Tournament Point Costs for Units and What They Tell Us About Unit Strength

[Ebonsword 0]

Looks like Tournament rules for Dust Tactics were posted by FFG earlier today.

One very interesting thing in them is that they provide revised point costs for units.  So, for tournament purposes, the BBQ Squad and the Recon Boys no longer cost the same.  For Tournaments, the BBQ Squad costs *twice* what the Recon Boys cost (30 points versus 15).

So, it appears that FFG is acknowledging that units with the same point costs on their cards are not necessarily equal.

Which kind of begs the question--if these units are worth different point costs in tournament play, why on earth are they worth the same for "regular" play?

[loken14 2]

bcause tourny play is usin double digit numbers and regular play is using single digits so u wont have  that many different units plus tournment play is actually serious playin with ur friends aint

[Ebonsword 0]

Hmm, looking at the point costs a bit closer, I noticed a few more things:

(1) Point costs for two heroes which haven't been announced yet (I don't think they have, at any rate)Johnny One Eye (why do the Allied heroes all have names that make them sound like porn stars?) and Stefan.

(2) No point costs for the Bot Hunters and Tank Killers.  I find this a bit surprising, since they're already available.

(3) No point costs for the new artillery robots, command squads, and snipers.  I'm not as surprised at this, since they haven't been released yet.

(4) FFG seems to think that the Laser Grenadiers are *way* better than they really are.  27 points for them versus 21 for the Battle Grenadiers and 16 for the Recon Grenadiers?  I don't think so!

[TylerTT 1,295]

interesting. i will have to make some stickers for my cards now. i wonder how the scenarios should play using these new points costs?

I'm guessing the new hero's are from the organised play kit. strange that there are no tank killers or bot hunters.

I have killed so much stuff with the laser grenadiers I dont mind the cost, here is a link to the odds of an average shot from their light weapon javascript:void(0);/*1296879278387*/  each of their dice is worth more or less two normal dice. Here are the odds on a normal roll of 8 dice javascript:void(0);/*1296880137311*/

 

[loken14 2]

or those two heroes could be the op cyclone heroes which should be released soon

[Ogrekin 2]

Ebonsword said:

Johnny One Eye (why do the Allied heroes all have names that make them sound like porn stars?)

 

ROFLMAO!

[TylerTT 1,295]

loken14 said:

 

or those two heroes could be the op cyclone heroes which should be released soon

 

 

eh i hope that american lady is not named "johnny one eye"

[Ebonsword 0]

TylerT said:

interesting. i will have to make some stickers for my cards now. i wonder how the scenarios should play using these new points costs?

I'm guessing the new hero's are from the organised play kit. strange that there are no tank killers or bot hunters.

I have killed so much stuff with the laser grenadiers I dont mind the cost, here is a link to the odds of an average shot from their light weapon javascript:void(0);/*1296879278387*/  each of their dice is worth more or less two normal dice. Here are the odds on a normal roll of 8 dice javascript:void(0);/*1296880137311*/

 

I'm not familiar with that site, but I think that you set something up wrong in your equation for the eight dice.

When rolling four dice, your chance of not getting any hits in Dust Tactics should be (4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6) or (4/6)^4 or 19.75%, which matches the results you posted.

However, when rolling eight dice, your chance of not getting any hits should be (4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 * 4/6) or 4/6^8 or 3.9%.

Your results for eight dice show a 13.39% chance of not getting any hits.

 

[Ebonsword 0]

loken14 said:

or those two heroes could be the op cyclone heroes which should be released soon

That's what I thought, at first, but the original announcement for Operation Cyclone says that the two heroes are Rosie Donovan and Manfred Kreuzer:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp

[TylerTT 1,295]

Ebonsword said:

 

 

I'm not familiar with that site, but I think that you set something up wrong in your equation for the eight dice.

 

 

 

you are quite right! here is an updated link, i like viewing the "at least" graph

javascript:void(0);/*1296917198239*/ 

the first roll is 4 laser dice,

the next is four normal dice

the next is 8 normal dice 

 

I was way off in my original estimate, the exploding die are hard to quantify, they have a very different curve compared to a standard roll, still I think it's an appreciable raise in strength compared to any other range 3 troop weapon.

I would love to figure out how to model the sustained fire re-roll in the program as i think sustained fire with lasers is quite strong. actually i think simply doubling the number of rolled dice works in this situation, doubling dice does not work with normal attacks but with the exploding dice i dont see the problem.

If I'm correct here is a comparison of 4 sustained firelaser dice vs 8 normal dice

javascript:void(0);/*1296919032390*/

 

 

 

 

 

[FlorisH 0]

My take on the points costs issue:

The cost on the cards is based on the idea that players use the armies in the core game with the missions from the core game and then with the expansions both sides get the same number of extra units that balance out.

Some of the missions in the supplements will give one player 2 or 4 points more than the other player so that attacker and defender have a differance.

For tournament play your army remains the same for all games and a tournament where everybody has to take the core game armies would become stale quickly. Seeing that the armies as a whole balance out the points are not important, when you introduce the option of taking whatever units you like there needs to be a better spread of costs. Recon boys balance out the BBQ boys but if you no longer have to take the Recon Boys and can opt for a second BBQ then the game looses the balance.

[Winter79 4]

Quite right Floris.

[reptilebro1 1]

Winter79 said:

Quite right FlorisH.

 

So now moving forward though are we going to see cards that reflect this new point system or are they gonna stick to the old everything costs 2 or 4 points. This is the question that I want to know and will be asking at GenCon this year! ( if not answered by then )

[loken14 2]

TylerT said:

 

loken14 said:

 

or those two heroes could be the op cyclone heroes which should be released soon

 

 

eh i hope that american lady is not named "johnny one eye"

 

 

the american lady can get hit by johny one eye

but in all seriousness the points are not always gonna be one or two its wat is the armour number so when more armour number comes out more cost will for non tourney play

[The Weary Warrior 0]

 With the new cost system, we could see more and different units, because there can be a chance for points by models. Case in point the extra Panzerschreck. The new heroes might be future figures you can get in tourneys??

Sadly I doubt there will be any tourneys in my area, part of the problem is that it has been a long time between when the game was introduced and when the 1st expansion figures are to be released. I hope that can be overcome, I really like this game. IF I had the time, I would run them myself, but at best I could only get out about once every 2 to three weeks for a game.

[tjb 0]

In the tournament system what would be a normal game size - 200 points/ more or less? I don't see it listed in the pdf file.

[TylerTT 1,295]

 Yeah they kind of left a huge hole in how the new points relate to the old points in so far as scenarios are played, my guess is this

 

2 old points = 20 new points

4 old points = 40 new points

16 old points = 160 new points

 

each boxset army totals 159 under the new point system

 

I'm not quite sure how scenario 4 would work if your army list for the event did not have 3 "armor 2" squads and a hero in it. i would rule it as

"start with 80 points of squads and up to one hero"

 

 

[reptilebro1 1]

Well the Starter set comes in at 159 per faction. So, I would think that 200 sounds fair.

[The Weary Warrior 0]

tjb said:

In the tournament system what would be a normal game size - 200 points/ more or less? I don't see it listed in the pdf file.

The PDF states it is up to the TO to determine.

[loken14 2]

The Weary Warrior said:

tjb said:

 

In the tournament system what would be a normal game size - 200 points/ more or less? I don't see it listed in the pdf file.

 

 

The PDF states it is up to the TO to determine.

i no but we're tryin to figure out wat a decent size is so we can run one maybe the game kit would go into more detail

[reptilebro1 1]

I like the 200 points game size. it includes the box set along with some extra for you to play with. how about 10 units of recon rangers and a pounder.

I also noticed on the player army sheet that it includes Tiers. I am wondering if this is something along the lines of Tiers in games like Warmachine as where you take certain amount of certain models and you get bonuses.

[FlorisH 0]

In regards to the cards and the tournament points:

This implies that cards will change at some point. (my guess is when they have to print more because the stock has run out).

As for points during tournaments I think 160ap is a good number. This is a tournament and you don't want games to take to long, the minimum number of games is 3 and I feel 90 minutes for a game is the shortest amount of time you can give players. Then take into account settting up each mission, lunch etc. and you have a full day.

160ap also means that people who have only just started playing, or haven't bought any extra models, can take part and the whole idea of tournaments is to help the Dust Tactics community grow.

When you have had a number of tournaments then you can increase the points total. That way players who have attended most of them will have to change their battleplan and it keeps the game fresh for them.

[Ogrekin 2]

 I do not like the idea of "Starter box armies" as the core.  It would mean little sales and stagnation.  I would rather see 200 points right now and I have yet to have a starter scenario from the core box take more than an hour.  Then add more as the selection increases...

[FlorisH 0]

Gobbo said:

 I do not like the idea of "Starter box armies" as the core.

I didn't say that you have to use the starter armies just use the points total for the first few tournaments so that players who are thinking about starting can do so without having to invest in more than the game as their first purchase.

In the end it is up to the TO to decide what the points total will be for his/her tournament, I'm just giving my view.

[The Weary Warrior 0]

loken14 said:

The Weary Warrior said:

 

tjb said:

 

In the tournament system what would be a normal game size - 200 points/ more or less? I don't see it listed in the pdf file.

 

 

The PDF states it is up to the TO to determine.

 

 

i no but we're tryin to figure out wat a decent size is so we can run one maybe the game kit would go into more detail

 

Sorry, I didn't understand. It seems quite obvious to me that the TO most likely will set the point value for the games around 100 pts but not more than 150. Presently a boxed starter set gives 153 for the Allies and 157 for the Axis. Once games become more common and players have bought in to extra sets of troops and Armor 200 to 250 pt. games will happen. Even larger if the boards are combined.