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Paul Grogan

New list of unanswered questions

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Notes on the questions list:

I didn't ask the quick shot and Lt's/avatars question because I think the fine minds here at the forums have basically answered it.

@Antistone:

  • I found the answer to your treachery question, but it's such a small note in the paragraph that I included it in the answer list.
  • The large monster clarification you were asking for under the JitD section was redundant given the large monster movement clarification and I didn't really understand what the problem was on the referenced pages, so I didn't add it to the list.
  • Tomb of Ice A5: The Swallow vs Defense Abilities question was already loaded enough without adding a non-existent but theoretically possible corner case.
  • Tomb of Ice A6: I realized that the question is in two parts: can heroes declare actions (regardless of if they can benefit from them) and can they then Attack and order with a Ready action. I rewrote the question to reflect this.
  • Journeys A14: It's in the GLoAQ.
  • WoD A8: I don't believe it's necessary to ask if both spaces of the pit have to be touching the door, since that's essentially what "front" demands.
  • Some of your feat card questions are answered on the card itself.
  • ToI A13: The second part makes no sense, so I removed it.


  EDIT:
Figured I should double up on this announcement: Anyone who wants to review/copy-edit/point out flaws with the list is totally welcome to do so.  You don't even have to tackle the whole list: anything that you notice is fine.  Please quote rules, though: I already have enough trouble looking these questions up the first time without having to look them all up again, so I appreciate page numbers.

Also, for answers found in the FAQ, just the section is enough, because the page numbers are subject to change and I don't wanna go back and edit this monster for page numbers every time there's an update, so I don't post them.

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Thundercles said:

I found the answer to your treachery question, but it's such a small note in the paragraph that I included it in the answer list.

Good find, but it doesn't actually answer the question.  The rules say that heroes should do the "A" steps while the overlord does the "B" steps, but doesn't specify their timing relative to each other; there's nothing that prevents the heroes from being on step 6A while the overlord is on 1B or vice versa.  And they can't have ever been intended to proceed in lockstep, because there aren't an equal number of substeps for each side in the original rules.

Thundercles said:

The large monster clarification you were asking for under the JitD section was redundant given the large monster movement clarification and I didn't really understand what the problem was on the referenced pages, so I didn't add it to the list.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here; the questions are very different.

The issue with the non-square movement in the JitD section is that, taking the text exactly as written, hellhounds can move forward/backward, diagonally, and rotate, but can't move sideways; however, dragons can move sideways and diagonally, but cannot move forward/backward or rotate.  In addition to the fact that this is stupid, the diagram a couple pages later shows a dragon rotating.

My guess is that the rules are correct for the hellhound, and the dragon is supposed to move in an analogous fashion, and the person writing didn't even think about dragons while he was writing it.  And I think most people play that way.  But it has never been confirmed, and it's definitely not RAW.  We've also had at least one long thread debating it on this forum while I've been here.

The issue of when large monsters (square or not) are affected by terrain is completely separate.

Thundercles said:

Tomb of Ice A5: The Swallow vs Defense Abilities question was already loaded enough without adding a non-existent but theoretically possible corner case.

Swallow vs. Defense abilities was A2, and both A2 and A5 appear to have made it into your list unmodified, so I don't know what this is supposed to apply to.

Thundercles said:

Journeys A14: It's in the GLoAQ.

Ah.  My search didn't find it because they refer to it as "Rapid Shot" instead of the name printed on the card ("Rapid Fire").

Thundercles said:

WoD A8: I don't believe it's necessary to ask if both spaces of the pit have to be touching the door, since that's essentially what "front" demands.

I wasn't asking that.  I was asking what happens if there are more than two spaces touching the door (i.e. do you choose which ones to put the pit in?  does the pit fill all adjacent spaces on that side of the door?  does it have to be the two that are orthogonally touching the door, rather than diagonally touching it?)

Thundercles said:

Some of your feat card questions are answered on the card itself.

Blocked:  "The monster's attack against you becomes a miss."  Is "against you" just clarifying which attack becomes a miss, or is it supposed to mean that the miss result only affects you?  We could argue grammar, but you know as well as I do that what FFG intended (or would answer) will have nothing to do with that.  "Evade" just says the monster's attack becomes a miss, but since the feats are so similar, it deserves a mention if we ask about Blocked.

Flaming Fury:  This card makes up terminology that isn't used elsewhere (an attack "on" a target?  WTH?) and I would be shocked if the person writing it even considered area attacks.

I'm not going to get up in arms if you really don't want to ask about them, but I've seen multiple people ask about these feats, the wording on the cards is obviously sloppy, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised no matter which way FFG rules them.

Thundercles said:

ToI A13: The second part makes no sense, so I removed it.

You mean A12, I think (the Beastman Fetish).  How does it not make sense?  If you can't reroll a die that a different player rolled, then whether you can reroll the Undying die of a monster you kill on your turn depends on whether the roll is made by the owner of the monster or the player making the attack, and the rules don't specify who rolls it.  In fact, that is probably the most important part of that question, and it has been asked on this forum before.

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I would suggest to include the answer for the Crystal of Tival and the other two healing items from the GLoAQ and simply ask to include them in the FAQ, rather than asking the question as a new one.

I would love to get some Tahlia clarifications:

a) Is she allowed to drink a potion both during her turn and during her interrrupt movement?

b) Is she allowed to use a glyph both during her turn and during her interrrupt movement?

c) Is another hero with Guard allowed to interrupt Tahlia´s interrupt movement (e.g. possibly using a more favorable attack position for Spiritwalker)?

d) RtL encounter location that limits max. movement per turn/round to the hero´s speed (was it called Frozen or Snowy Paths?): Is Tahlia allowed to move her speed both during her turn and during her interrupt movement?

e) RtL Level Down the Drain: What happens if Tahlia ends her interrupt movement in the water?

f) If Tahlia opens a chest during her interrupt movement and the OL plays a trap card Mimic on that chest , is Tahlia´s interrupt action interrupted by the Mimic´s activation?

g) If a Guarding Tahlia is the last hero in a RtL dungeon level sitting next to the portal piece, can she interrupt the OL even before he has the chance to collect threat and draw cards for his turn, which would then be lost because the level ends as soon as Tahlia steps onto the portal?

h) Is a Guarding Avatar allowed to interrupt Tahlia´s interrupt movement?

If we are talking about a new FAQ:

1. Will all the GLoAQ answers be included? We should ask for that.

2. The clarification regarding the change for Soulbiter from Melee to Ranged in JiTD Quest 7 after breaking the first seal needs to be included.

3. KW´s rule extension for RtL which allows the OL to buy one final upgrade prior to the Final Battle needs to be included.

 

 

Edit: Almost forgot: Big thanks to Thundercles for his work and patience!
 

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Antistone said:

Thundercles said:

 

I found the answer to your treachery question, but it's such a small note in the paragraph that I included it in the answer list.

 

 

Good find, but it doesn't actually answer the question.  The rules say that heroes should do the "A" steps while the overlord does the "B" steps, but doesn't specify their timing relative to each other; there's nothing that prevents the heroes from being on step 6A while the overlord is on 1B or vice versa.  And they can't have ever been intended to proceed in lockstep, because there aren't an equal number of substeps for each side in the original rules.

That may be true, but the heroes explicitly can't take 6A until the overlord finishes 5B.  That doesn't matter for this question: I'll ask if the steps are meant to be taken together.

Antistone said:

Thundercles said:

 

The large monster clarification you were asking for under the JitD section was redundant given the large monster movement clarification and I didn't really understand what the problem was on the referenced pages, so I didn't add it to the list.

 

 

There seems to be a misunderstanding here; the questions are very different.

The issue with the non-square movement in the JitD section is that, taking the text exactly as written, hellhounds can move forward/backward, diagonally, and rotate, but can't move sideways; however, dragons can move sideways and diagonally, but cannot move forward/backward or rotate.  In addition to the fact that this is stupid, the diagram a couple pages later shows a dragon rotating.

My guess is that the rules are correct for the hellhound, and the dragon is supposed to move in an analogous fashion, and the person writing didn't even think about dragons while he was writing it.  And I think most people play that way.  But it has never been confirmed, and it's definitely not RAW.  We've also had at least one long thread debating it on this forum while I've been here.

The issue of when large monsters (square or not) are affected by terrain is completely separate.

Oh, you're talking about how the dragon has two directions along which it can be said to have "halves".  Now I get it.  I don't understand why you think that three squares can't be divided "in half" or be considered in the terms of "two halves," but I'm guessing it's because we're talking about the rules as being explicit and well-defined instead of their current quotidian-language state.  Anyway, that's a good thing to have clarified, because what they really mean is that 2- and 6-square creatures lead with their shortest sides.

Antistone said:

Thundercles said:

 

Tomb of Ice A5: The Swallow vs Defense Abilities question was already loaded enough without adding a non-existent but theoretically possible corner case.

 

 

Swallow vs. Defense abilities was A2, and both A2 and A5 appear to have made it into your list unmodified, so I don't know what this is supposed to apply to.

I'm talking about the supplemental note for A2 about Fear and Swallow.  Since no creature has both at the same time, I left the note out.

Antistone said:

Thundercles said:

 

WoD A8: I don't believe it's necessary to ask if both spaces of the pit have to be touching the door, since that's essentially what "front" demands.

 

 

I wasn't asking that.  I was asking what happens if there are more than two spaces touching the door (i.e. do you choose which ones to put the pit in?  does the pit fill all adjacent spaces on that side of the door?  does it have to be the two that are orthogonally touching the door, rather than diagonally touching it?)

Right, orthogonal or diagonal.  Good question.

Antistone said:

Thundercles said:

 

Some of your feat card questions are answered on the card itself.

 

 

Blocked:  "The monster's attack against you becomes a miss."  Is "against you" just clarifying which attack becomes a miss, or is it supposed to mean that the miss result only affects you?  We could argue grammar, but you know as well as I do that what FFG intended (or would answer) will have nothing to do with that.  "Evade" just says the monster's attack becomes a miss, but since the feats are so similar, it deserves a mention if we ask about Blocked.

Flaming Fury:  This card makes up terminology that isn't used elsewhere (an attack "on" a target?  WTH?) and I would be shocked if the person writing it even considered area attacks.

I'm not going to get up in arms if you really don't want to ask about them, but I've seen multiple people ask about these feats, the wording on the cards is obviously sloppy, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised no matter which way FFG rules them.

Blocked, yes, that could go either way and is poor language.  Flaming Fury, I could see the references to a single monster being the important ones; both of those cards are ambiguous enough to ask for clarification.  Evade is pretty clear as written.

Antistone said:

Thundercles said:

 

ToI A13: The second part makes no sense, so I removed it.

 

 

You mean A12, I think (the Beastman Fetish).  How does it not make sense?  If you can't reroll a die that a different player rolled, then whether you can reroll the Undying die of a monster you kill on your turn depends on whether the roll is made by the owner of the monster or the player making the attack, and the rules don't specify who rolls it.  In fact, that is probably the most important part of that question, and it has been asked on this forum before.

Yes, A12. Hmm, so who rolls the undying roll is pretty much a separate question...I mean the description implies the POV of the OL, but it's not clear.  I think I'll add that as a separate issue.

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Parathion said:

I would suggest to include the answer for the Crystal of Tival and the other two healing items from the GLoAQ and simply ask to include them in the FAQ, rather than asking the question as a new one.

I would love to get some Tahlia clarifications:

a) Is she allowed to drink a potion both during her turn and during her interrrupt movement?

b) Is she allowed to use a glyph both during her turn and during her interrrupt movement?

c) Is another hero with Guard allowed to interrupt Tahlia´s interrupt movement (e.g. possibly using a more favorable attack position for Spiritwalker)?

d) RtL encounter location that limits max. movement per turn/round to the hero´s speed (was it called Frozen or Snowy Paths?): Is Tahlia allowed to move her speed both during her turn and during her interrupt movement?

e) RtL Level Down the Drain: What happens if Tahlia ends her interrupt movement in the water?

f) If Tahlia opens a chest during her interrupt movement and the OL plays a trap card Mimic on that chest , is Tahlia´s interrupt action interrupted by the Mimic´s activation?

g) If a Guarding Tahlia is the last hero in a RtL dungeon level sitting next to the portal piece, can she interrupt the OL even before he has the chance to collect threat and draw cards for his turn, which would then be lost because the level ends as soon as Tahlia steps onto the portal?

h) Is a Guarding Avatar allowed to interrupt Tahlia´s interrupt movement?

If we are talking about a new FAQ:

1. Will all the GLoAQ answers be included? We should ask for that.

2. The clarification regarding the change for Soulbiter from Melee to Ranged in JiTD Quest 7 after breaking the first seal needs to be included.

3. KW´s rule extension for RtL which allows the OL to buy one final upgrade prior to the Final Battle needs to be included.

 

 

Edit: Almost forgot: Big thanks to Thundercles for his work and patience!
 

Crystal of Tyval thing is a good idea.  Then the ruling won't change.

a) This is two questions: can she perform movement actions with her guard movement, and, if so, can she drink a potion during the OL's turn if she drank one during her turn.
b) Same as a) only the second question is if she can use glyphs during the OL turn after using one on her turn.  BTW: feat rules imply that the hero turns and ol turn are separate "turns" and thus things that can be used once "per turn" (excluding exhausted cards) can be used on the hero's turn and then again during the OL's turn.
c) That's a good question.
d) need the text of the card to post the question.
e) I think that card is explicit on what happens when a hero enters the water for whatever reason.
f) similar to a) and b), but if the situation is even possible, the answer is yes, she is interrupted as per the RAW.
g) this is the question series: "Can guard interrupts be taken before the OL draws cards/collects threat?  Before the playing of Spawn/Event/Power cards? Before the first activation of the first monster?"  There's a better way to ask this, but yeah, we're looking for the specific timing of Guard.
h) I would lean no: you can't discard guard tokens on your own turn.  However, the rules were only defined for heroes, not avatars.  One would imagine the situation would reverse, but the rules do not explicitly explain what happens.

1-3 will be added to the FAQ Clarifications section

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"0)" Please include the other two healing items mentioned in the GLoAQ explicitly in the question, so nobody has to ask about them later.

a) Tahlia is allowed to perform movement actions in her interrupt, that was clarified by KW - it´s in the GLoAQ thread (and thus hopefully to be included as well).

b) The question is whether the Feat card rules can be applied here as well - it would make her ridiculously strong.

d) "Snowy Woods" - No figure may move more spaces than its speed during its turn. How far can Tahlia move in the interrupt, depending on or independent from her movement in her actual turn?

e) Down the Drain says: "Entering a water space immediately ends a hero´s turn." How is Tahlia´s interrupt movement handled here?

 

Another set of RtL questions:

The Rumor reward "Prince of Thieves" grants a 20% discount to "Market items".

a) Does this affect shop items as well (creates trouble with the 25er coins for cheap items, rounding needed)? 

b) Does this affect Party upgrades (with a potentially huge saving on e.g. Kerak´s map)?

c) How does it interact with the Orc market (Prince´s discount first, then off another 50)?

d) If sell values are affected by the Orc market, is there any interaction with said Rumor reward?

 

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Hm, didn't notice that Thundercles replied because the thread didn't get flagged as unread and Parathion was still listed as the most recent poster...

Thundercles said:

 

Oh, you're talking about how the dragon has two directions along which it can be said to have "halves".  Now I get it.  I don't understand why you think that three squares can't be divided "in half" or be considered in the terms of "two halves," but I'm guessing it's because we're talking about the rules as being explicit and well-defined instead of their current quotidian-language state.  Anyway, that's a good thing to have clarified, because what they really mean is that 2- and 6-square creatures lead with their shortest sides.

 

 

Dividing squares in half doesn't seem to help; the first half is moved into "a non-diagonally adjacent space," and the other half is moved "into the space(s) that the first half just vacated."  Ignoring the singular/plural issue in the first part and the fact that adjacency isn't even defined for partial squares (or groups of squares, for that matter), AFAICT neither half actually fits into the space where you are instructed to move it if a dragon tries to use this rule to move in any way other than "sideways" (in the direction of its shorter axis).  Taking one-and-a-half squares and translating it sideways (for a "rotation" move) doesn't seem like it would produce happy results in any instance, anyway.

Your best bet is probably to take an L-shaped "half" of the dragon, rather than dividing it along a straight line at all, and that still requires a fairly liberal interpretation of the text.  And if it doesn't need to be divided along a straight line, that certainly warrants an example division to show what was intended.  I don't even want to think about what would happen if you tried even more creative ways of splitting the dragon in "half".

Regardless, even if you can fudge it so that it sort of works, it still definitely allows the dragon to move "sideways" when the hellhound cannot, which is probably an error, and the entire passage is unnecessarily vague, complicated and confusing.  IMO, it thoroughly deserves to be thrown out in entirety and rewritten from scratch, but I would accept any answer that actually makes me confident about how it's supposed to work.

Thundercles said:

 

I'm talking about the supplemental note for A2 about Fear and Swallow.  Since no creature has both at the same time, I left the note out.

 

 

So you left in the parts asking about 2 ability combinations that are currently impossible (question still mentions Fear and Ironskin), you just left out the part warning that one of those theoretical combinations is a trap?  Um, OK...

 

Based on this thread, it looks like you could add additional JitD questions:

A15.  If a hero with Divine Retribution is killed by a Knockback attack, does Divine Retribution take effect before or after the figure is moved by Knockback?

A16.  If a figure is moved onto damaging terrain via Knockback, are the terrain and the attack treated as a single source of damage or as two sources?  (e.g. can Corbin apply his damage reduction to each separately, or only once to the combination?  If the hero suffers 1 wound from the attack and 1 wound from the terrain, can the Skull Shield be used to cancel both, or only one?)

I'm pretty sure in A16 they'll be treated as multiple damage sources, but Turric4n asked the question, and considering that issue might possible affect FFG's answer to A15.

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JitD Question #4 (jumping vs. grapple) has a punctuation error where a double-hyphen I used to approximate an em dash was removed by our esteemed forum software.  You can use a semicolon, edit in a dash (the forum removes them when you create a post but not when you edit a post, for whatever reason), or reword as you see fit.

RtL Question #8 (tracing LoS in/out of spaces that block it):  Why is this listed under RtL?  I believe you said your policy was to list questions under the first set to which they apply, and people playing extended campaigns are a lot more likely to look at the JitD questions than vice versa.

ToI Question #3 (stealth die when attack targets change):  Your rewrite of this question seems like it will probably not elicit an answer that helps us with Tetherys' ability.

ToI Question #6 (OL/feat card timing):  Should probably renumber this so it's not in the middle of a big set of questions that are all about Swallow.

FAQ Question #1 (Sorcery vs. Ironskin):  My question was actually whether the errata was just flat-out wrong and the immunity to damage from Sorcery shouldn't extend to other figures, because it's quite bizarre that it does, and I don't believe anyone in that giant debate thread was arguing for that position.  But I would understand if you don't want to ask a question that's already received a clear answer, even if that answer is crazy.

FAQ Question #2, part c ("front half"):  Still includes a reference to "JitD A6", which should be updated or removed (the question referenced was the one about how non-square figures actually move, which you took out but have agreed to put back in).  Also, there's an extraneous comma near the beginning (probably my fault).

Clarification #4 (discarding potions):  Asking whether a potion is "discarded" is less than ideal, since there are no rules that specify what happens to a discarded potion token (i.e. whether it returns to the shop or gets removed from the game), which was the part of the question that I have actually seen seriously asked.  Also, why the special case for invisibility potions, but not power or invulnerability?

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Antistone said:

 

A16.  If a figure is moved onto damaging terrain via Knockback, are the terrain and the attack treated as a single source of damage or as two sources?  (e.g. can Corbin apply his damage reduction to each separately, or only once to the combination?  If the hero suffers 1 wound from the attack and 1 wound from the terrain, can the Skull Shield be used to cancel both, or only one?)

I'm pretty sure in A16 they'll be treated as multiple damage sources, but Turric4n asked the question, and considering that issue might possible affect FFG's answer to A15.

 

 

This question should be extended generally towards the interaction of multiple damage sources and Corbin´s ability (e.g. a Leech attack that causes extra wounds, multiple Burn or Bleed tokens, combined Burn and Bleed tokens, etc.).

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Parathion said:

This question should be extended generally towards the interaction of multiple damage sources and Corbin´s ability (e.g. a Leech attack that causes extra wounds, multiple Burn or Bleed tokens, combined Burn and Bleed tokens, etc.).

Good thought, though it might be better to list those as separate questions, because I'm having trouble coming up with a wording general enough to cover Burn, Leech, and Knockback all at once.

- When the Leech ability causes a hero to suffer additional wounds (due to being out of fatigue), is this considered the same source as the attack or a different source (for purposes of Corbin, Skull Shield, etc.)?

-  If a hero has multiple damage-causing effect tokens (such as Burn or Bleed), is the damage considered to be one source or multiple (for purposes of Corbin, Skull Shield, etc.)?  For example, if a hero takes damage from 3 burn tokens and 2 bleed tokens, is that one source, two sources (grouping like tokens), or five?

- If a hero enters a space that is adjacent to multiple enemy figures that each possess the Aura ability, is the damage considered to come from one source or multiple (for purposes of Corbin, Skull Shield, etc.)?  What if the space also contains damaging terrain, such as lava?

 

Any other examples?

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 Extension to JitD 9: Do the effects of Aura, Spiritwalker, Command, Kirga, Divine Retribution, Word of Vaal, Flute of Repose, Spirit Spear, Star of Kellos, extend through closed doors or closed rune doors (for which the heros may or may not have a key)  (with both door types of course leading to already revealed areas)?

New question: Do lingering effect tokens like Web, Daze, Stun and the like, which are dealt to an activated monster via a Guard attack immediately take effect or only after the affected monster had a chance to get rid of it at the start of its next activation?

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The second question is a definite yes, as long as you follow the standard timing rules. For instance, someone webbed can no longer spend movement opints, because that's what Web does. If this wasn't true, then the Spider Queen's anti-Battle upgrade wouldn't work. However, someone hit by a burn token with a guard order would not take damage until the start of their next turn, as that's when burn triggers.

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James McMurray said:

The second question is a definite yes, as long as you follow the standard timing rules. For instance, someone webbed can no longer spend movement opints, because that's what Web does. If this wasn't true, then the Spider Queen's anti-Battle upgrade wouldn't work. However, someone hit by a burn token with a guard order would not take damage until the start of their next turn, as that's when burn triggers.

So by "a definite yes" you actually mean "yes to some, no to others, but you should be able to figure it out from the rules?"

Going strictly by RAW, I believe Daze would take effect immediately ("Each time a figure attacks when it has one or more daze tokens on it..." WoD p.5), but Web would not ("If any web tokens remain on the figure after rolling, the figure cannot spend any movement points that turn," JitD p. 16) and Stun would not (it takes effect when allocating resources for your activation).  I suspect FFG would uphold the RAW for Daze and Stun, as that's simplest; however, I think that having Web not affect you if it wasn't there at the start of your turn (and continuing to effect you even if it's removed mid-turn) is stupid and probably not intentional, so I ruled it differently in the Enduring Evil FAQ and I suspect FFG will also go against RAW if we can elicit a response.  (I don't know what "the Spider Queen's anti-Battle upgrade" does, so that's not factored into my estimate.)

I think it's a good question, Parathion.

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Thanks for elaborating on that, Antistone.

Stun could be even more complicated, e.g. a master monster with speed 4 has moved two spaces when receiving a Stun. If it takes effect immediately, which of its half-actions is cancelled? Is it allowed to move two more spaces, if the attack half-action is chosen to be cancelled? Is it allowed to attack if the OL chooses the move half.action to be cancelled? Is the OL even allowed to choose the move half-action to be cancelled? Effectively, the Guard Stun token would have an extended effect, since it then would take away more half-actions than a normally placed Stun token would, presuming it would be removed at the start of the monster´s next activation as usual.

As for Daze, it may take effect immediately without creating major problems, but then the Guard Daze would be stronger than the normal Daze as well - the active monster didn´t have a chance to get rid of it as every other affected figure would have (the same is valid for Web).

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Parathion said:

Stun could be even more complicated, e.g. a master monster with speed 4 has moved two spaces when receiving a Stun. If it takes effect immediately, which of its half-actions is cancelled? Is it allowed to move two more spaces, if the attack half-action is chosen to be cancelled? Is it allowed to attack if the OL chooses the move half.action to be cancelled? Is the OL even allowed to choose the move half-action to be cancelled? Effectively, the Guard Stun token would have an extended effect, since it then would take away more half-actions than a normally placed Stun token would, presuming it would be removed at the start of the monster´s next activation as usual.

This is almost exactly the situation that came up in our session last night.  The hero player had a Guard order placed on his character and when I moved my Manitcore to the last square of it's movement (which brought it into line of sight for the character with Guard), he used his interrupt attack and hit the Manticore with Stun.  So these are the options:

1) The Manitcore can still attack.  In this case, the Stun token should be removed at the start of the Manticore's next activation.

2) The Manticore cannot attack.  In this case, one of two scenarios could make sense:

A) The Stun token is not placed on the Manticore since the monster was prevented from performing an action (the purpose of Stun)

B) The Stun token is placed on the Manticore and is removed as the start of the Manticore's next activation.

In our case, the hero player boosted to roll dice to kill it instead, but had he not, I would have been torn between option 1 and option 2A.

 

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ckissee said:

Parathion said:

 

Stun could be even more complicated, e.g. a master monster with speed 4 has moved two spaces when receiving a Stun. If it takes effect immediately, which of its half-actions is cancelled? Is it allowed to move two more spaces, if the attack half-action is chosen to be cancelled? Is it allowed to attack if the OL chooses the move half.action to be cancelled? Is the OL even allowed to choose the move half-action to be cancelled? Effectively, the Guard Stun token would have an extended effect, since it then would take away more half-actions than a normally placed Stun token would, presuming it would be removed at the start of the monster´s next activation as usual.

 

This is almost exactly the situation that came up in our session last night.  The hero player had a Guard order placed on his character and when I moved my Manitcore to the last square of it's movement (which brought it into line of sight for the character with Guard), he used his interrupt attack and hit the Manticore with Stun.  So these are the options:

1) The Manitcore can still attack.  In this case, the Stun token should be removed at the start of the Manticore's next activation.

2) The Manticore cannot attack.  In this case, one of two scenarios could make sense:

A) The Stun token is not placed on the Manticore since the monster was prevented from performing an action (the purpose of Stun)

B) The Stun token is placed on the Manticore and is removed as the start of the Manticore's next activation.

In our case, the hero player boosted to roll dice to kill it instead, but had he not, I would have been torn between option 1 and option 2A.

 

 

Stun is pretty simple, just read the description.
DJitD pg15
On that figure’s next turn (or the next time the overlord activates the figure, in the case of monsters), the stun token is discarded. If the figure was a monster, its action immediately ends - it can do nothing else unti the overlord's next turn. (Masters are treated differently elsewhere)

Stun simply has no immediate effect if acquired mid-action. It explicitly only takes effect on the creatures next turn after acquisition. A stun token does not mean anything to a figure, it is the removal of a token at the start of the turn that activates a stun effect.

This is different from Web, for example
DJitD pg16
If any web tokens remain on the figure after rolling, the figure cannot spend any movement points that turn.

It is having a web token remaining on you (after rolling) that causes the web effect (and a Daze token on you that causes the Daze effect - regardless of rolls), hence the thought that a web token acquired mid-turn might take immediate effect. OTOH it does say 'after rolling' which could technically mean that web cannot take effect until after it has had an opportunity to be rolled off. IMO however, this is over-thinking the rules. It does not fit with the way the rest of the rules are written to have to 'remember' whether a token is new or old, current, expired or yet to take effect. It also fits with the casual (and imprecise) language used throughout the rules for this to simply be a badly worded passage that can be taken to mean something entirely unintended.

1) above is correct.

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Antistone said:

(I don't know what "the Spider Queen's anti-Battle upgrade" does, so that's not factored into my estimate.)

The upgrade (I forget it's name) gives anyone who battles in her final dungeon level a web token. They do not get to roll for it that turn. While its technically possible that they designed it with "web tokens don't matter until you've rolled for them" in mind, but I highly doubt it since it would mean the ability doesn't stop the hero from getting to where they can attack the spider queen twice. And since she can't move from her spot, it basically does nothing as they'll be within battle range of her from then on out.

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That sounds fairly pointless regardless, if it only matters for the first round of combat and you can still Ready (Attack+Guard) without triggering it.  Stops use of Unmovable and Knight on your first turn, but that's weirdly specific and indirect.

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The point is not how useful or useless the upgrade is (it's actually very useful given the spider's lair and special rules). The point is that the upgrade becomes 100% meaningless using the "web has to be rolled for before it matters" interpretation.

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I would like to keep the question on the list nonetheless. The Web rules are written unclear enough to justify a clarification (Edit: I just noticed a related entry in Thundercles´ list under RtL balance issues, regarding the level "Stuck in the middle").

Furthermore, it´s curious that Web and Daze take effect immediately without a chance to shake them off, while other effects like Stun and Burn have to wait until the next activation and have the chance to be completely useless.

New question:

Steelhorn´s ability: Is he allowed to use it after moving orthogonal / diagonal / along an uninterrupted line of sight?

Which reminds me of the questions regarding Grazius in one of the RtL levels (Nr. 18, "The Garden of Grazius"):

a) Is Grazius allowed to throw the stones orthogonal / diagonal / along an uninterrupted line of sight?

b) Can he pick up a rubble token from a certain adjacent space and use a different of his adjacent (or even one of his occupied) spaces as a starting point for his throwing attack?

(Have to check the level card, since there are no actual rubble tokens on the map)

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Parathion said:

I would like to keep the question on the list nonetheless. The Web rules are written unclear enough to justify a clarification (Edit: I just noticed a related entry in Thundercles´ list under RtL balance issues, regarding the level "Stuck in the middle").

Furthermore, it´s curious that Web and Daze take effect immediately without a chance to shake them off, while other effects like Stun and Burn have to wait until the next activation and have the chance to be completely useless.

Oh I completely agree, web needs clarification because the apparent RAW doesn't make sense and goes completely against the grain of the rules in requiring a (mental note) memory status for a token.
But I can't figure out why people mess themselves up with stun and daze which are clear and explicit.

 

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Another new question (these buggers are actually old but more and more of them show up in my memory):

The Power Card "Hordes of Things" says to place two monsters adjacent to existing ones.
a) If there are no existing ones in the new area, is the power completely useless or is the OL allowed to place the Hordes anywhere he likes? 
b) Is it allowed to place one Horde monster adjacent to an existing one, and the second Horde monster adjacent to the first one (and not adjacent to an existing one)?

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I think the Hordes question is a little silly.   If there are no monsters in a start area, which is usually pretty small in most basic vanilla descent maps, then it should not matter because the Overlord should not have it in play.   Keep in mind that the card was printed before rules for Road to Legend were made.

It only matters in the advanced campaign where there are some levels that have no starting monsters.  In my opinion, The heroes catch a lucky break for once.  And leave it at that. 

Also, the one RtL dungeon you refer to, The Garden of Grazius.  There are rubble markers that start on the map.

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Silly or not - the first part of the question is still important for RtL, especially for Rumors / Legendaries / Keeps (I had exactly that situation in a Rumor level). The second part is important for any Descent flavor.

Regarding the Grazius map: I was referring to the German version of the questbook, which is available online. There are definitely no rubble tokens on that. So I have to check the English questbook as well, maybe another misprint in the German version.

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If you're going to dissect Hordes of the Things, you might also consider asking whether the new monsters are required to be placed in the newly revealed area, or only adjacent to a monster in that area.  In some cases (e.g. area 4 in JitD quest 3, "Problems of Life and Death"), there is a monster right in front of the door when an area is revealed, and as written, the monsters from Hordes of the Things could "overflow" the new area, so to speak.

That's not necessarily a problem, either mechanically or thematically"they rushed out as soon as the door opened!"but it's nice to have a clear ruling one way or the other to point to when you discover that, for some reason, it makes a big tactical difference in the particular game you're playing.

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