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Chrynoble

two power/force weapons

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There are indeed lots of minis carrying thunder hammers or leaning on them with one hand. That doesn't make it a one-handed weapon.

I can carry a chainsaw in one hand myself, and would do so. but I need two hands to use it. Look at the size of the thing. It just looks silly to use it in one hand to me. And I'm from the era where these are strictly terminator weapons. I can live with them being used by 'mere' power armour in two hands, but not one.

 

As regards players pulling stuff like 'that', it's why I mentioned the 'and isn't some unique relic or exception' caveat. Those are being worn by a Chapter Master, and no other mini uses such a thing. So players showing me a picture and saying 'see, now I can have one' does more harm than good really. Because it gets the answer 'sure, when you have the renown of a chapter master and ask me to write the relic rules for such a thing!'.

40k has had about 25 years to build a universe and themes, with literally thousands of minis setting the 'tech level' of the game nicely and displaying what can and can't be done. So it's quite useful to use them as a guiding start point for vetoing munchkin or outlandish suggestions. 

I can do maths: Twin shoulder mounted hand flamers would rock. And it'd look cool. But it exceeds what has been repeatedly demonstrated to be shown in the universe. Plus: If players want to hang a load of chuff off their armour, they should go and play Tau! gran_risa.gif

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Siranui said:

 

 

There are indeed lots of minis carrying thunder hammers or leaning on them with one hand. That doesn't make it a one-handed weapon.

I can carry a chainsaw in one hand myself, and would do so. but I need two hands to use it. Look at the size of the thing. It just looks silly to use it in one hand to me. And I'm from the era where these are strictly terminator weapons. I can live with them being used by 'mere' power armour in two hands, but not one.

 

As regards players pulling stuff like 'that', it's why I mentioned the 'and isn't some unique relic or exception' caveat. Those are being worn by a Chapter Master, and no other mini uses such a thing. So players showing me a picture and saying 'see, now I can have one' does more harm than good really. Because it gets the answer 'sure, when you have the renown of a chapter master and ask me to write the relic rules for such a thing!'.

40k has had about 25 years to build a universe and themes, with literally thousands of minis setting the 'tech level' of the game nicely and displaying what can and can't be done. So it's quite useful to use them as a guiding start point for vetoing munchkin or outlandish suggestions. 

I can do maths: Twin shoulder mounted hand flamers would rock. And it'd look cool. But it exceeds what has been repeatedly demonstrated to be shown in the universe. Plus: If players want to hang a load of chuff off their armour, they should go and play Tau! gran_risa.gif

 

I generally agree with you but to be fair: these minis are all chapter space marines, not DW. I would consider DW to be special. Not as special as the Lord of Macragge but somewhere inbetween him and a vanilla marine.

 

Alex

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Also remember the fluff.   They don't always have the ability to make everything easily or at all.  Like Terminator Armor... not everyone gets one now.  So with Force Weapons and Power Weapons... does everyone have one?  Their not like bolters and chainswords... relatively easy to make and accessible... even some Imperial Commasiars and Commanders have chainswords and even bolters or bolt pistols quite often... not the same grade as a Space Marine but still same line of thought.

So look at it this way with Force Weapons... A librarian only gets one after he has completed his training to be a offical SM Librarian... so I bet every force sword and/or staff is individual to the Librarian and not anyone can pick it up and use.  Plus I am sure their not easy to make. 

Plus I see the same line of thought with power weapons... they just don't hand them out to anyone and even then, they only have so many.  If you have one SM in each KT asking to carry 2 power swords or 2 power fists, they would start running out.  And I am sure their not easily replacable, as many such weapons are consider "relics".   The only exception to the rule would be the Lightning Claws, as I am sure they were designed to be used as a pair for the most part.

So I personally would not allow a player to get 2 Force weapons for his Marine as each is tuned to that Librarian/psyker.   As for weilding 2 power wpns, if they want too so badly, have them do the Signature Wargear talent.  

And the other hand, I have 2 players playing Assault Marines and they both are duel weilding Chain Swords, I have no problem with that as they are cheap to requistion and easily massed produced.  Plus it isn't OP all that much.

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Arkidda said:

So I personally would not allow a player to get 2 Force weapons for his Marine as each is tuned to that Librarian/psyker.   As for weilding 2 power wpns, if they want too so badly, have them do the Signature Wargear talent.  

The players aren't worried about having the items now, they are actually trying to plan out their characters careers. They are ok with working for XP, and using that XP to drive towards the goal.

I like the idea of the second PW or even FW can't be requisitioned unless the first one is a signature item. This would represent the rarity of the items and the special prvilage the marine has earned in being allowed to wield two of them.

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i do not see the issue with duel force swords - as it stands its not against the rules and concerning the channeling of psychic energy its a free action as long as you do some damage after TB and Armor have been resolved they just run the risk of causing Perils more and even if you did limit the channeling to ONE per round of combat why not allow a +10 to the roll surely two swords would be a better conducter for warp energy then one would. Also it wouldnt make the sword useless as it still has the power field rule and it increases in strength as the librarian does. As a GM id rather a close combat pysker relying on blades then his powers anyway my librarian toasted a main bad guy today with smite for nearly 45 dmg with a pen of 6 because he pushed himself and what did he roll when he did phenomena the animals got a little bit scared... rediculous,

 

But yeah just food for thought there.

 

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LittleHorus88 said:

i do not see the issue with duel force swords - as it stands its not against the rules and concerning the channeling of psychic energy its a free action as long as you do some damage after TB and Armor have been resolved they just run the risk of causing Perils more and even if you did limit the channeling to ONE per round of combat why not allow a +10 to the roll surely two swords would be a better conducter for warp energy then one would. Also it wouldnt make the sword useless as it still has the power field rule and it increases in strength as the librarian does. As a GM id rather a close combat pysker relying on blades then his powers anyway my librarian toasted a main bad guy today with smite for nearly 45 dmg with a pen of 6 because he pushed himself and what did he roll when he did phenomena the animals got a little bit scared... rediculous,

 

But yeah just food for thought there.

 

 

That is a very good point, when considering Balance issues opportunity cost is a large factor. Smite is area effect as well, so if there had been a henchman withing 2 meters (I think?) he would have gotten reduced to ash along with the main boss.

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Siranui said:

 There are indeed lots of minis carrying thunder hammers or leaning on them with one hand. That doesn't make it a one-handed weapon.

I can carry a chainsaw in one hand myself, and would do so. but I need two hands to use it. Look at the size of the thing. It just looks silly to use it in one hand to me. And I'm from the era where these are strictly terminator weapons. I can live with them being used by 'mere' power armour in two hands, but not one.

 

 

While it was a RT question, Ross made it clear that Thunder Hammers do not require two hands to use.  This is for non-power armoured humans using a human-sized Thunder Hammer, but I would imagine that power armoured Astartes should be able to do the same with an Astartes Thunder Hammer without too much of a problem. 

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And you're more than welcome to use that interpretation in your games. But for me, it's a one-handed weapon, except for terminators. On the brighter side, I'm happy for it merely to be unbalanced when used in two hands...

DW are special, but they're not as special as a Chapter Master.

 

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Siranui said:

And you're more than welcome to use that interpretation in your games. But for me, it's a one-handed weapon, except for terminators. On the brighter side, I'm happy for it merely to be unbalanced when used in two hands...

DW are special, but they're not as special as a Chapter Master.

 

I don't think that came out the way you meant it to.

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 @Siranui

I also don't think that you meant to write what you just wrote. Reread that post carefully. gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

 

Other than that, I really don't see any problem with two power weapons - they're pretty much standard issue for high-level Dark Heresy melee assassins and quite a few Rogue Trader characters are also using them.

Regarding force weapons, you could theoretically have more than one, but their usage is a little unclear. At least in Dark Heresy (and I believe in RT as well), you can use Focus Power only once per round, regardless of what kind of action it is, meaning you can only use the Force Weapon's ability once, even if you have Swift Attack or two weapons. Thus, the only benefit you'd get from a second force weapon would be that you have another weapon that is impervious to power fields.
I haven't read the psychic power rules too carefully yet so I don't know if this limitation has made it into DW, but it's one I recommend implementing in any case.

 

As for the "have I seen it on a model?" question... I don't think highly of it, to paraphrase my original (rather unprintable) thought. There's only a finite number of models, quite a bit more finite than the number of interesting player ideas, in fact. Have I seen a Marine in Power Armour with a shotgun? No. Could the Marine pick up the shotgun of his fallen buddy in scout armour if his boltgun was out of ammo? Sure. Could he requisition it again in a situation which called for less overpenetration than a boltgun has? Sure. Have I seen an Imperial Guardsman with a Tau pulse rifle? I don't think I have, but I certainly wouldn't prohibit it if it was in a DH game with the players working for a Radical Inquisitor (who just happened to get his hands on a xeno weapon from half a galaxy away, but I digress).

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Totally unrealted, but on the model argument, I generally agree with Cifer. But I would make a slight alteration:

"Can I fit all these weapons on a model in a way that makes sense."

This prevents multiple heavy weapons, carrying dual storm bolters while also carrying a heavy bolter, that sort of thing.

 

As far as the OP's argument, dual power weapons is not an issue, if they can afford it. Dual force weapons, as Cifer also said, its murky how the focus power test actually works in this case. I would probably prohibit it from being triggered multiple times by force weapon damage in a single round, just to prevent total insta gibbing of enemies. Certainly, a powerfist + force sword combo is pretty scary. At least they don't have a ranged weapon without having to actually have their turn come up and draw weapons.

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Siranui said:

And you're more than welcome to use that interpretation in your games. But for me, it's a one-handed weapon, except for terminators. On the brighter side, I'm happy for it merely to be unbalanced when used in two hands...

DW are special, but they're not as special as a Chapter Master.

 

 

I would like to point out while there may not be actual models for it.  In the standard space marine codex using a standard force organization chart.  You can have 40 guys all carrying two thunder hammers, and they are all in power armor.

2 captains, 8 command squad veterans, 30 vanguard veterans.

So while it might not be something a beginning space marine can do, it is certainly possible for it to be done by ones other than chapter masters or special characters.  Sergeants of any stripe can use two powerfists also, so that number is even higher.

 

It is your game and you can deny it if you want.  However it is perfectly valid in the table top (which you seem to use as your filter), they just haven't made a model for it.

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jago668 said:

It is your game and you can deny it if you want.  However it is perfectly valid in the table top (which you seem to use as your filter), they just haven't made a model for it.

Tabletop certainly is not my initial filter, having not played it since 40kRT: The models are.

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Siranui said:

jago668 said:

 

It is your game and you can deny it if you want.  However it is perfectly valid in the table top (which you seem to use as your filter), they just haven't made a model for it.

 

 

Tabletop certainly is not my initial filter, having not played it since 40kRT: The models are.

 

But there are tons of things that don't have models, one example is combi-flamers.  There aren't any space marines with combi-flamers.  So none in your game then?  No using a power fist and combi-weapon.  No lightning claw and boltgun (or combi).  No space marines with dual bolt pistols, or dual chainswords?

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 Are you dissecting and wishing to discuss in depth my common sense and decision-making process when I GM games? I mean, we can... if you really want... I can maybe do a flowchart, although it may get sidetracked with lots of 'Are you thinking about having a cup of tea?' decision boxes. cool.gif

I did say INITIAL filter....

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