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Emirikol

WFRP3 around the other forums lately

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Ugh... Strike to Stun. It seems that for the most part they really dislike 3rd edition, so it's not surprising to me that they talk badly of it at every opportunity.

I'm pretty sure that once the dust had settled from the first Version War of the Nerds, the majority of 2nd edition "purists" moved to that site. Some of them were total ****** bags so good riddance.

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Yeah, I'd been tempted to post on StS in the past, but... they all seem a touch too grognardy for my tastes. :P

But hey, different strokes for different folks. I still get amused at seeing some of the fallacious arguments still being bandied about in regards to the "negative" aspects of WFRP 3e. If people don't like something, they'll find whatever excuse they can to validate their dislike as being the "correct" stance.

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Many, for the sake of their pride in their own home campaigns, would rather see the game die than see any progress whatsoever. The rest were just mad 'cuz they had to buy new stuff that didn't match their old systems.

 

jh

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Strike-to-Stun used to be a good forum for WFRP info.  Now it's populated by a bunch of old women sitting on the porch bitching about the youth of today.  Sadly that  can't even really be pinpointed to the introduction of WFRP 3.  It started to fall before it was even out.  Such a shame.

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Hmm... they seem to keep a sardonic eye on this forum here. I wonder what they'll say about this thread?

NERD RIVALRY!!!!

But on a serious note it *is* interesting to read up on the game on these other communities. There are some valid points, both positive and negative, that I haven't considered yet.

No game system is perfect, after all.

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Aww...I rather like StS. They're grumpy, and I'm fairly certain they probably think I'm an idiot because I love 3e so much, but I learn a lot over there. Few people know more about the Warhammer world than those guys, and they have some great ideas about how to run games. 

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If anyone had actually bothered to read the threads in the WFRP3 forum on StS, they would have seen that there are two sides arguing about and discussing the game. There are WFRP3 fans active on StS, too, as well as WFRP1 fans and folk who are ambivalent about system and only interested in the setting. When WFRP4 appears, there'll be WFRP3 fans moaning on StS, and WFRP4 fans here calling them grognards and sneering at their goofy dice. After all, the WFRP Narrative Generation app will provide so many more options and details than dice. And card character tokens? I mean, come on! How lame is punched card and abstract movement when you have roll-out graphic tables to run battles on? Meanwhile, abandoned WFRP3 fans complain that WFRP4 is too much like an online game and there still isn't an Elf sourcebook.

As for StS having gone downhill, people might also want to consider the level of forum activity on this site with what it used to be like on the Black Industries forums. By comparison, this site is pretty **** quiet, there's no in-house involvement, and the fan material is depressingly thin on the ground. If WFRP3 is doing so well in terms of sales (as I'm told it is) where are the fans?

Cheers

Sparrow

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James Sparrow said:

where are the fans?

Busy playing a game that's still in print, of course!

Really, you can't base much off of internet communities.  Especially for a tiny niche hobby like roleplaying, the percentage of people posting online is so very low that any volume or trending you take from it might as well be random.

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James Sparrow said:

words word words

Dude, quit being so hurt. It's the internet.

It's like that with every game system that gets a new edition. Why should WFRP be any different?

No reason to go and take it so personally.

I still view StS as a good resource for info and ideas, as others have pointed out. I just don't bother posting because I don't care to hear grognards come up with half-ass excuses as to why their "favorite" system was "ruined".

I got games to play, yo. Ain't got time for dat noise.

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James Sparrow said:

If anyone had actually bothered to read the threads in the WFRP3 forum on StS, they would have seen that there are two sides arguing about and discussing the game. There are WFRP3 fans active on StS, too, as well as WFRP1 fans and folk who are ambivalent about system and only interested in the setting. When WFRP4 appears, there'll be WFRP3 fans moaning on StS, and WFRP4 fans here calling them grognards and sneering at their goofy dice. After all, the WFRP Narrative Generation app will provide so many more options and details than dice. And card character tokens? I mean, come on! How lame is punched card and abstract movement when you have roll-out graphic tables to run battles on? Meanwhile, abandoned WFRP3 fans complain that WFRP4 is too much like an online game and there still isn't an Elf sourcebook.

As for StS having gone downhill, people might also want to consider the level of forum activity on this site with what it used to be like on the Black Industries forums. By comparison, this site is pretty **** quiet, there's no in-house involvement, and the fan material is depressingly thin on the ground. If WFRP3 is doing so well in terms of sales (as I'm told it is) where are the fans?

Cheers

Sparrow

 

Agree on all points. Just to pick up on two,

 

- "no in-house involvement" : It's worse than that. Some fans actively want the community to NOT have an impact on the designer. When FFG originally announced that there would be only one set of basic action cards in Player's Vault, and people pointed out the ridiculousness of that idea ('soooo the PV supports one player who wants all the pieces to go through at home, and not for a group of players?') they got basically trolled for being ungrateful pricks ('FFG has been so kind to us to give us a PV at all so STFU!'). When, months later, the actual PV appears with 3 sets of basic action cards, that is forgotten.

- Quiet forum activity. You bet. If D&D 4E wasn't on its way out, with lots of pre-Essentials players defecting to other systems, a lot of these recent threads wouldn't exist. Number of WFRP 3e threads sits somewhere with Rogue Trader last time I looked, and both significantly behind Dark Heresy. - Don't forget, for the system to be commercially successful it's enough to sustain itself on a fraction (say, a tenth) of the WFRP 2e fanbase, since the entrance fee is perversely high these days. In short, for every one person buying into the game, you can piss off another nine. FFG likes it that way, otherwise they'd have come out with a way for newcomers to buy the ONE essential game component - a 36 dice set - at an acceptable price rate.

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Erdrick said:

It's like that with every game system that gets a new edition. Why should WFRP be any different?

Actually, that's a myth perpetuated on the internet. History has shown that conservative overhauls of extant games, overhauls which don't disenfranchise significant portions of the extant fanbase, go smoothly. Call of Cthulhu, for instance - 7 editions, no edition wars. Or, the Dragonlance line in TSR - you could observe exactly at which point in the several edition overhauls the nerdrage erupted - when the designers thought it a good idea to replace the default system, AD&D, with a shortlived brainfart of their own (SAGA). I'm not saying WFRP 3e is a brainfart, but only history will prove longevity of the system.

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Edtion wars are the amusement of grognards.  A new edition of a game doens't break the old one.  People are never forced to buy the newest edition they just get their feelings hurt that their game is no longer being supported.  Edition Wars are almost souly the result of the internet. 

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Kryyst said:

Edtion wars are the amusement of grognards.  A new edition of a game doens't break the old one.  People are never forced to buy the newest edition they just get their feelings hurt that their game is no longer being supported.  Edition Wars are almost souly the result of the internet. 

One could also make an argument that edition wars help to raise the collective fanbase's blood pressure and keep them engaged in the community.

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Kryyst said:

Edition Wars are almost souly the result of the internet. 

Personal anecdote which may or may not be relevant:

Several of my peers, one of whom is a very good friend, were so swayed by the negative "rhetoric" about 3rd edition on the internet that they bluntly refuse to even discuss it, let alone take a look at the rules. Giving it an actual TRY is out of the question.

You know, the usual stuff: "It's a board game", or "it's an RPG for a new, watered down generation". Oh well.

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Keep in mind regarding FFG's involvement in these boards ...

The WFRP folks are a small department. AFAIK they only recently expanded to add a 3rd person to the team (an Associate RPG producer).  They are pretty busy planning, designing, and what not, all new releases. And there are quite a few releases in the works.  They are quite busy. Also keep in mind that MOST companies are required to be very cautious when making actual posts on forums.  So while it is obvious that Jay & Dan read the boards and see fan input, their responses should be expected to be minimal.  If you want a specific answer to a question, you should use the "Rules Questions" email link to contact them.

This is no worse than other companies, and in fact I think the WFRP3 products released and upcoming actually show significant fan input. For example, the entire line of Guides and Vaults were not originally planned by FFG, but cranked out in record time by the WFRP guys at FFG purely because of fan desire/suggestion.

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morskittar said:

James Sparrow said:

where are the fans?
 

 

Busy playing a game that's still in print, of course!

Really, you can't base much off of internet communities.  Especially for a tiny niche hobby like roleplaying, the percentage of people posting online is so very low that any volume or trending you take from it might as well be random.

 

I don't think that's the case. WFRP2 fans were also busy playing a game that was still in print, as well as writing and posting WFRP2 scenarios, and they still found time to take part in online discussions and call WFRP1 fans grognards. I'm not saying their discussions were necessarily always interesting to me personally, but I do think there was more going on.

Something has changed, although it might not have anything to do with the game - it could just be because these forums are less user-friendly and FFG is not offering to host fan scenarios. I think it would be good if people could see more tangible examples of what fans were actually doing with WFRP3.

Cheers

Sparrow

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keep in mind that MOST companies are required to be very cautious when making actual posts on forums. (...)This is no worse than other companies

 

Actually, I think there's a world of a difference in how different RPG companies interact with their customer base. www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php

But you're absolutely right that it depends on several factors, such as size of staff, and ability to handle online interaction in the first place. The guys at Paizo (who I mentioned in the thread just linked) are superb. I've seen them keeping level-head with people highly critical (sometimes even impolite) about their products or product developments. It takes a lot of gut, interpersonal skills, and online experience to handle that well. The RPG industry is full with people who fail miserably. (Burning Wheel, for instance, successfully turned off lots of customers simply because the author's mode of interacting online with potential or even (!) extant customers is severely off putting.)

The thing is, FFG actually sets the standard for high customer friendliness in the boardgame sector. With their RPGs, however, it always feels considerably more restrained. And that is because these are licensed IPs. I wouldn't be surprised if the way Games Workshop handles their licencees differently since the days of 2nd edition. Just read this thread to see what a trainwreck that is: forum.rpg.net/showthread.php That would also explain the appalling editing standards in all (and I mean: all) RPG books released by FFG. I stopped buying Rogue Trader stuff after the core book for that reason.

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