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Rorschach Six

Reckless Dice Podcast Episode 4: Careers and Nurgle

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Giztman and I are back with guest Strolling Bones. We discuss careers in our System Spotlight. Our Main Topic continues our tour of the Ruinous Powers by exploring Father Nurgle (ew). Also we check out some news including the new Eratta/FAQ and answer your questions.

Thanks everyone for listening and your feedback!

 

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Got an idea, when you've done episodes on all the chaos gods you should just compile the information into one cast so we get an "all 4 chaos gods podcast". Or maybe just break out the chaos god stuff into 4 small casts. So you can listen to the chaos god stuff only.

I'd like this because if I'm to use a Nurgle cult for example I could listen to that part only (without having to try to find the right spot in the casts) and get inspired for my cultists/daemons (I know, I'm a bit lazy).

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I will listen to the whole cast, as I have with every cast (and will do with every future cast). :) I just wanted to have an easy way to listen to for example listen to the Nurgle part a second time as preparation for a Nurgle-cult inspired adventure. But yes, segment times in the show notes would do the trick.

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Dear Reckless Dice,

I just listened to your 4th episode.  First off all, thank you for continually putting out a quality podcast week after week.  Currently, there's little content on the web discussing WFRP 3e so it's nice to have an on-going, in-depth discussion about a game we all love.  I do have one comment/criticism, however.  It's regarding the opening sequence addressing FFG's editing woes and the latest Errata/FAQ release:

I felt your discussion of this topic was almost apologetic toward FFG.  I won't say it hit a "fanboy" level, but it came close, and this is the first time I've sensed that level of bias in any of your episodes.  I realize this is my preference, but I'm looking for an objective discussion of the game, flaws and all.  Without such constructive feedback from outside sources, I don't see how FFG will be pressured to fix what are serious problems within its design process.  Right now I'd wager that quality control is the number one issue facing WFRP 3e.  If this problem isn't addressed, I'm afraid the game line will suffer.

Rather than tackle this "controversial" topic, I found your analysis tended to brush over the problem with comments like it doesn't break a game session, or that the GM can deal with it, or at least FFG was quick to put out an errata so the player base should be content.  If we weren't fans of the game, would we really tolerate such sloppy standards?  What if you purchased a new electronic device where only half the functions worked properly?  Would you be so quick to dismiss the company's error if all they did was put out a PDF that said "we're sorry" (which is basically what FFG has done - see below).

I don't want to be critical without offering some constructive elements, so here are some more probing questions I think you could have asked/explored in this episode:

1) Why are people upset with FFG's poor quality control, and how do such errors affect the players of WFRP 3e differently than traditional, book-based RPG?  We all know that RPGs are difficult to edit, and historically they have been plagued with typos and other errors.  But WFRP 3e is not your average RPG.  It's approach to how you interact with the game's mechanics is unique, and so errors with this game present unique challenges.

When a book-based RPG has an error, a company can put out an errata and call it good.  In return, the players print off the appropriate info and put it into a binder or slip it into their book.  This kind of thing has been going on for, well, forever.  But with a card-based RPG like WFRP, the resolution isn't so simple.  The rules are on the cards - nice-looking, well-made cards at that - so printing something off at home can seem like a sub-standard fix.  In the end, you either have cards that don't look and feel the same, or you have pages in a book, which is exactly the opposite experience a card-based RPG is trying to provide.

2) With so many rules printed on cards, when the cards are in error it really hampers the flow of play.  This is doubly true when trying to introduce WFRP to a new audience who may be coming from a boardgame background as opposed to veteran RPGers (which I think was one of FFG's goals with 3rd edition).  Boardgamers and people inexperienced with RPGs probably aren't used to having incorrect rules staring at them in the face - and this can be a big turn off to selling the game to new players.

3) The cards are supposed to be a quick rules resource, sitting in front of you during a session and thereby eliminating the need to reference a book. But when the cards are wrong, what good are they?  At this point, we are paying a premium for boxed sets full of components that are faulty.  And I do mean all the components.  Even if some cards are wrong and some are right, you still need to bring out the book to double-check the rules, thereby eliminating the reason for the cards in the first place.

4) FFG's response to the problem has been to put up downloadable PDFs of the errata'ed cards on their site.  Is this adequate?  Does this meet FFG's reputation as a company that fixes its mistakes and takes care of its customers?  I would argue that no, it doesn't.

One big draw of FFG games is the high-production values, and WFRP 3e is no exception.  It's a beautiful game, with all of the flashy bits and components that people have come to expect from this company.  And make no mistake - we are paying for that quality.  Therefore, when those high-cost components come flawed right out of the box, and in return we are told to use something printed off from our home printer, I can understand the backlash.  It's not the same level of quality that we have come to expect when playing an FFG game, and it's not what the WFRP's customer base paid for.

Perhaps in another episode you guys could take a second look at this issue and discuss why it's a real problem for WFRP 3e.

Sincerely,

Yipe

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Hey Yipe, thanks a bunch for the well measured feedback. I'm going to speak for myself here since that's what the podcast is, a set of sometimes differing opinions discussing a common topic. If Gitzman or Strolling Bones want's to weigh in they're welcome to, I'm not "speaking for RDP" here.

I hope we develop a reputation as fans of WFRPv3 but we continue to show that we're not slavishly spouting FFG propaganda. We talked about the issues with copy editing and I explicitly said I thought the guides and vaults were rushed. Last episode I was freely discussing my issues with Witch's Song namely how it's tied to one location and difficult to include in an ongoing campaign. But at it's core in order to put in the work we do for no pay and little fame we have to be fans of the game. You'll be able to tell the day I get fed up with WFRP because that's the day I leave the podcast (that or I've run out of things to say happy.gif).

I've read the frustration many people have expressed here on the boards and perhaps we glossed over that a bit. But for me, I was honest in my assessment:

  • The products seemed rushed.
  • For the amount of data they compiled, formatted, and printed in a short amount of time I thought they did an good job avoiding errors.
  • The errors in the products were not game breaking and most could be figured out.
  • They came out with an eratta within 8 weeks of release.

Does FFG need to do better in the future? Sure. Hell, even WoTC has admitted to a number of errors and quality problems lately and has scaled back releases for this year. And if they get worse and not better then that should be discussed at length. But today I truly do not believe we've reached any kind of tipping point because I see the efforts FFG is doing to make things right and Witch's Song from my multiple reads seems error free.

Thanks again for listening. I hope we can continue to meet your standards for what you're looking for out of a WFRPv3 podcast.

-Paul "Rorschach"

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Dear Rorschach Six,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

I realize that my post was quite lengthy, and perhaps that made my comments appear more critical of the overall episode than I intended.  My goal was to tackle a hot-button issue with clear and dispassionate language, but I'm not sure I succeeded in that regard.  On the other hand, your reply was even-handed and appropriate, and I agree with the majority of your assessment regarding the errors.  I can tell that your opinion is based on the facts of the situation and less on emotion, which is probably where I'm coming from.

Perhaps a question to discuss down the line is whether or not FFG should provide replacement cards and components (like they have done for their boardgames)?  Or is a high-rez PDF that you can print off yourself adequate?  Also, what would be the best way to distribute such replacement bits?

On a related topic, I wouldn't worry for a second about meeting my standards for your podcast (I'm just one person after all).  In the end, you should do it for your own enjoyment - I know that I'll listen regardless!  Plus, your actual play sessions are both entertaining and insightful.

Keep up the great work.

Sincerely,

Yipe

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Well i guess i'll chime in too lol =)

Great feedback Yipe, very well thought out.  You make a lot of excellent points, and im going to try and give my opinion on the 'quality' issues at hand.

I think it is easy to get upset at the issues, hell some are even comical.  But to be honest, none of them really bother me a bit.  Sure it would be nice if they werent there, but i dont run into problems that slow me down and they are easily overlooked.  Now i know this is certainly NOT the opinion of many other players and i can respect that.  But for me, it sucks but its understandable.  They rushed it, like they have every other product to date.  They have ALL had similar typos and inconsistencies. 

A pretty product with typos and inconsistencies is what i come to expect from FFG based on what they have consistently delivered.  So when i see the new vaults and newer products falling in line, i am not surprised, they have met my expectations.

Now obviously this is not the expectation FFG should be setting, but hey we have little control over that =).

FAQ & Errata are an appropriate response to fix these types of issues.  I would not anticipate reprinting of cards or other more elaborate changes.  Perhaps in the future when a reprint is needed some issues may be addressed, but honestly, i think this is all we are getting for now.

So to sum up, yea its a bummer, but for me personally, i dont really care, all the other cool stuff SO outways the problems. =)

Gitzman

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@Yipe

aplauso.gif Agreed on all counts

 

@ Gitzman

Yeah I agree that the game has lots of cool stuff in it and the errors while extremely annoying to myself are not game breaking. However it really sucks that after paying for flashy components that some of these components are now regulated to the status of flashy crap and are unusable as provided in the product. While it's true I can print myself a corrected copy from a "high quality" pdf so generously provided by Fantasy Flight, why should I have to settle for a sub-par copy when I already paid for a high quality factory print? I payed between $30-100 for a product would it really hurt FF's profit margin to such a great degree that the thought of mailing out errata printed cards to paying customers and or providing them to FLGS at the cost of under US $1 such an unthinkable process?

Frankly it is not a big deal that mistakes were made, the problem is how FF handles it's Public Relations, it advertises itself as a manufacturer of "High Quality" games, it charges a premium price for "High Quality" products and then when errors are found it issues sub-par solutions to minimize it's costs and essentially says "deal with it" When consumer criticism hit's the boards FF's official reaction is silence, waiting for the whole thing to blow over til the next product release, rinse and repeat Ad Nauseum and do so with the hope that many of it's customers will have your attitude and just "settle" expecting most release's to be a little buggy at best. I hope this business strategy delivers for FF the results they desire but as for me FF slogan has down graded to "Buyer Beware"

Otherwise Great Pod-Cast by the way, big thumbs up!

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I must say I agree with everyone here on one level or another. I agree with Yipe and Heretek that replacement cards should be included in some future expansions (as with Descent for example), I can't see that it would be hard for FFG to put out replacement cards for those that have been erratad, they are quite few so it should not be a major cost to include them in Omens of War or whatever (what is there like, 5 cards up to date).

I've printed the erratad cards and put them into my deck protectors, the colors on my prints is far from the quality of FFG's cards, but it works. Still I think there should be replacements as I mentioned previously. Why wouldn't there? I mean for Descent there were way more cards that were faulty, and all of the faulty ones were re-printed for a later expansion, thus eliminating the problem once and for all.

As voices on the forums are upset with the editing it feels like FFG should do this to earn some goodwill (or at least offset the effect of badwill), I'd be very happy for replacement cards for one. My player with the double strike card would be happy to and the one playing a bright wizard for a time actually considered playing with the old version of the Aqshy talent card, even though it sucks compared to the erratad one. To sum up, these things matter a lot to players/GMs and FFG should be aware of that.

Also as I have studied marketing I can say that a lot of theory speak of how to handle public relations when you've made mistakes. To sumarize most of them agree that if you manage your mistakes in a good way you might even gain from it as people start trusting that you (as a company) will do the right thing. This is what we felt when we got replacement cards for our Descent game. From saying "this editing sucks" to "FFG is the best board game manifacturer" practically over night. I think they would actually gain more in the end from supplying reprints (as they supplied new dice in the beginning when some of the dice in the core boxes were below standards).

But on the other hand I agree with Gitzman and Rorschach Six when they are saying that the errors do not break the game and that it's such a good game that it outweights the few problems. It's not like our group will stop playing if they do not re-print the faulty cards, and I love the game so. In a podcast episode about this I'd probably say something similar to what you guys said (maybe not after this discussion though).

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@Heretek

Well put.  I guess i just roll with it because it is what i have come to expect from FFG, for better or worse (worse mostly). 

I certainly agree that the home printed 'high quality PDFs' dont cut it, how am i supposed to print a sexy glossy card? 

But in regards to having them send out reprints to paying customers, we have to think that one through for a min.  yea it may not cost much, but who will they send it to?  They would have to require people provide proof of purchase for all the products they have payed for.  Did you guys all keep those little chips that show you payed for it in the punch board with all your other tokens?  I know i sure didnt.  That is most likely what they would ask for a proof that you bought the product. 

They may end up satisfying a few folks, but the lion share of players will still be left in the dark and even more upset because they did actually pay for it but do not meet the criteria for getting the reprinted content because they didnt save that little chip.

Gitzman

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Gitzman said:

 

But in regards to having them send out reprints to paying customers, we have to think that one through for a min.  yea it may not cost much, but who will they send it to?  They would have to require people provide proof of purchase for all the products they have payed for.  Did you guys all keep those little chips that show you payed for it in the punch board with all your other tokens?  I know i sure didnt.  That is most likely what they would ask for a proof that you bought the product. 

They may end up satisfying a few folks, but the lion share of players will still be left in the dark and even more upset because they did actually pay for it but do not meet the criteria for getting the reprinted content because they didnt save that little chip.

 

 

As I've said before, release them together with a future expansion (like Omens of War), as they did with some Descent cards. If a group do not want to pick that expansion up I'd say that it's their problem, most groups (that I know of) buy all the products so by doing this they should be able to reach most of the customers without having to go through the motions with the "Proof of Purchase" (by the way, I have all my proofs gui%C3%B1o.gif).

While on the topic I must ask, are the cards from the core box corrected in the players vault?

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@Gitzman

 

Well  we all have the cards with errors so why do we need a proof of purchase? We could simply mail back the defective product as is pretty standard in just about every wholesale/retail industry I've every had to deal with... This is not a question of whether or not it's feasible but simply one of will on the part of FF.

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I can see three solutions here:

1) FFG includes the corrected cards in an upcoming supplement.

There is precedent for this in WFRP 3e as they did this with the Player's Vault.  Inside the PV, FFG included new versions of Double Strike, Rapid Fire and the Aqshy order card.

2) FFG sells a discounted "card pack" that contains all the corrected cards, as well as more basic action cards so it's useful for everybody.

There is also precedent for this, though not with the WFRP product line.  When FFG released the revised rulebook for Tannhauser, they discounted it to $9.95 (generally speaking, a 100+ page, full-color rulebook would cost more so I'm assuming they discounted it as a tip of the hat to their fans).

3) We can mail back any defective cards to FFG for new ones.

There is a 4th option, but that is doubtful to happen.  FFG could simply send out replacement cards to anyone who called in and asked for them.  I know, I know, what am I crazy?  Probably.  In my (insanity) defense, I find the measure of a company isn't whether they make mistakes, it's how they resolve a problem when mistakes are made.  Right now, I find their resolution... lacking.

Anyway, I'm starting to regret derailing this thread about the 4th episode of such an outstanding podcast.  On a more positive note, how about them careers?  Does anyone think we'll see careers beyond a 3rd rank?  If so, my big question is - how am I going to fit all that stuff on my character sheet?

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"Does anyone think we'll see careers beyond a 3rd rank?"

 

Eventually, but not till later in the year at the earliest since Omens of War and Black fire pass will almost certainly follow the formats of it's predecessors. I think once the last major supplement (the one with Slaanesh and Rogues) is released we should start to see more epic stuff, I hope anyway!

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Heretek said:

@Gitzman

 

Well  we all have the cards with errors so why do we need a proof of purchase? We could simply mail back the defective product as is pretty standard in just about every wholesale/retail industry I've every had to deal with... This is not a question of whether or not it's feasible but simply one of will on the part of FF.

Very good point handt thought of that lol =)

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I really like the way you present your arguments here Yipe, Heretek, and k9e7, and for the most part I fully agree with what you have stated.  However as "special guest" on RDP 4 I didn't feel it was my place to create a big uproar about the editing woes of FFG.  Gitzman also made a good point about how it doesn't break the game, most of the mistakes are just grammatical and the few rules mistakes on cards are simple fixes.  Other things like "Average (1d)" needing to be changed to "Average (2d)" are just little oversights that just have the wrong dice picture, however the Average nature of the task is still the same..... it still says average.

I happen to think that k7e9 is correct with his marketing assessment.  A company who wants to stay in good standing with its Fan/Customer base will always address the problems that are brought forward by the community.  They have been good with replacing things in other game lines, in fact my Core Set included a whole set of replacement dice because, as the included note stated, "The quality of dice was not up to FFG's standards".  So I think that there is hope that these cards will be replaced in an upcoming supplement.  They have replaced the misprinted Core Set cards in the Players Vault so it is not far fetched to assume that this problem will be addressed in due course.

 

@Gitzman

When you touched on Nurgle's Realm being a viable place to visit in the RPG I really wanted to say that there are not enough Purple Dice in the world to represent the challenges that would be faced in that twisted garden of decay.  :D

 

I hope that I didn't seem to much like an Uber fanboy because I am concerned about paying for quality and getting mistakes.  However as I stated in the PodCast its unfair to think that they can make a perfect product, no matter how much we desire one. 

Thanks for having me on guys, and thanks community for listening to the best RPG podcast on the web!

 

Lester Crow Out

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@Bones,

Any time any characters i've had who made it into the realm of chaos were instantly killed as their bodies and souls were torn apart and reassembled only to be torn apart again, and again, and again. 

BUT...

There was a book or a short story or something like that where a group of soldiers were venturing through the swamp approaching Nurgles fortress.  As they ventured closer and fought through the funk, they went more and more insaine.  I dont recall where i read it, possibly one of the source books or Liber Chaotica supplements.

So, can you go there, sure, will you die horribly within seconds, minutes or hours, most certainly.

Gitzman

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Gitzman said:

@Bones,

Any time any characters i've had who made it into the realm of chaos were instantly killed as their bodies and souls were torn apart and reassembled only to be torn apart again, and again, and again. 

BUT...

There was a book or a short story or something like that where a group of soldiers were venturing through the swamp approaching Nurgles fortress.  As they ventured closer and fought through the funk, they went more and more insaine.  I dont recall where i read it, possibly one of the source books or Liber Chaotica supplements.

So, can you go there, sure, will you die horribly within seconds, minutes or hours, most certainly.

Gitzman

Rotting Thumbs WAAAAY up on this one

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Well Gotrek & Felix went deep inside the Realms of Chaos and were no worse the wear : )) True they used a filtration device of Dwarf design and did not spend time on the ground but they spent quite a bit of time there and even found Karak-a-Doom or something or other, I forget now.

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@ Strolling Bones

"They have replaced the misprinted Core Set cards in the Players Vault"

 

Considering I own 2 copies of the core set and I'm not interested in making another $40 purchase of something I already own 2 sets of cards for, this solution does not meet my needs : ((

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Great Episode again guys. Are you going to GenCon? There would be a chance to interview the makers and directors of this product line and bring the arguments of the community direct to the people that matter. All that whining and crying in this forum and the other places on the web will change nothing. FFG listens only to numbers in sells and direct approaches. Anyone who cares should write directly to FFG and tell them their opinion.

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 hi there,

enjoying the podcast.

with regards to the quality control issue, for me personally i think the error rate is not that bad.

there are close to 800 standard cards so far, close to 500 mini cards and over 120 sheets

there are 5 hi rez replacement cards. out of 1400 or so. some of those 5 will never even be used by some game groups.

sure having a hi rez pdf of a card  isn't perfect, but for me the argument that the current error rate will result in significant abandonment  of the game by customers or potential customers is a touch hyperbolic.

the game is fun, the rules set innovative, the large majority of the product superb quality, is it really that onerous to have a half dozen hi rez card replacements? considering the original cards are not going to be used you can even glue the errata-ed pdf to the original card if you want a similar heft to your replacement.

i personally would rather see an error on a card than an error in a rulebook. the card can be swapped out with the hi rez pdf easily, not so with a series of errors in a rulebook.

getting back to the podcast, i would have no use in listening to the casters gripe and complain about products at length, that would have me tuning out quickly (as i do when i read a forum thread degenerate similarly). i think the way they handled the issue was perfect, they acknowledged that there were failures and that if you wanted to more detail then you could visit the forums, they also stated their opinions briefly.

later.

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