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So what will we be playing???

105 posts in this topic

ItsUncertainWho said:

I just didn't think trying to argue that a 8-12 year old boys wouldn't be able to handle a 22 pound, nearly 4 foot long boltgun designed for use with power armor, was worth mentioning.

Interestingly, boys of that age fall into the recruiting scheme of some Marine Chapters, and as the fluff has established, bolter drills are used in the recruitment process. Also, where exactly is it established that Marine boltguns are designed for use with power armour? As far as I'm aware, their Scouts wear carapace.

Also, I don't really think it is a good style to fall back to "8-12 year olds" when I am talking about experienced and fully trained power armoured Acolytes and Veteran Guardsman strong of body in comparison to unarmoured Marines.

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

Bolt guns are all heavy things that kind of weed out weaker users naturally.

Not in this RPG, apparently. Sadly this aspect of this weapon class is sorely missing entirely. Here, everyone can use "boltguns light" but no-one sans someone with the Marine title can use "proper bolters".

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

You said "all" or 100% of bolt rounds are identical.

No, I did not. Either you should read my posts more carefully, or I request that you do not try to twist my words into a different meaning. I said all bolt weapons worked by the same specifications. The "100% identical" comment was referring to the Angelus, which uses Astartes bolt rounds fired by a normal user.

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

As to the Astartes "title" being required, machine spirits are real and they know who is using them. The Angelus doesn't have an Astartes machine spirit.

Curious then that only Astartes weapons have this particular machine spirit and that any other Imperial organization seems unwilling to reproduce it even as they possess the capability to do so. Aside from that this aspect of the machine spirit is merely a fancy word for a built-in identification device which seems to interlink with the armour of the user. Not all Marine boltguns use it (or it can simply be turned on/off by someone who knows what to do), else Scouts would not be able to fire it. And we would not have the countless cases in the fluff where normal people get to use an Astartes gun either.

 

Golgenna Grenadier said:

Another alternative explanation is that Deathwatch represents an update/retcon in perceptions of the lethality of an Astartes bolter.

Yes, that's what I was thinking too. On the other hand it is just as possible that Deathwatch merely takes place on a completely different narrative scale. DW weapons in general are not more powerful because it fits better, they are more powerful because the enemies are tougher. And the enemies are tougher because DW player characters have a flat multiplier doubling their Toughness bonus. It all falls back to the Unnatural traits which keep unbalancing the entire system.

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

When we take into account that this is an officially sanctioned, ordered by GW, prop replica from the Ultramarines movie, built to their specs, and is a Bolt Pistol that is nearly 2 feet long....

You know,  a full boltgun (which fires the same ammunition) isn't really much longer. And I have already commented multiple times about Astartes weapons being larger due to their armoured casing (-> battlefield resilience) and the thing that they are simply designed for slightly larger people. The very fact that this larger gun still has the very same barrel size as its supposedly inferior cousins should tell you something, though. It doesn't really matter for the ammunition if you slab 5, 10 or 100 centimeters of additional steel around the body, does it?

Anyone able to fire a caliber 1.00 heavy bolter standing should easily be able to fire a lighter and smaller weapon of caliber 0.75 with a slower rate of fire, no? Common sense, really.

Sadly, common sense seems to get suspended for anything that has the mighty Astartes tag.

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 Could we kindly return to the topic and either debate about whether Chaos Space Marine boltguns are different from normal Heretic boltguns or, even better, what characters we may or may not be playing? I'm sure any interested parties can find the New Thread button and create one dealing exclusively with boltguns. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Lynata your quote doesn't support humans and Astartes using the same kinds of bolt guns.  It does suggest lots of bolt guns are hard for ordinary humans to use.  You're claim of "all the time in novels and comics" includes not a single supporting reference.

 

Also .357 and .38 are not the same thing despite being equally wide shells.

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Cifer said:

 Could we kindly return to the topic and either debate about whether Chaos Space Marine boltguns are different from normal Heretic boltguns or, even better, what characters we may or may not be playing? I'm sure any interested parties can find the New Thread button and create one dealing exclusively with boltguns. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Amen! While I agree with Lynata re:boltguns, there are already threads covering this very topic on both the Dark Heresy and Deathwatch forums- it doesn't belong in a thread about what types of characters will be available in Black Crusade...

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Cynical Cat said:

Also .357 and .38 are not the same thing despite being equally wide shells.
That's true, but look at DW and its depiction of Astartes bolt shells. How much shorter can it get? And it's not like "normal" boltguns are that much smaller.

As for supporting references in comics and novels ... off the top of my head, what about Eisenhorn's new bolt pistol he got from that Librarian? Or Inquisitor Grinn wielding a Black Templar's boltgun in Daemonifuge? And, to mention them once more because apparently they keep getting overlooked, the young unaugmented recruits firing Ultramarine boltguns to test their suitability for recruitment in the Codex?

There really is no logical explanation, it boils down to "because we said so". And I simply happen to dislike this change.

But as Cifer and Adeptus-B already pointed out, this argument does not really belong here - though I do feel that, given Black Crusade's scope of having Chaos Marines and "normal" people work side by side spreading heresy, it is a topic of some relevance, as this would have to be adressed if only for the sake of balancing. I suggest moving this particular debate about boltguns back to the Dark Heresy forum should there still be something to discuss - there already is a lenghty debate which got deadlocked due to all options for physical limitations being debunked and some kind of theorized in-universe law simply being the only possible explanation. I fear we have now arrived at that point here, too, anyways. In any case, apologies for slightly derailing the topic.

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 I'm fairly certain the "these bolters are different" debate can go back to the Deathwatch forums. I've said all I need to say over there, and house rule my bolters to be the same.

This thread should be about what kind of chaos cultists we can play. I really prefer the Dark Heresy level of game. I hope the rules provide a wide range of playable ranks.

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deinol said:

 I'm fairly certain the "these bolters are different" debate can go back to the Deathwatch forums. I've said all I need to say over there, and house rule my bolters to be the same.

This thread should be about what kind of chaos cultists we can play. I really prefer the Dark Heresy level of game. I hope the rules provide a wide range of playable ranks.

 I totally agree with you. I don`t have anything against DW and Rogue Trader. But not having an Chaos-sided RPG on the level of Dark Heresy would be a big waste. I could imagine so many nice hooks for cover-operations, infiltration and so on for a chaos-cell.

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in a vain effort to try and get this thread back on track and end this pointles debate over bolters which even for me as a weapons tech in the RAF find boring and pointless (and i love guns) i reckon we will ofc have the aforementiioned csm the heretek or dark mechanicum chr maybe some sort of dark soul/possesed chr a mutie and sorcerer maybe apostate cardianl style chr

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So drawing from other posts and sources:


Dark Mechanicus Tech Priest/Magos
Chaos Space Marine
Chaos Sorcerers
Dark Apostates/Clerics
Demon Possesed/Spawn
Warp Tainted/Spawn - Humans and Xenos
Warp Twisted Mutants
Champions of Chaos
Chaos Lords
Traitor Guard
Daemons
Cultists - Human & Xenos 

 

Some of these overlap or might be considered the same thing to some extent and others might be more of an advanced specialty package.

What else might we expect to see?

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Lynata said:

Sorry for derailing the thread, but this is one of my big criticisms towards a game which I otherwise love very much.

You should be sorry, especially because you've been proven wrong time and time again, but keep ignoring the evidence you're given. And you just won't. shut. up. either.

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Adeptus-B said:

To clairify- I'm wondering if Chaos Space Marines and "mere mortal" characters will start out at the same XP level, with the CSM's gear/enhancements taken into account. If so, what level would that be? I doubt you could go lower than 5000 XP, representing a fresh-from-Fabius Bile's-laboratory rookie CSM, as opposed to a veteran like the Deathwatch Space Marines...

 

This is a common misconception.

The Marines in Deathwatch, at char creation, are not a bunch of hoary old veterans, come to kick some Xenos ass after proving themselves over several decades of warfare. They're Marines who have 'IT', what 'IT' is varies from Marine to Marine and Chapter to Chapter, but a relatively fresh full Marine has just as much chance of becoming a member of Deathwatch as some ancient veteran does, if they can prove themselves worthy of the honour.

Of course a normal, fully fledged Space Marine, is still a veteran of quite a few years of combat (I'd say 20-30 years).

But to get back on topic, because of the above facts a Chaos Marines couldn't even start as low as 5,000 xp. So I'm thinking it'll have a split level game, with cultists and others who could eventually be 'ascended' to be the same level of power as Chaos Marines. The only other really viable option is to just have everyone start at Chaos Marine level, which wouldn't be bad either, but I wouldn't mind playing the canker at the heart of Imperial society, slowly eroding it as I worm my way through, and gain power in the service to the Ruinous Powers.

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Blood Pact said:

You should be sorry, especially because you've been proven wrong time and time again, but keep ignoring the evidence you're given. And you just won't. shut. up. either.

I have not been "proven wrong" a single time and you failed to show any kind of evidence or sources for these ridiculous claims at all. If you are honestly interested in continueing this discussion (which seems to be the case, as you "just won't shut up" as well), let's do so over at the DH forum or via private messaging, okay?

 

DarthKaleashth likes this

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No I think not.

You've displayed your ignorance of the subject matter at hand with statements like (paraphrasing) "if the Deathwatch is a normal Chapter that doesn't work for the Inquisition, why does it still have the =][= on its armour? Must be an oversight...", and many others.

And you've abjectly ignored it time and time again when people explain to you why and how you're wrong, including detailed explanations of how ballistics actually work.

While your responses amount to little more than stuff you make up or "nuh-uh, the Munitorium Manual says...". Considering there's a 7 page thread over in the DH forums (Dark Heresy vs. Deathwatch), there's ample enough evidence of this.

I'm done with you. You've proven you don't give one whit of respect to other posters (while the only person I've been disrespectful to is you), and that from this moment on you don't deserve a scrap of attention from me.

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There's also the possibility of deliberate propaganda in the writeup, just like the Uplifting one talks about how pathetic Genestealer claws are.  Makes people less afraid of Marine or Traitor boltguns. :P

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I'm terribly sorry to post again as I had hoped we could have made a stop here, but as I now feel insulted I have to respond to these accusations, lest someone might actually believe them.

Blood Pact said:

You've displayed your ignorance of the subject matter at hand with statements like (paraphrasing) "if the Deathwatch is a normal Chapter that doesn't work for the Inquisition, why does it still have the =][= on its armour? Must be an oversight...", and many others.

Wrong topic?

 

Blood Pact said:

And you've abjectly ignored it time and time again when people explain to you why and how you're wrong, including detailed explanations of how ballistics actually work.

I'm calling you out on this. Prove it or shut up.

The only one who is ignoring detailed explanations is you, as you have yet to respond to several of the points I made, including the notion that anyone capable of firing a heavy bolter standing should have zero issues firing a gun that:

  • is lighter in weight
  • is smaller in size
  • has a slower rate of fire
  • uses smaller ammunition

Simple physics. Inconvenient, huh?

Blood Pact said:

While your responses amount to little more than stuff you make up or "nuh-uh, the Munitorium Manual says...". Considering there's a 7 page thread over in the DH forums (Dark Heresy vs. Deathwatch), there's ample enough evidence of this.

You seem to have missed the fact that, in that particular thread, I have adressed and debunked every single theory that defends your precious Astartes bolter superiority with both several sources of all types (from codices, novels and comics up to, yes, the Munitorum Manual) and common sense. The one and only thing I was unable to address there, and I have already mentioned this, is this theorized law simply banning anyone from employing Astartes-grade ammunition even if they were otherwise perfectly capable to do so (and, in fact, are doing it, if we go by the tabletop rules).

 

Blood Pact said:

I'm done with you. You've proven you don't give one whit of respect to other posters (while the only person I've been disrespectful to is you), and that from this moment on you don't deserve a scrap of attention from me.

Then stop spouting lies. We've already cluttered this thread up way too much. But you just had to make one last stab at me, didn't you?

 

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Oh man I miss mods. this thread is about how black crusade will be like. not about personal discussions and bolters. btt please.

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Blood Pact said:

...But to get back on topic, because of the above facts a Chaos Marines couldn't even start as low as 5,000 xp. So I'm thinking it'll have a split level game, with cultists and others who could eventually be 'ascended' to be the same level of power as Chaos Marines. The only other really viable option is to just have everyone start at Chaos Marine level, which wouldn't be bad either, but I wouldn't mind playing the canker at the heart of Imperial society, slowly eroding it as I worm my way through, and gain power in the service to the Ruinous Powers.

I'm all for a 2-tiered game, with "mere mortal" cultists scaled to DH levels, and CSMs and others Chosen By The Gods scaled to Assention/DW level.

Hmm- is there any official background stating that mortals who please the Chaos Gods can be "morphed" into CSM-like characters? The closest thing I can find is in the Lost And The Damned Army List in Codex: Eye Of Terror, where the HQ choise Arch Heretic is described as "counts as Chaos Space Marine Lieutanant/ Sorcerer", but are described in the fluff as traitors and demagouges who have caught the eye of the Gods. Not exactly proof that mortals can be "re-made" into CSMs, but food for thought... And there is something like percedent, by way of the WH fantasy universe, where Chaos Warriors are supposed to have been normal fur-wearing barbarians who have been changed into hulking near-superhumans, whose armour is a gift from the Gods...

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I'm not sure, though I think Fabius Bile might have 'perfected' such a process, since the whims of the chaos gods and virtual immortality can't be the only thing keeping the Traitor Legions up to strength.

In any event, the manyfold blessings of the Runious Powers would certainly be able to elevate a mere mortal to the level where they could compete with a Chaos Marine, though I imagine the Marines will probably have a lot going for them, to keep them as the premier combatents of the game. But that hardly makes your other characters a weakling.

Consider the examples we're given of the Inquisition's Most Wanted, in the back of Disciples of the Dark Gods. As well as Pontius Glaw and Zygmunt Molotch, from Eisenhorn and Ravenor respectively. A mere mortal can go on to become a terrifyingly dangerous foe, which is what really interests me the most about the game (though I think Chaos Marines are cool too).

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Indeed. At least Lexicanum does talk of related experiments and the creation of superhumans rivaling the original Chaos Marines, so this would be a perfect angle for characters "ascending" to a semi-Marine status. Chaos Legions lack the ability to create new warriors the same way loyal Chapters do, so they would have to opt for other ways - be them processes such as the ones developed by Bile, or rituals employing the powers of the Chaos Gods they have sworn themselves to. Let us also keep in mind that, considering that this RPG has already changed/retconned several details for the setting, we may also see some entirely new fluff about this very problem in Black Crusade.

Pretty interesting article, by the way: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fabius_Bile

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In Storm of Iron a slave woman puts on a possesed suit of Chaos Marine armour and is transformed to kill her captor so it could happen.

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 The news post Shades of Grey definitely has gotten my hopes up for characters that are affiliated with Chaos for more reasons than "cause it's evil and pisses off my parents!"

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My first thought was similar to the newer Night Lords novels.... Chaos Space Marines, navigators, servants & tech-types, etc.  Now that I think of it, the Night Lords are perfect since they are not trues Slaves to Darkness more like the Lost and the Damned by their choices and actions as opposed to true cultists.

-Cynr

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arkenfels said:

Oh man I miss mods. this thread is about how black crusade will be like. not about personal discussions and bolters. btt please.

 

Thank you my good sir, cannot stress how much I agree with you.

Back on topic*: Space Skavens and Fell Squats, that's what we will be playing. We will be playing these because the Skavens want a new contract that gives them a role in both Warhammer franchises while the Squats consorted with the dark powers of Chaos to reverse the ignoble write-off their species got.  And the whole purpose of the game will be to invade Holy Terra and picket the hallowed ground outside of the revered Game Workshop offices to get them to meet these demands.  Your enemies include everything from loyalist forces who resist you because you're a Chaos-worshipping xeno to zealous fanboys who resist you because you're "not canon."  Let none of them stand in the way of your Chaos-given birthright, fight them with Chainblade Battleaxes, protect yourself with the finest in Warlock Engineering, and bring the survivors of your wraith to their knees with Slaanesh's electric guitar and the power of soul-crushing heavy metal....

Back on topic for reals: Most likely we will be playing an assortment that has more in common with Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader then Deathwatch.  Deathwatch, despite arguments to the contrary, is a combat-heavy hack'n'slash game.  All information so far suggests that Black Crusade will have a very Machavellian feel to it despite the apparent presence of a CSM career.  Thus it's not likely we'll be getting fallen Tech-Marines or the like as those guys aren't really all that appropriate for a game that can just as easily be about complex and elaborate schemes as it can be about simplier campaigns where the only decision players have to make is what of melee weapon do they want to use.

* In case it wasn't obvious, that second paragraph was meant to be sarcastic.  Though I would be beside myself with glee if the equipment section includes some Noise Marine wargear.

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