Who wants to kill them? Assassins can hit them at any time. The child that is the lone survivor of a Chaos attack on their colony can touch their hearts. I found using player character backstory key to keeping a game of this scale emotionally compelling.

 

Which is why, for me, its the best of the three (four). 

PCs are movers and shakers who make their own destiny and span the stars in true 40k style.

 

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SubtleCadaver said:

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, how do you think I could try to... Well, not change his mind, but at least get him to see it in a better light - without essentially begging him to read the book. In what ways would you say it's different?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.  If this friend of your prefers DH and DW over RT that's his buisness.  You can run an RT game without him if you want to run an RT game.

If his only objection to the system is the inclusion of ship combat, I'm sure you can run a game of RT without ship to ship combat.  Just marginalize it and focus the action on planetary encounters.

If he's fine with ship to ship and just doesn't want to buy another book or something then you can offer to lend him yours for reference so he doesn't need to.

At the end of the day, you can lead your friend to water but you can't make him drink.  Tell him about the Xeno PCs, tell him about the putting players in control of their own destiny thing, tell him about all the ways RT is different from the overly IMperial DH and DW.  If he's still not interested, let it go.  You can't make him enjoy the game if he refuses to give it a chance.

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I really don't see how RT is close to DH esle then the basic rules.

 

One is a simple empire management, plus epic secotr control turf war.

The other is chlututech in 40k universe. 

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