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Galandil2

Feat cards:

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This evening we came up arguing about the possible targets of feat cards.

First of all, let me point out some base assumptions before proceeding:

- Every PLAYER can play only 1 feat card in a single turn, so theoretically every player can play up to 5 feat cards in a single game round (in a game with 4 Heroes obviously): 1 during his Hero turn, 3 others during the other Heroes' turns and 1 during the Overlord turn.

- A bunch of feat cards specifically state that the trigger and/or the effect are based on OTHER Heroes (for example, Protect Thyself states that the trigger is when the OL declares an attack against any Hero, and that the player's Hero who's playing the card and all Heroes in a 3 spaces range gain +2 armor)

Now, what happens if a player plays another Feat card, for example Focus, which just states "Play before rolling the dice when making an attack. Gain 2 free surges when making that attack.", or ***** in the Armor - "Play before rolling the dice when making a ranged attack. You gain the Pierce 4 ability for that attack." and wants to play it on ANOTHER player's Hero?

I argued with my players that ANY Feat card can ONLY be played on the player's Hero who's playing the card, except the ones that specifically call out for a trigger or effect that involves other heroes, because, if not, then the rule that prohibits the exchange of Feat cards would be pointless (no need to exchange Feat Cards if I can play all of them on any hero at will).

Am I right?

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Galandil said:

Now, what happens if a player plays another Feat card, for example Focus, which just states "Play before rolling the dice when making an attack. Gain 2 free surges when making that attack.", or ***** in the Armor - "Play before rolling the dice when making a ranged attack. You gain the Pierce 4 ability for that attack." and wants to play it on ANOTHER player's Hero?

Syntax implies the person playing the card is the same as the person making an attack.  "[You] play before [you] roll the dice when [you are] making an attack."  If the subject were different, more words would be required in that sentence.  Similarly with the effect - ***** in the Armor even says "YOU gain the Pierce 4 ability for that attack" - if you're not the one making the attack, then that produces no useful effect, whether you're allowed to play it or not.

If it said something like "Play before the dice are rolled when an attack is made; that attack gains 2 free surges" then one could argue that it's usable on an ally's attack.  But as written, I'd say definitely not.

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Infact the problem came out with cards like Follow Through and Focus.

Focus
Play before rolling the dice when making an attack.
Gain 2 free surges when making that attack.

Follow Through
Play after making a sucessful melee attack on a monster (a melee attack that doesn't miss).
Gain +2 damage for that attack.

Both can be intended as "YOU gain +2 damage/2 free surges" or "the attack gains +2 damage/2 free surges".

But, even grammatically, the latter would need the "s" in the verb if the subject intended is "the attack" (and combining this with the arguing about the no exchange rules I'd say that any card is intended to be played and applied to the playing player's hero and not other ones unless specificed on the card).

Thank you for the quick answer (and sorry for my clumsy english, I'm italian gran_risa.gif).

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Galandil said:

Play before rolling the dice when making an attack.

Play after making a sucessful melee attack on a monster (a melee attack that doesn't miss).

These are the key phrases from each card.  "Play before rolling the dice..."  Who's rolling the dice?  The implication is that you (the card holder) are doing so.  If you have the card then you must be the one who plays it, and since there's no other potential target mentioned regarding who rolls the dice, one assumes that's also you.  Same deal for Follow Through.

I agree with what Antistone said, and I think his logic follows for these two examples.

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Galandil said:

- Every PLAYER can play only 1 feat card in a single turn, so theoretically every player can play up to 5 feat cards in a single game round (in a game with 4 Heroes obviously): 1 during his Hero turn, 3 others during the other Heroes' turns and 1 during the Overlord turn.

Hmmmm....I don't think that this is right? I think it's a maximum of TWO feat cards per round. 1 on the individual hero's turn and 1 on the OL's turn. on page 5 of the ToI rulebook it says: "Important: Each hero player may only play one Feat card per turn. So, for example, each hero player may play one Feat card on his turn, and one Feat card on the overlord's turn." Even the hero players in my group agree that it's only two per round...Are we playing wrong?

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Kain_Dragoon said:

Galandil said:

 

- Every PLAYER can play only 1 feat card in a single turn, so theoretically every player can play up to 5 feat cards in a single game round (in a game with 4 Heroes obviously): 1 during his Hero turn, 3 others during the other Heroes' turns and 1 during the Overlord turn.

 

 

Hmmmm....I don't think that this is right? I think it's a maximum of TWO feat cards per round. 1 on the individual hero's turn and 1 on the OL's turn. on page 5 of the ToI rulebook it says: "Important: Each hero player may only play one Feat card per turn. So, for example, each hero player may play one Feat card on his turn, and one Feat card on the overlord's turn." Even the hero players in my group agree that it's only two per round...Are we playing wrong?

There are 4 hero turns (assuming 4 heroes). So 1 feat card per turn means a theoretical maximum of 4 feats during 4 hero turns and 1 feat during the OL's turn - total 5 feats playable during a single round.
Some feat cards can be played during other hero's turns becasue of the way their trigger is written. Not that many actually, but some.

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Corbon said:

 

There are 4 hero turns (assuming 4 heroes). So 1 feat card per turn means a theoretical maximum of 4 feats during 4 hero turns and 1 feat during the OL's turn - total 5 feats playable during a single round.
Some feat cards can be played during other hero's turns becasue of the way their trigger is written. Not that many actually, but some.

I interpreted his initial post to read that there would be a total of 20 Feat cards played per round. So yes, we're saying the same thing...thank goodness. I was worried. I said two meaning two per hero per round, as you explained.

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Kain_Dragoon said:

Corbon said:

 

 

There are 4 hero turns (assuming 4 heroes). So 1 feat card per turn means a theoretical maximum of 4 feats during 4 hero turns and 1 feat during the OL's turn - total 5 feats playable during a single round.
Some feat cards can be played during other hero's turns becasue of the way their trigger is written. Not that many actually, but some.

 

 

I interpreted his initial post to read that there would be a total of 20 Feat cards played per round. So yes, we're saying the same thing...thank goodness. I was worried. I said two meaning two per hero per round, as you explained.

Sounds like you are still mis-interpreting it (sorry if you are not).
What I wrote is for one (each) hero, not the whole party.
Round 1
Hero 1 turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card (assuming they have feat cards with suitable triggers, which is quite unlikely, but possible)
Hero 2 turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card (assuming they have feat cards with suitable triggers, which is quite unlikely, but possible)
Hero 3 turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card (assuming they have feat cards with suitable triggers, which is quite unlikely, but possible)
Hero 4 turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card (assuming they have feat cards with suitable triggers, which is quite unlikely, but possible)
OL turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card

 

Yes, that does mean a theoretical maximum of 20 feats on one round. I don't think that is actually possible due to the required triggers on various feats, but the rule is that "Each hero player may only play one Feat card per turn", not "one on his turn and one on the OL's turn" (which is an example).
 

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Corbon said:

Kain_Dragoon said:

 

Corbon said:

 

 

There are 4 hero turns (assuming 4 heroes). So 1 feat card per turn means a theoretical maximum of 4 feats during 4 hero turns and 1 feat during the OL's turn - total 5 feats playable during a single round.
Some feat cards can be played during other hero's turns becasue of the way their trigger is written. Not that many actually, but some.

 

 

I interpreted his initial post to read that there would be a total of 20 Feat cards played per round. So yes, we're saying the same thing...thank goodness. I was worried. I said two meaning two per hero per round, as you explained.

 

 

Sounds like you are still mis-interpreting it (sorry if you are not).
What I wrote is for one (each) hero, not the whole party.
Round 1
Hero 1 turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card (assuming they have feat cards with suitable triggers, which is quite unlikely, but possible)
Hero 2 turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card (assuming they have feat cards with suitable triggers, which is quite unlikely, but possible)
Hero 3 turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card (assuming they have feat cards with suitable triggers, which is quite unlikely, but possible)
Hero 4 turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card (assuming they have feat cards with suitable triggers, which is quite unlikely, but possible)
OL turn: all 4 heroes may play a feat card

 

Yes, that does mean a theoretical maximum of 20 feats on one round. I don't think that is actually possible due to the required triggers on various feats, but the rule is that "Each hero player may only play one Feat card per turn", not "one on his turn and one on the OL's turn" (which is an example).
 

Yeah, we're gonna have to disagree. When it says "one per turn", we read it as meaning the Heroes collective turn (all 4 of them) and 1 on the OL's Turn. I asked some of them about it and for us it seems like it would turn into a Feat card debacle. Max of 2 per hero per round works for us. One more for the pool of Descent rules that can be read in different ways I suppose...*le sigh*... :)

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JitD rules page 7:

"One Round Consists of:
Turn 1: First Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 2: Second Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 3: Third Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 4: Fourth Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 5: Overlord Player’s Turn"

If you want to house rule that heroes can only play 2 feats per round, be my guest.  But the rules are 100% clear about there being 5 turns per round.

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Kain_Dragoon said:

Yeah, we're gonna have to disagree. When it says "one per turn", we read it as meaning the Heroes collective turn (all 4 of them) and 1 on the OL's Turn. I asked some of them about it and for us it seems like it would turn into a Feat card debacle. Max of 2 per hero per round works for us. One more for the pool of Descent rules that can be read in different ways I suppose...*le sigh*... :)

You are free to play that way as a house rule, but that is quite definitely not what the rules say.

There is no such thing as a "heroes collective turn".
DJitD pg7 very clearly and explicitly covers what Rounds and Turns are
One Round Consists of:
Turn 1: First Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 2: Second Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 3: Third Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 4: Fourth Hero Player’s Turn
Turn 5: Overlord Player’s Turn

You cannot possibly 'read this' as "2 turns - the heroes' turn and the OL's turn" as it is written.

But a house rule? No problem, just acknowledge it as such so as not to confuse others who ask about the actual rules. happy.gif

FWIW only Disarm (x2), Preventing Evil (x1), and We Are Not Afraid (x3) are usually playable during another hero's turn, although a Mimic or similar OL 'interruption' during another hero's turn will potentially allow a lot of the cards that trigger when a monster attacks (or if the hero has Alertness, when the hero attacks the 'interrupting' monster). And We Are Not Afraid might as well be played at the start of the OL's turn anyway - usually after he has drawn threat and before he has discarded down to hand size.
So it is very far from a Feat card debacle. There are really just 3 cards out of 51 that will often get played during another heroes turn, and one of those is the best Feat there is and better used at other times anyway. The card (2 copies) that is effectively useful on another heroes turn makes it very clear on the card itself that it ought to be used then - Play when the overlord plays a trap card on you or any friendly figure within 3 spaces of you. Nearly every trap that hits another hero will hit that hero during that hero's turn...
In fact the only thing you do really by your houserule is make Disarm no longer play the way it reads on the card and make it  much weaker. Oh, and slightly reduce the flexibility of Preventing Evil (which is not necessarily that bad, though the OL would probably be encouraging it on any cards he can play during a hero's turn, compared to how it could be used)

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We don't play where you only play a Feat card that only affects you on your actual hero's turn. You can play any Feat card as long as it meets the triggering condition, such as the Disarm example. By all means, if it isn't your actual hero's turn but the triggering condition is met on the card, play it. But only one per the heroes collective turn and one per OL's turn. and to us it wasn't a house rule because that's how to rules makes sense to us. but if it is to others, that's fine. happy.gif

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It also could be a case of poor choice of wording. As we all know, there are examples where they use a word that already has meaning somewhere else and contradicts or obscures things. That's what I guess we're choosing to believe. They could mean every turn as you wrote out for a total of 20 Feat cards per round. Or they could of just used the word "turn"meaning the thinking that my playing group has and didn't think that it would contradict a already established rule or sequence of events; which has happened before. We're just wondering why they took the extra effort to specifically mention the OL's turn in, "Important: Each hero player may only play one Feat card per turn. So, for example, each hero player may play one Feat card on his turn, and one Feat card on the overlord's turn." if it is supposed to be obvious that it means the each of the five turns in a round (with 4 heroes)?

Who knows, it's possible they messed up...again. And it's possible we're house ruling it without knowing. Either way, whatevs. cool.gif

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I thought it was 1 Feat card per hero turn and 1 in the Overlords?

 

In theory (and in practice I guess..) in one full turn 8 Feat cards can be played?

1 in each hero turn and each hero can then play a further card in the OL's turn...

Now that I've typed that I'm not sure... Is it 1 card in each hero turn and then only 1 card in the OL turn played by any hero?

They are supposed to be kept secret, even from other heroes, which negates their effectiveness somewhat in my group as I make the hero players keep Feat cards face down so that other heroes cant 'accidentally' read them.

Cue lots of forgetting to use Feat cards. Tremendous!

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khula said:

I thought it was 1 Feat card per hero turn and 1 in the Overlords?

 

In theory (and in practice I guess..) in one full turn 8 Feat cards can be played?

1 in each hero turn and each hero can then play a further card in the OL's turn...

Now that I've typed that I'm not sure... Is it 1 card in each hero turn and then only 1 card in the OL turn played by any hero?

They are supposed to be kept secret, even from other heroes, which negates their effectiveness somewhat in my group as I make the hero players keep Feat cards face down so that other heroes cant 'accidentally' read them.

Cue lots of forgetting to use Feat cards. Tremendous!

Look, its very simple, very clear.
Each hero can play no more than one feat card in each turn.
Each round there are 5 turns.
In theory the number of feat cards playable in a single round is # heroes x5. In practice it is a lot less because there simply aren't that many cards than can trigger in a different hero's turn.

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Corbon said:

 

 

Look, its very simple, very clear.
Each hero can play no more than one feat card in each turn.
Each round there are 5 turns.
In theory the number of feat cards playable in a single round is # heroes x5. In practice it is a lot less because there simply aren't that many cards than can trigger in a different hero's turn.

 

If it's so simple and very clear why have you omitted to mention Fantasy Flight say  " Each hero player may play one feat card on his turn, and one feat card on the OL's turn"

 

Not one feat card each on each players turn...

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If it's so simple and very clear why have you omitted to mention Fantasy Flight say  " Each hero player may play one feat card on his turn, and one feat card on the OL's turn"

That is very clearly marked as an example of how it could play out, not a limitation on how it must happen.

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James McMurray said:

If it's so simple and very clear why have you omitted to mention Fantasy Flight say  " Each hero player may play one feat card on his turn, and one feat card on the OL's turn"

That is very clearly marked as an example of how it could play out, not a limitation on how it must happen.

Ok. Fair enough.

The game says 2 to 5 players. It doesn't actually say that  the numbers are a limitation. It doesn't actually say you cannot play with 6 or 7 or 28 people.

If we manage the rules by exception only, then every rule is fair game.

It's obvious 1 feat card is meant to be played by that turns' hero (with a few exceptions).

Sorry for confusing anyone.

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Antistone said:

Do you honestly not know what the words "for example" mean, or are you just trolling?

I am certainly not trolling. I thought the rule meant one feat card on that hero's turn. I'm sorry I didn't take it to mean all four heroes can play a feat card every turn. If you honestly cannot see that I was being genuine, all I can do is apologise.

And here's me thinking this was a forum for all levels of ability and debate.

In future, before I post I shall remember that.

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Don't pay any attention to Antistone. He and Corbon are the resident rules gurus, but they can also be incredibly elitist and overflowing with jack-assery at times. Anyone who doesn't instantly understand everything exactly as they do is a possible target for vitriol and derision.

But they're definitely useful to have around. :)

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Taking you at your word, I'll assume you're in need of an explanation of "examples":

The difference between a "rule" and an "example" is that a rule tells you something that is always true and an example tells you something that might be true.  Examples are there to help illustrate the rules, but you don't have to do exactly what the example says; rules you always need to follow.

The reason that "2-5 players" prevents you from playing with 6 but "one feat card on your turn and one feat card on the overlord's turn" does NOT prevent you from playing additional feat cards at other times is that the first one is a rule and the second one is only an example.  We know that the second one is an example because the sentence starts with "for example".

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