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ak-73

Dark Heresy vs. Deathwatch

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Lynata said:

As for Strength I'd have to read up what SB actually does aside from melee damage bonus before I'd cast my judgement there. It may well be possible that Unnatural Strength actually works fine - Unnatural Toughness, however, confers too much of an Invulnerability bonus. One that is not backed up by the fluff and one which trivializes many potentially fun encounters. Surely you have to agree that a Marine's naked body should not rival his own power armour in terms of protection?

Actually YES, the SM naked body HAS to rival his armor in terms of protection, because that is also the case with normal Imperial Guard grunts. Why should SMs be any different?

If you change this you might as well also change the whole way TB works, or only allow TB to apply to damage reduction when you have armor on, or something like that.

 

Hmm I wonder how the game it would be if a SM only had about 10 damage reduction total vs a Guardsman's Lasgun? Would they still be able to fight off numerous guardsmen and still win? The problem with it is that Stormtroopers are already at that level with their carapace armor+TB already.

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Okay, first, Aluminum wolf is on the opposite extreme as you, and while I respect his "Heroes Unlimited" view of SM I'll never quite understand it or the desire to play in a game where you can pick up a preadator and throw it, and never take a wound.  As you've said, playing the invulnerable hero isn't that much fun (and is why, as I've said before, authors have to come up with crazy convoluted storylines when dealing with Supermen or readers would stop reading).  But that said and done, you will never, I repeat never ever convince him otherwise.  He is either as set in his ways as anyone (including me) or... well... successful toll is successful. 

Lynata said:

Charmander said:

I don't compare characters. I'm comparing signature equipment. And even Ascension doesn't change anything about it.

"The Sisters of Battle are exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter."
- Codex Witch Hunters, p. 2

You don't have to like it, but don't condemn me for my wish for an accurate portrayal of a faction I tend to like.

 

I'm not attempting to condem you, however my post came across.  Terse, perhaps, tired, yes.  But not to condem.  

After that, AAAAAAHHHHH!

Sisters were put in DH at the base level, and as such had to have DH level gear in order to fit inside of DH.  Perhaps they should've been left out until Ascension (why do I always want to put a T in that name?), but they didn't for better or for worse.  I personally think it's for the better, as you can now play a sister in DH, Ascension, and if you really want (and the story permits the mixing of the ordos) DW. 

IMHO, and from a dudes perspective that doesn't play a SoB, the work done in BoM made the group feel alive and unique (and I've not fully read BoM, I've just leafed through it, so take this with salt), something more than space marines with femal bits.  If I wanted a female space marine, I'd homebrew a female space marine and not try to make the sisters into marines (though I might if I had a woman playing in my group that had issues with playing men...I wonder if I just blew this thread to hell and back with another endless topic...that will earn me another 50,000 Internet dollars).  Sisters are the Chamber Militant that's different, that has real live people in it (however brainwashed) that have a bit of a troubled past; fighting against the emperor and being covinced their boss was an ass and then not having to break up because of a loophole in the Imperial law??  That's got to be at least as compelling as the heresy, and it's not nearly as played out, and a slight loss of face in the damage department to Astartes if you ask me is worth being more interesting.

I promise you if you are careful with the rules, you can make yourself a sister with 13k experience and compete man to...woman...with the 'heroes' of the Deathwatch, bolters or no. 

And if bolters are your final hang up, then when you Ascend, and become a 'true' battle sister, then grant them the 'real' boltguns and add the d10 or +2 to damage (+2 will fit more with the RPG fluff) that way you maintain the DH balance with lower grade equipment, and integrate them into the upper levels, specifically DW.  I'd personally worry they might get a little out of hand being essentially astartes with bonus faith powers, but I can't say with certainty without BoM and a bit of table experience.

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Friend of the Dork said:

If you change this you might as well also change the whole way TB works, or only allow TB to apply to damage reduction when you have armor on, or something like that.

Actually, yes, I would change TB for everyone. I've grown fond of an idea someone else had posted: make normal people's TB "Primitive", and Unnatural Toughness apply to all weapons.

Normal characters are pushing into the realm of invincibility as well when they have PA and a TB of 5+, which is just as wrong. People seem just a tiny little bit "too tough" in general, which doesn't really come up as weird on the lower levels but gets wonky as soon as power armour comes into play. Either that or some weapons deserve a little buff. It's likely a bit tricky to balance as it really is just a few points off the mark in all cases. Another idea was to have weapons do 1 point of "minimum damage" when they penetrate the armour, though that might be a tad too drastic.

All of this would also be no problem if the armour would somehow lose some AP over the course of a fight - you know, chunks of ceramite blown off, little cracks exposing weak spots and stuff. That said, keeping track of armour damage will make for even more paperwork, so I'm unsure if that would really be a better solution. It could make for a more immersive play, though, and give the armour a little more "personality".

Charmander said:

If I wanted a female space marine, I'd homebrew a female space marine and not try to make the sisters into marines

Gah! No, no, no - misunderstanding! I do not want female Space Marines, and I'll be the first to condemn any ideas to work around the established fluff as (a) unnecessary and (b) breaking the setting. As I said, I have absolutely no problem with Marines where they are in the fluff. But the fluff also says that Sisters get equal gear (they have to, they often fight the same enemies, and sometimes even the Astartes as well) - this has been in the official material since their inception and plays a big part in their background, too, and I just don't get why people want to take this away from them to diminish their fighting power. Do you really fear that the Sororitas being on par with Marines on this one level curtails the role that the Space Marines play? Some people obviously seem to think so, despite this always having been the case. So I think said people need to read up on the setting and ask themselves what being Astartes is actually all about. They are more than their guns. Far, far, far more.

 

Charmander said:

I promise you if you are careful with the rules, you can make yourself a sister with 13k experience and compete man to...woman...with the 'heroes' of the Deathwatch, bolters or no.

I'd actually find it far more interesting to play a Rank ~5 "line" Sister alongside a bunch of Marines. I have absolutely no problem with the character being weaker (as it should be), I just can't understand why their equipment has to be. As I said, Sororitas have always been about dishing out the same amount of hurt, but not being able to soak up as much.

 

Charmander said:

And if bolters are your final hang up, then when you Ascend, and become a 'true' battle sister, then grant them the 'real' boltguns and add the d10 or +2 to damage (+2 will fit more with the RPG fluff) that way you maintain the DH balance with lower grade equipment, and integrate them into the upper levels, specifically DW.  I'd personally worry they might get a little out of hand being essentially astartes with bonus faith powers, but I can't say with certainty without BoM and a bit of table experience.

In a way, this is what I have grown to assume: DW simply takes place on another narrative level, and characters moving from one game to the other need to have their gear adjusted to compensate. This would not only avoid this un-fluffy disparity between two classes of weapons, it will also allow combat-centric DH characters to make their shots count for something, even if they are still much squishier and lack a lot of the special talents/options of their Marine companions.

As for the Faith Powers I still lack sufficient experience with them to comment on that myself. Personally and for my current campaign (in which I'll get to play this career for the very first time), I simply plan on not using them very often with the intent of not letting them appear too "common". My inspiring example on this comes from Celestian Miriya in "Faith & Fire" who had employed two Acts of Faith throughout the course of the entire novel. Personally, I think that - regardless of whether if it happens in a book or in a RPG - the rarer something like that is, the better it looks, and the more of an impression it makes.

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Lynata said:

Actually, yes, I would change TB for everyone. I've grown fond of an idea someone else had posted: make normal people's TB "Primitive", and Unnatural Toughness apply to all weapons.

Normal characters are pushing into the realm of invincibility as well when they have PA and a TB of 5+, which is just as wrong. People seem just a tiny little bit "too tough" in general, which doesn't really come up as weird on the lower levels but gets wonky as soon as power armour comes into play. 

This does require, typically, higher levels, where it doesn't seem to matter quite as much, at least to me.  If you reduce toughness to primitive, you will dramatically increase the lethality of DH, where sometimes those 2 wounds is all that's keeping your soul inside your body.

Lynata said:

All of this would also be no problem if the armour would somehow lose some AP over the course of a fight

It could, though I do have to say playing RPGs that have weapon and armor 'durability' make me very much annoyed happy.gif

Lynata said:

 

But the fluff also says that Sisters get equal gear (they have to, they often fight the same enemies, and sometimes even the Astartes as well) - this has been in the official material since their inception and plays a big part in their background, too, and I just don't get why people want to take this away from them to diminish their fighting power.

But they have to fit within the DH parameters when operating at DH levels, don't they, or else eveyrone else in the 'verse will yell about the Sisters being OP'd.  If you play at the experience level of other DH characters you should be in their power band.

Lynata said:

Do you really fear that the Sororitas being on par with Marines on this one level curtails the role that the Space Marines play? Some people obviously seem to think so, despite this always having been the case. So I think said people need to read up on the setting and ask themselves what being Astartes is actually all about. They are more than their guns. Far, far, far more.

Wait, what?  No.  The issue is again within the system, the Marines are supposed to be the ultimate force of humanity, their best defenders.  If you have a bunch of DH Ascension Sisters and toss them faith powers, equal boltguns, and more skills, they're outshine the marines, and that really wouldn't fit with the setting now would it?

Lynata said:

Charmander said:

I promise you if you are careful with the rules, you can make yourself a sister with 13k experience and compete man to...woman...with the 'heroes' of the Deathwatch, bolters or no.

I'd actually find it far more interesting to play a Rank ~5 "line" Sister alongside a bunch of Marines. I have absolutely no problem with the character being weaker (as it should be), I just can't understand why their equipment has to be. As I said, Sororitas have always been about dishing out the same amount of hurt, but not being able to soak up as much.

 

sorpresa.gif

So should I be able to play a level 5 Adept or level 5 psyker or level 5 guardsman and stand along side a bunch of marines and be close to equal?

I totally think I missed something here.  We've both said some stuff that doesn't make sense but this confuses me a lot.  In what other RPG would you expect a level 5 character to have a good time when fighting along side a level 9 character?  In D&D terms it's closer to a level 10 character fighting along side a level 21 character.  You wouldn't do it because despite being able to do a bazillion damage you'd get splattered across the wall in the second or third encounter.  We're dealing with a level based, hit point based, RPG, not a simulator of armies.

Lynata said:

In a way, this is what I have grown to assume: DW simply takes place on another narrative level, and characters moving from one game to the other need to have their gear adjusted to compensate. This would not only avoid this un-fluffy disparity between two classes of weapons, it will also allow combat-centric DH characters to make their shots count for something, even if they are still much squishier and lack a lot of the special talents/options of their Marine companions.

To a certain extent you are correct.  DH moves to 'ascension' at level 9, which is a different theme.  As I said, you're not concerend with the cult in a hive, but the cult in the sector, and you have power at your disposal to do so.  You are the Inquisitor, you're not an acolyte anymore that has to buy your own gear with your personal salary.  I've not played deep enough into RT to know how they handle it.  DW starts on this level as well, and is a combat focused game.  You're not playing chumps, you're playing the important folks in the novels.

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Lynata, you talk about being true to the fluff but the truth is that there is no such thing as the fluff anyway. Or rather, there exists a range of possible interpretations of the 40K universe, ranging from TT marines to movie marines (or those throwing tanks). As I see it, GW adapts interpretation to the needs of a specific medium:

 

- you need balance in a wargame, therefore the Marines in 40K are not totally über (and it would be odd for a game to field 3 minis vs 100)
- in novels you can afford to make the space marines larger-than-life, it sparks up people's imaginations more and thus sells better
- in a rpg about Space Marines you probably need to take it an epic level in order to please the Marines' fans
- in a movie you have yet different requirement. I can understand, for example, why the bolt shells easily penetrated power armour in 'Ultramarines'... it has something to do with expectations of a non-40K audience.

In short, there is no consistency whatsoever. Instead you get to pick your own interpretation. You don't even need to cite sources. Just make up your own game.

 

Alex

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Charmander said:

 

Wait, what?  No.  The issue is again within the system, the Marines are supposed to be the ultimate force of humanity, their best defenders.  If you have a bunch of DH Ascension Sisters and toss them faith powers, equal boltguns, and more skills, they're outshine the marines, and that really wouldn't fit with the setting now would it?

 

Only a name: Vandire.

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Sebashaw said:

Charmander said:

 

 

Wait, what?  No.  The issue is again within the system, the Marines are supposed to be the ultimate force of humanity, their best defenders.  If you have a bunch of DH Ascension Sisters and toss them faith powers, equal boltguns, and more skills, they're outshine the marines, and that really wouldn't fit with the setting now would it?

 

Only a name: Vandire.

I fear something may have been swallowed by the forum demons, was that a direct response to the text in this quote or is there something missing?

 

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Lynata: As said that is a major houserule that changes the lethality of the whole system. Not only the fact that acolytes would die more easily, they would be even more pressed to don as much armor as possibible except when their Inquisitor or GM told them not to.

Another factor is that other creatures that are supposed to be very tough suddenly become easy. The final encounter in the starting adventure, which is supposed to be nearly undefeatable by brute force alone, suddenly becomes not that hard even with just Lasguns and (especially) Autoguns. Orks are slightly tougher than normal but still not that hard to bring down, especially considering their crappy armor (this is actually not a problem IMO). Slaught loses much of their scaryness.

I assume the Daemonic trait still works as normal?

Also one more thing that I dislike about the rule is the fact that so-called primitive weapons that in RL skewers a man in two far easier than a bullet kills, suddenly deal less damage than said bullet. So if you do this I might as well go completely overboard and simply remove the "primitive" quality from weapons altogether, with the possible exception of clubs, rocks and other such weapons that might not be able to do much against armor.

The Primitive armors I would keep, simply for their inability to stop modern weaponry. (Although a good quality full plate is actually decent).

Now with this change I would lower the damage on most enemies in DW, especially Tyranids which can do tremendous amounts of damage in a single strike. That's fine for a Hive Tyrant, but probably not a Tyranid Warrior or worse, hormongaunt.

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You think Marines, etc are too tough?

Use these Unnatural S/T steps (optionally only for Marines, otherwise universally):

x2 => x1.5
x3 => x2
x4 => x3

 

Alex
 

PS Toughness 8 doesn't mean their skin is hard as armour, it only means that they can shrug off wounds that would be a serious wound to mortals (8 damage points penetrating armour). Not unrealistic.

 

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ak-73 said:

 

You think Marines, etc are too tough?

Use these Unnatural S/T steps (optionally only for Marines, otherwise universally):

x2 => x1.5
x3 => x2
x4 => x3

 

Alex
 

PS Toughness 8 doesn't mean their skin is hard as armour, it only means that they can shrug off wounds that would be a serious wound to mortals (8 damage points penetrating armour). Not unrealistic.

 

 

Well although it decreases the toughness, it still falls short of a Imperal Guardsman being able to damage a Space Marine on a good hit (max damage) with a lasgun. To have that you'd need Lynata's rules and standard Power Armor value, or headshot.

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I'm thinking I was wrong because I saw many xeno with unnatural traits: maybe against movie marines we can use smart IG and PDF with anti-tank granades, rocket-launchers, plasma-guns...uh!?

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 As far as the lethality in these systems, I always thought it was a little too heavy on the prevention and a little light on soak. When something makes it through your armor and toughness, at least at DH levels, it has a very real chance of killing you right then. It seems a little all or nothing: either you shrug it off completely or you're severely wounded. Coupled with a fairly anemic healing system (absent Seal Wounds), it gives the game a particular feel. Either something is laughable or deadly without any real in between.

Now maybe that works well with the whole "grimdark of the dark grim" thing, I've never really come to terms with it enough to make a perfect assessment. But if you go the Toughness as Primitive Armour path, you should consider upping wounds by a factor of 1.5 or so. It becomes possible, then, for someone to chip away at your health; not really threatening death at every turn, but also not firing futile shot after futile shot.

Just to return briefly to the original topic, I'm all with you Lynata. I do think you just have to take DH and DW as two completely different, but very similar, systems and any discrepancies just need a loving hand to ameliorate. You've also been eloquent and your points are well-supported. I confess I was only ever lukewarm to SoB, Dawn of War picked my interest up a little but I'm still on the lower end. As far as I'm concerned, f**k the haters, if all fans were as knowledgeable and precise as you are the setting would be in great shape.

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AluminiumWolf said:

If you want to keep up with a Space Marine play a living saint or someone like Ephrael Stern. Theres probably more of them than there are Space Marines.

Space Marines need to be orders of magnitude better than normal people or a lot of the fluff makes no sense.

Which fluff? Cause the main story that I remember was that the Emperor and Legions, back when Legions were hundreds of thousands strong AND the Primarchs were still around, took much of the Emperium in an astoundingly fast 400 years by taking a planet at a time with 10's of thousands of marines.

That's already pretty awesome but I'm not seeing any, dragon ball Z style, sending 1 guy to each planet.

I've had to skim this, and a lot of the citations are far beyond me but.

For me there is a real problem with using these systems together in just the scale of things, and I'm not bringing up the bolter vs bolter issue again, I'm talking about the basic rule book PLASMA guns, doing an average of 1 point of damage to an average SM, or a HEAVY BOLTER doing significantly less than a standard marine bolter. Weapons that we thought were a bit weak before DW came out turn into piddling weapons regardless of age, source or backgrounds. And latter books didn't help much, the weapons stats go up but fractions compared to difference between already mighty standard SM gear and astounding relics.

I mean, I except that any human that is going to be hanging with DW is going to have to be in danger and is going to need all the armour, implants and force fields that the Inquisition can get, but I can't accept that have to be Primaris Psykers (using rules I consider to be pretty much broken) just because they can't get a weapon old enough or magic enough to hurt DW enemies.

A good part of it is the scaling, good armour in this isn't the frikin awesome that it is the TT. It being linked to damage mitigation is double edged sword that means overall it doesn't help marines vs multilazers and autocannons but has little effect on keeping a human alive.

 

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Charmander said:

But they have to fit within the DH parameters when operating at DH levels, don't they, or else eveyrone else in the 'verse will yell about the Sisters being OP'd. If you play at the experience level of other DH characters you should be in their power band.

Which is precisely why I think they were implemented too early, and now their depiction suffers from this. It's the same as if you'd have Marines start together with Rank 1 DH characters and have to balance them that way - I wonder how this would look.

On that note I don't even think it would take much to correct it, as I believe (optimistic assessment) that the weapons in DH work nicely - it's just that someone thought it'd be a good idea to, for example, make the Godwyn-De'az that is supposed to be equal to a Marine bolter (likely the Godwyn-pattern) effectively a good quality standard boltgun like they seem to be sold off the rack. As per the RAW it doesn't even have auto-fire. Small things, but I hope you agree that it doesn't seem like a faithful (if you excuse the pun) representation.

In essence, this comes back to the two classes of weapons again. Space Marine weapons have never been about doing more damage in the fluff, they've been about being available at all and being of higher quality and/or more resilient. That said, all that would be required would be to equalize all the weapons across the board - bang, you'd have eliminated several issues at once: no more two "levels" of guns, no more contradiction to the official setting, and greater compatibility between the different games and characters across the board allowing for easier transition and more fun when playing with a mixed group.

 

Charmander said:

Wait, what? No. The issue is again within the system, the Marines are supposed to be the ultimate force of humanity, their best defenders. If you have a bunch of DH Ascension Sisters and toss them faith powers, equal boltguns, and more skills, they're outshine the marines, and that really wouldn't fit with the setting now would it?

How do you think they would outshine them, though? These skills you mean don't affect combat and the Marines still have their Chapter bonus, Trappings bonus Demeanours, a dozen organs with countless additional effects, power armour with a bag full of backup systems, superior strength and superior resilience. Don't get caught up on the guns - they're not what makes the Astartes special.

 

Charmander said:

So should I be able to play a level 5 Adept or level 5 psyker or level 5 guardsman and stand along side a bunch of marines and be close to equal?

In terms of dealing damage? When that level 5 Adept/Psyker/Guardsman truly has enough strength to wield a boltgun, why not? Face Eater summed it up nicely.

Naturally those Rank 5 characters would likely lack a number of talents and some BS and thus would not be able to hit as many targets, but when they hit, why have their weapons do less damage when they're the originally meant to be same? I think that it's you who has missed something here, either that or we're talking about different things again - this (luckily) isn't D&D where your level makes you utterly useless as soon as you get into a fight with something 5 levels higher. Having a chance to do equal amounts of damage doesn't mean the character is equal in every way. He or she would still be much squishier and have a harder time surviving than those superhuman Angels of Death. Sounds like an accurate depiction of the setting to me, and in my opinion this would still make for an interesting game, perhaps way more interesting than going into Ascension and taking the special snowflake hero gear.

Charmander said:

You are the Inquisitor, you're not an acolyte anymore that has to buy your own gear with your personal salary. I've not played deep enough into RT to know how they handle it. DW starts on this level as well, and is a combat focused game. You're not playing chumps, you're playing the important folks in the novels.

It doesn't quite work that way - characters start to become important way earlier than Ascension, at least within their own respective organizations and if you go by the career/rank descriptions. Few novels focus on Palatines or Crusaders or Judges - instead they are about rank and file characters such as Celestians, Stormtroopers, Commissars, Junior Officers and Arbites Enforcers getting caught up in things. If you really think anything below Ascension is "chumps" then DH did a poor job of portraying the setting.

 

ak-73 said:

Lynata, you talk about being true to the fluff but the truth is that there is no such thing as the fluff anyway.

There are certain facts in the codices, and when they explicitly state something then I don't get why some people cannot accept this and still claim that it is me who is wrong. Personal preference does not override the official setting. Instead my minority gets ridiculed for sticking to what GW says, hah!

 

ak-73 said:

in a rpg about Space Marines you probably need to take it an epic level in order to please the Marines' fans

I can understand that. What I can't understand is the missing understanding that it is indeed a different level of narration which, together with its rules, cannot be compared to DH/RT and that Marines indeed do not have the sole monopoly on epicness.

In the end I'm really just lobbying against a flawed perception of the setting as established by GW studio material.

 

Friend of the Dork said:

As said that is a major houserule that changes the lethality of the whole system. Not only the fact that acolytes would die more easily, they would be even more pressed to don as much armor as possibible except when their Inquisitor or GM told them not to. Another factor is that other creatures that are supposed to be very tough suddenly become easy. [...]

Well, yes, it does change the lethalty, but given that it affects everyone, would that not mean it's still balanced and would merely make the fights a bit shorter? Also we're talking about differences of 2-3 AP - naturally this still means that people will accumulate wounds a little faster, but is it that really too much of a drastic change? How would you go about to address this perceived complete uselessness of certain weapons against Marines or even just geared-up Acolytes and some adversaries? All of these options have (as far as I'm aware) never been playtested yet, so it is quite possible that scenarios might arise which I have not foreseen in my quick judgement of these ideas by certain other users.

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At Last Forgot said:

 

 As far as the lethality in these systems, I always thought it was a little too heavy on the prevention and a little light on soak. When something makes it through your armor and toughness, at least at DH levels, it has a very real chance of killing you right then. It seems a little all or nothing: either you shrug it off completely or you're severely wounded. Coupled with a fairly anemic healing system (absent Seal Wounds), it gives the game a particular feel. Either something is laughable or deadly without any real in between.

Now maybe that works well with the whole "grimdark of the dark grim" thing, I've never really come to terms with it enough to make a perfect assessment. But if you go the Toughness as Primitive Armour path, you should consider upping wounds by a factor of 1.5 or so. It becomes possible, then, for someone to chip away at your health; not really threatening death at every turn, but also not firing futile shot after futile shot.

 

 

The thing is, it does work well, not only with the grimdark aspect, but also the "That's a gun and will kill you" aspect which is woefully absent in some games. I enjoy it, but I'm a fan of tedious set ups meant to disable the enemy in one turn with as little fighting as possible. Also, single shot and sniper weapons take a huge hit in a soak games.

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Lynata said:

 

ak-73 said:

Lynata, you talk about being true to the fluff but the truth is that there is no such thing as the fluff anyway.

There are certain facts in the codices, and when they explicitly state something then I don't get why some people cannot accept this and still claim that it is me who is wrong. Personal preference does not override the official setting. Instead my minority gets ridiculed for sticking to what GW says, hah!

 

ak-73 said:

in a rpg about Space Marines you probably need to take it an epic level in order to please the Marines' fans

I can understand that. What I can't understand is the missing understanding that it is indeed a different level of narration which, together with its rules, cannot be compared to DH/RT and that Marines indeed do not have the sole monopoly on epicness.

In the end I'm really just lobbying against a flawed perception of the setting as established by GW studio material.

 

But there is no "fact", it's a fantasy game, and I might add the fantasy game of a company who is notable for ditching past fantasies for the sake of newers and who has displayed a remarkable inconsistency. You talk about faithful representation - GW isn't all that faithful to itself. It discards old stuff easily if a new interpretation will fit better. Or sometimes change for change's sake (all hail Robert Girlyman).

 

I disagreeing with evening mortal and astartes weaponry. But I see good reason in nerfing astartes-grade weapons and buffing certain mortal weapons.

Plasma, btw, is underpowered in general. In DW the Plasma Cannon is probably the weakest heavy weapon.

 

Alex

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ak-73 said:

But there is no "fact", it's a fantasy game, and I might add the fantasy game of a company who is notable for ditching past fantasies for the sake of newers and who has displayed a remarkable inconsistency. You talk about faithful representation - GW isn't all that faithful to itself. It discards old stuff easily if a new interpretation will fit better. Or sometimes change for change's sake (all hail Robert Girlyman).

A fantasy game that has a setting, which in turn does have certain rules that determine how the world looks and how it should be represented. If people wouldn't take it serious we would not have 13 pages of discussion about that.

I also notice that a large number of my previous posts, suggestions and opinions dealing with this subject have been bashed and ridiculed as supposedly violating the aforementioned rules of this setting - and now that I have provided an official statement that clears it up once and for all, suddenly these very rules become inconvenient and get discussed away as being of no consequence? Because they go against how some people have twisted the Astartes into something they were not supposed to be?

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Lynata said:

ak-73 said:

But there is no "fact", it's a fantasy game, and I might add the fantasy game of a company who is notable for ditching past fantasies for the sake of newers and who has displayed a remarkable inconsistency. You talk about faithful representation - GW isn't all that faithful to itself. It discards old stuff easily if a new interpretation will fit better. Or sometimes change for change's sake (all hail Robert Girlyman).

A fantasy game that has a setting, which in turn does have certain rules that determine how the world looks and how it should be represented. If people wouldn't take it serious we would not have 13 pages of discussion about that.

I also notice that a large number of my previous posts, suggestions and opinions dealing with this subject have been bashed and ridiculed as supposedly violating the aforementioned rules of this setting - and now that I have provided an official statement that clears it up once and for all, suddenly these very rules become inconvenient and get discussed away as being of no consequence? Because they go against how some people have twisted the Astartes into something they were not supposed to be?

So, they did the same thing you did earlier? Is that about what I'm getting here? Either way, I'm done with this thread.

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Bombernoy said:

So, they did the same thing you did earlier?

Funny thing is, I see people claiming I ignored some kind of official fact/proof/etc (I think you are the third now), but everytime I inquire about what, where or when this should have occurred I am met with silence.

 

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Lynata said:

ak-73 said:

But there is no "fact", it's a fantasy game, and I might add the fantasy game of a company who is notable for ditching past fantasies for the sake of newers and who has displayed a remarkable inconsistency. You talk about faithful representation - GW isn't all that faithful to itself. It discards old stuff easily if a new interpretation will fit better. Or sometimes change for change's sake (all hail Robert Girlyman).

A fantasy game that has a setting, which in turn does have certain rules that determine how the world looks and how it should be represented. If people wouldn't take it serious we would not have 13 pages of discussion about that.

I also notice that a large number of my previous posts, suggestions and opinions dealing with this subject have been bashed and ridiculed as supposedly violating the aforementioned rules of this setting

 

Not by me though. And I don't take people who can't debate issues like this without resorting to ridicule seriously anyway. In my view, you probably do have a point which is mitigated by the fact that I don't believe in a fixed 40K canon. It's all somewhat loosely assembled - the good news is that it leaves room for personal interpretations of the 40K galaxy.

 

Lynata said:

- and now that I have provided an official statement that clears it up once and for all, suddenly these very rules become inconvenient and get discussed away as being of no consequence? Because they go against how some people have twisted the Astartes into something they were not supposed to be?

But who decides what Astartes supposed to be? Rick Priestley? Sister Lynata? And why should it matter what Astartes were supposed to be? They have retconned an entire endeared army/race already.

To me, it all works roughly okay. Both DH and DW. I just wanna adjust some weapon stats to reflect more what I think things should be and then I am ready to roll. If you have a different interpretation of the 40K setting, you'll might to have to make different changes. I am fine if a lasgun can only hurt a Space Marine by means of the RF mechanic which I will apply in such cases.

Let me tell you one thing though: FFG had GW's blessing. Future BL authors probably will be inspired by DW. It is possible that this is a beginning of another change in GW canon. Possible but doesn't have to be. Anyway 40K Roleplay has set a precedent which future authors can draw on. You may not like it but it's out.

As for the SoB, I have no female player so the problem doesn't pose itself. If I had I would probably give their Bolters similar stats to Astartes Bolters. But without a SoB PC, it's okay if the Astartes stand above the Sisters in my 40K.

 

Alex

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Lynata said:

"The Sisters of Battle are exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter."
- Codex Witch Hunters, p. 2

And what do you think would of happened if they had the word "almost" instead of "the"?

 

They say they are wearing power armour, yet in almost all the pictures it looks thinner than Astartes power armour (Just look as those feminine

 calf's and waists, some of them look like Mary Antoinette!!), but due to table top limitations they couldn't go with "Save of 4, but if you roll a three you get a second chance+" could they?

This meant that for the sake of simplisity they went with 3+, which due to it's thickness (Or lack of) would technically make it better than Astartes power armour if it actually did give the same protection!!.

 

As it was, IIRC they gave them BS4, Ld8 and faith just to stop them being guard in power armour. They, have faith and power armour and Bolt weapons* and their rich background surely that is enough to make them different and appealing? Surely you need them to have the Best as well do you?

 

*I am not aware currently of the exact difference between and Astartes bolt weapons, but considering the fact that so few people actually get to see an Astartes, let alone see one in action.. I can perfectly see why "lesser" bolt weapons are considered the real thing and people get away with building/ selling knock-offs as the real thing.

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ak-73 said:

But who decides what Astartes supposed to be? Rick Priestley? Sister Lynata? And why should it matter what Astartes were supposed to be? They have retconned an entire endeared army/race already.

In the end, studio material trumps everything. Of course it is true that GW has retconned a lot of stuff already, and likely will do so in the future - but I can only go by what is most current. And the most current information on the setting simply happens to contain things I like, so I lobby to keep them, just as many of the Marine fans lobby against it because of what they would like to see - with the difference that I have GW's current fluff on my side.

Here I see it not only contradicted but outright ignored or proclaimed as un-canon by some posters - in many cases likely due to a lack of detailed knowledge on the subject, as this kind of fluff isn't as omnipresent as the Astartes Awesomeness which gets emphasized all over the source material again and again. Given this problematic situation, I could even think that some FFG designers may be unaware of it, so who knows: me posting such citations and bits of fluff could very well end up clarifying some misconceptions if they take a look at threads such as these. Nobody can know every single detail of fluff that was churned out over the years, after all. If these changes truly are an intended retcon, though, then I have at least tried.

 

ak-73 said:

Let me tell you one thing though: FFG had GW's blessing. Future BL authors probably will be inspired by DW. It is possible that this is a beginning of another change in GW canon. Possible but doesn't have to be. Anyway 40K Roleplay has set a precedent which future authors can draw on. You may not like it but it's out.

Maybe, though I don't believe that either GW or other BL authors will look at weapon or character stats. They'll look at locations, characters and events. You may be right that all of this is the beginning of a retcon, but it is just as likely that GW will continue on its old path, potentially directly contradicting the RPG (I'm primarily thinking of the true status of the Deathwatch here). For the time being we can only speculate, but I suppose we'll see that next year and after.

 

Shockwave said:

And what do you think would of happened if they had the word "almost" instead of "the"?

Well, that's just it, it doesn't. Actually, a lot of the fluff constantly stresses how their armour "provides the same degree of armoured protection" etc, yet apparently some users feel as if this would somehow joggle on the pillar of Astartes Awesomeness and they fight it tooth and nail without realizing that it has always been that way without any negative repercussions on their precious Marines whatsoever. So obviously some people either have a somewhat exaggerated opinion of the Astartes or a seriously underrated opinion about everyone else.

 

Shockwave said:

They say they are wearing power armour, yet in almost all the pictures it looks thinner than Astartes power armour (Just look as those feminine calf's and waists, some of them look like Mary Antoinette!!), but due to table top limitations they couldn't go with "Save of 4, but if you roll a three you get a second chance+" could they?

Artist rendition has always caused some confusion across the board (don't even get me started about Sisters in heels...) - independent of what faction they portray. There are more than enough pictures of "thicker" Sororitas armour (see [this] or [this]), though I also feel the need to point out once more that bulkiness does not equal protection:

Lexicanum has an official image of a Corvus-pattern armour cross section (I'd link it directly but Lexicanum is currently down for maintenance) where you can see that the actual armour plating is quite thin and the vast majority of internals is occupied by machinery and subsystems. You know, all those waste recyclers, advanced biomonitors and auto-injectors (etc.) that are completely absent in the Sororitas' Angel-pattern armour have to go somewhere.
The truly unique strength of the Astartes armour does not lie in some supposedly unequaled level of protection, it lies in dozens of advanced gadgets that allow the Marine to keep on going where other suits would fail their wearer.

A lot of people really seem to be breaking down Tactical Marines to three things and three things only: strong bodies, the most damaging guns and the best armour protection. This is not just overly simplified and in ignorance of a lot of other things that truly make the Astartes the superhuman Angels of Death they are, two of these three ideas are also in direct violation of official sources. And for what? Some kind of superiority complex?

 

Shockwave said:

Surely you need them to have the Best as well do you?

Why should I reject something the official fluff has provided me with? Something that enables them to fill their role in the first place?

Let me turn the question around - why is it that some people feel the Space Marines absolutely have to have the Best in Everything? Do you really feel that threatened by a couple thousand Sisters of Battle that have little relevance for the overall state of the galaxy anyways?

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Lynata said:


Which is precisely why I think they were implemented too early, and now their depiction suffers from this. It's the same as if you'd have Marines start together with Rank 1 DH characters and have to balance them that way - I wonder how this would look.

 

Fair enough, but they are there. TBH I think a level 1 marine would be quite interesting to play. A storyline to include them in DH would be very difficult though, seeing as the jump from L1 to L9+ is quite big indeed, and you'd essentially be a scout pr pre-scout at L1, and end up missing lots of play time as you go off to be indoctrinated, but if you played the marine from 'cradel to grave' so to speak it could be really fun.

Lynata said:


On that note I don't even think it would take much to correct it, as I believe (optimistic assessment) that the weapons in DH work nicely [...] but I hope you agree that it doesn't seem like a faithful (if you excuse the pun) representation.

I only have TT and the RPG to go off of, as I've read precisely zero novels with SoB in them.  In the TT, when dealing with numbers of only 1-6 on your dice, the weapons are equal.  In an RPG setting, increasing the damage across the board doesn't work that well.

Instead of going back and removing SoB from DH, they allowed them to be upgraded.  Then their weapons do slightly less damage.  If that's it, then HR them to increase the damage a bit more and/or HR Sisters out of DH.  There is no need to modify the whole combat system unless you really are gunning for a lethal game.

Lynata said:


Space Marine weapons have never been about doing more damage in the fluff, they've been about being available at all and being of higher quality and/or more resilient. That said, all that would be required would be to equalize all the weapons across the board - bang, you'd have eliminated several issues at once: no more two "levels" of guns, no more contradiction to the official setting, and greater compatibility between the different games and characters across the board allowing for easier transition and more fun when playing with a mixed group.

You can't do this in the RPG though, if you give DH low or mid level folks weapons that do that much damage (and their enemies) you'll end up with a lot more dead PCs.  10 damage to a early PC (average for a DH bolter) is life threatening, 15 will kill nearly all of them (and this is without semi or full auto).  is If that's your bag then go for it and HR that all bolters do DW level damage.  While I think DH bolters don't do enough, taking to DW levels within the confines of DH will be very wonky indeed.  A +2 is about all that is needed IMO.

In the fluff the Marines have been aobut kicking ass and taking names, and again, the easiest mechanic to do that with is increased damage.  Easier than ne to hit rules, easier than making fights with enemies long and drawn out due to moderate damage and high resistance.  Again the guardsman example (poor bastards); if an astartes should be able to blow one up with one shot the weapon has to be able to defeat their toughness, wounds, and armor.  DH boltguns can't do that without shooting unarmored bits.  Thus the weapon damage increase, which allows you to be 'cooler.'  To me, it's a bit like how they handle two handed swords, realistic, no, but fast and easy, yes.

 

Lynata said:


How do you think they would outshine them, though? These skills you mean don't affect combat and the Marines still have their Chapter bonus, Trappings bonus Demeanours, a dozen organs with countless additional effects, power armour with a bag full of backup systems, superior strength and superior resilience. Don't get caught up on the guns - they're not what makes the Astartes special.

Because I'm not caught up on guns, I'm looking at the overall package, which includes non-combat capabilities and encounters.

Lynata said:


Having a chance to do equal amounts of damage doesn't mean the character is equal in every way. He or she would still be much squishier and have a harder time surviving than those superhuman Angels of Death. Sounds like an accurate depiction of the setting to me, and in my opinion this would still make for an interesting game, perhaps way more interesting than going into Ascension and taking the special snowflake hero gear.

If you really want to play lower level folk with higher level folk then there is nothing that I can say at this point to dissuade you.  Knock yourself out, I personally don't find the idea of playing a low wound low tougness character side by side with a damage sponge astartes where I stand a very high likelihood of being vaporized every night the idea of a good time.  In DH this is doable, but in a combat centric game like DW this is less so.

Lynata said:


It doesn't quite work that way - characters start to become important way earlier than Ascension, at least within their own respective organizations and if you go by the career/rank descriptions.

You're important to an extent, I agree, but within the scope of DH.  They're important, but they're not undertaking missions, for the most part, that require the full attention of an Inquisitor or the deployment of a temple assassin.  There is always something bigger in 40k, and Ascenson characters are bigger than DH base characters.

 

Lynata said:


 naturally this still means that people will accumulate wounds a little faster, but is it that really too much of a drastic change? How would you go about to address this perceived complete uselessness of certain weapons against Marines or even just geared-up Acolytes and some adversaries? All of these options have (as far as I'm aware) never been playtested yet, so it is quite possible that scenarios might arise which I have not foreseen in my quick judgement of these ideas by certain other users.

And the average damage increase of the DW boltguns is only 5.  So...is that not a drastic change either? gui%C3%B1o.gif

As for wounds accumulating faster, my DH character would've burnt all his fate points and died outright had he taken 2-3 more wounds with each hit.  It's not an insurmountable difference, but it is one GMs would have to watch closely and could end up in a lot of accidental deaths, especially as you get used to the new system.

How I'd go about the perceived uselessness (despite this question being aimed at someone else), I've already made suggestsions- as AK mentioned decrease DW boltguns by a couple (which I already do) and consider increasing DH boltguns by a couple.  This brings them much closer together while leaving the edge on the DW bolter. 

After that, I don't care that a Level 1 NPC can't hurt my Level 6 PC with high toughness and expensive armor, I just don't.  It's an RPG, a level based one at that, and I'm interested in taking on ever increasing threats, not the same old mooks I took on a year ago.  Also don't directly mix DH and DW, becuse the levels are too disparate.  I find this in almost every RPG I participate in, be it 40k, D&D, WoD (old and new), the terrible Palladium sytems, what have you:  Eventually your powers and/or gear get high enough that outside of very special ambush scenarios you're not worried about some kid with a pointy stick.  "A gun is a gun and can kill you" works with a very specific theme and mood, and could be used in 40k, but you'll lose a ton of the 'epicness' by doing that (which is okay).

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Charmander said:

Instead of going back and removing SoB from DH, they allowed them to be upgraded.  Then their weapons do slightly less damage.  If that's it, then HR them to increase the damage a bit more and/or HR Sisters out of DH.  There is no need to modify the whole combat system unless you really are gunning for a lethal game.

Actually I was thinking about the opposite: Turn down DW guns to DH levels and eliminate this fluff-breaking discrepancy between different "castes" of weapons throughout the board. Why were Marine guns "buffed" from their first appearance, anyways? Again my gaze shifts towards Unnatural Toughness creating weird gaps in resilience by stat-jumping straight from TB4/5/etc to TB8/10/etc and leaving no middle ground.

Alternatively I'd also be content if people would simply admit that DW and DH/RT cannot be directly compared and that characters/equipment moved from one game into the other would have to be adjusted to compensate for a change in "narrative style". I don't mind people having fun in a ridiculously overpowered Deathwatch game that focuses on epicness rather than (pseudo-)realism (as I previously said, I am still intrigued to give it a try myself) - I only mind when people think they have to rub it in my face that this is actually an accurate representation of how things work, in turn indirectly badmouthing the "normals" for apparently using crap weapons despite having full Inquisitorial backing.

As for using higher damage to make combat more fluid - you could just as well lower the hitpoints and/or toughness of the enemies. The result will be the same. Apart from a slightly increased compatibility with the other games.

In terms of HR the Sisters out of DH I was actually thinking to combine IH with BoM and reintroduce the Novice ranks to bump up the fully fledged Sister a bit - that should also address balancing concerns on the lower ranks.

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