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Fortinbras

Advantages of non-bolter ballistic weapons?

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 Why should a character carry a naval shotgun or a snub-nose pistol when he can easily carry a bolt pistol or Inferno Gun?   Are there any statistics other than availability that make them a preferable choice?

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Errant said:

 

 Style, for one. For another, you're less likely to blow a hole in the wall of a ship's hull with a naval shotgun than with an inferno pistol.

 

 

The armor rating on a standard ship bulkhead is, recalling just offhand, 24?  So it would have to be a pretty powerful hit to penetrate that.     It is a cool concept to tinker with though.     But...style?  What's stylish in the 41st Millenium about a snub-nose pistol, compared to a bolt pistol?  

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There is no reason. In the 40k universe the bolt weapon is the best you can get for personal weaponry, while still being a ballistic weapon. OTOH Bolt weapons are quite a but more expensive than a normal laspistols or assault pistols. But when you are a RT you only want the best. Different discussion when one is equipping platoons or even regminets of rank and file footsoldiers.

Also the ships hull cannot be breached by a personal weapons. Even a Lascannon should have a hard time of actually breaching the hull. Sunsear laser macrobatteries were invented for that.

Ventilation systems, and fuel pipes do have unnerving tendency to blow up when hit.

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 Well, even at the macro-level, in a world where the Lasgun is the standard Imperial Guard armament, why would you stock your ratings with an armory of ballistic weapons?    Unless you didn't trust them.  demonio.gif

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Why, that sounds like the perfect reason to give them autoguns! Here, (presumably) loyal crewman! Have a deadly weapon with which to kill the enemy and two spare clips of ammunition. I have plenty more if you need it, but good luck getting it if you turn on me you slimey, downtrodden traitor in the making. Lasguns are a little bit...easier to get ammo for. Outside of situations like that, planets that use projectile weapons might have a thriving arms industry that makes a lot of money on bullet sales whereas lasguns would only generate a pittance after they're sold because you only need to plug in the charge packs to get extra 'bullets'.

There's also automatic fire to consider. Basic las weapons don't have semi-/full- auto modes. This isn't a problem for an Imperial guardsmen - he'll be using the aim action religiously and praying he has enough ammo to last the night. But for a hive ganger or a poorly trained armsman in close quarters, spray and pay is what they'll be looking for.

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I'm pretty sure the standard lasgun has a semi-auto mode.  S/3/-, right?

The lasguns would be more economical with easier storage since you just recharge the magazines in the armory.  Just don't keep recharging stations in unsecured areas and you should be ok.   Generally I would be more worried about ballistic weapons among the crew, since you could probably crudely fashion a munitions depot out of whatever scrap metal on board the ship you could find.   Meanwhile, the poor-man's lasgun pack recharger halves its capacity and reduces its firepower.  

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You're right about the semi-auto. Just double checked that myself (should've done it before posting but c'est le vie). As for recharging power packs, I'm fairly certain you can do it almost anywhere - as in, if you have an electrical outlet, you can recharge it (rules say any standard power source will do in the las weapon's description and you can tech-use for stranger power sources). Ships are going to be full of places where you can recharge a lasgun. They certainly are more economical though, that's why the IG uses them after all, so if you don't care about your crew possibly getting unlimited ammunition then you definitely should be using las weapons.

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A scatter weapon is awfully useful at close range.

A shotguns tends to make a hash of enemies at close range (as long as they are not too heavily armored) :) 

Burst and full auto scatter weapons make me giggle:) Very good for close range shipboard fights.

Some of the heavy SP weapons are useful.

But the fluff is pretty clear SP weapons are low tech,  and inferior to other choices.

 

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Well a standard lasgun goes 1d10+3 pen 0 and a shotgun does 1d10+4 pen 0...

Those special ammos can be quite fun as well:)  Incinerator shells anyone:)

But for player use unless you are going to go heavy (assault cannons and autocannons have their charm) I would not touch the SP weapons.

Edit: Ohh!! wait just noticed the ripper pistol :)  grade "A" that one at least as good as a bolt pistol.

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Ballistic non energy weapons have a few advantages over bolters that might make even rich traders give them a look.

 

1) You can silence a slug thrower. Bolters really don't do silence well, though there are shells for that they're harder to get and of limited use compared to the supressed sniper rifle from into the storm.

2) Easy acess to specialty munitions: Acid, snare, incendiary, flesh ripping, armor punching, flame belching, and if you have DH: Ascension self guiding are just some of the options for the varied stubber, auto, and shotgun types out there.

I've honestly been eyeing the vanaheim shotgun fro Inquisitor's handbook with a fire selector just for the potential to have the executioner shells, snare shells, and something else all in one cheap weapon. Throw a chain combat attachment on it and my kroot has a cheap replacement for his storm bolter.

3) Fluff makes them easier to repair, rearm, and acquire: Yeah okay so unless you're a GM who really enforces availability rules this probably doesn't apply but just going by those rules and a bit of flavor you can make 'low tech' guns the only options in most places without a dedicated cadre of ad.mech armourers. This is especially true if you want to get more than one or two.

 If my players tried to equip all their shipboard troops with boltgun style weapons I'd make it an entire endeavour and require a trip to a friendly forge world. Also if they were trapped on a planet with no acess to their ship for a while I'd likely be less harsh in ammo limits for the 'low tech' options.

 

4) You don't stand out as much with a autopistol or shotgun: While most RT players will go for the showy epic stuff there are times when wielding the pinnacle of imperial death dealing isn't gonna work. You assassinate someone with a bolter or melta weapon and you've just narrowed the list down to a handful of higher echelon types who can afford the weapon and or user of such a device. Only thing worse would be using a xenos weapon to do the killing.

Not to mention people might want to mug you for that shiny bolt pistol you wear. Any ganger worth his tats would shank you in an instant if they thought they could get away with it before you cleared leather.

One more thing to remember is that lasguns are reliable so long as they, and their charge packs are well maintained. Think of them as M16s, and the autogun as an Ak-47. BOth good, and reliable but one requires a lot more care to prevent problems and isn't as readily available. Again, fluff bit, until you start recharging your lasgun packs without proper equipment.

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No need to breach the 'hull' of the starship, just the airtight seal. ;) Hit the wrong section and you'll be sucking void. You can't expect the full 5 meter adamantium armour layer to be fully voidproof, only the 'interior' shell is pressurized. Which is why the armour doesn't cause morale/crew casualties when it absorbs all the damage from a hit.

 

Therefor, shotguns and SP weapons are the shizzle. Normally I wouldn't penalize my players for using bolters...they're just going to be expensive for the entire crew. But my group has found the downsize to having equipped most of their guardsmen with hellguns when a stray shot punched through a void-seal and accompanying airlock....

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Well the problem is they cranked the enemies up to a power level to fight the players. 

Can you imagine the crew trying to kill Rak'Gol with what the fluff says they are armed with?

Even the ubiquitous Ork is all but unkillable to the common crew or armsmen. 

While even arming the common crew with shotguns or lasrifles is a huge step up they honestly need a lot more if they can hope to repel xenos boarders.

Or at least a bunch of troops (with good gear on board to do it for them).

As to it being to expensive...  well I would submit that a single round of macro cannon fire would cost more than all the bolter shells expended by a bolter armed crew in a boading action..   Bleh never mind the macrocannons just look at what your turrets are made up of..  Your ship is covered in things like missile launchers and vulcan mega bolters. 

As to the heavier weapons causing problems..  yep they can.  You will probably chew up some machinery not sure how you would handle that in game terms as it would probably not be enough to cause component damage or anything, and small holes in the hull (anything less than a lascannon and you can forget it) would not be enough to depresurize what the game considers a whole component soo.. 

My point?  Arm up as much as you can, as soon as you can.

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Another good reason to use other weaponry then Bolt Guns is for sporting reasons or sniping reasons if you like. Hence the trusty huntergun and Long Las. Long rnaged, accurate and very deadly when properly aimed. Very handy and it makes for a nicer trophy as well.

"Look, here is the dreaded Pteron Tigroid from Proxima 3, don't mind the huge holes or the burned furs. You have my word that it is the real thing, honest"

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llsoth said:

Well the problem is they cranked the enemies up to a power level to fight the players. Can you imagine the crew trying to kill Rak'Gol with what the fluff says they are armed with?Even the ubiquitous Ork is all but unkillable to the common crew or armsmen. While even arming the common crew with shotguns or lasrifles is a huge step up they honestly need a lot more if they can hope to repel xenos boarders.

As a GM, I was planning to use the horde rules from Deathwatch for any large-scale armsman conflicts - that would even out the damages nicely. I suspect we'll see a redux of those rules (or similar) in Battlefleet Koronus.

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Rift said:

No need to breach the 'hull' of the starship, just the airtight seal. ;) Hit the wrong section and you'll be sucking void. You can't expect the full 5 meter adamantium armour layer to be fully voidproof, only the 'interior' shell is pressurized. Which is why the armour doesn't cause morale/crew casualties when it absorbs all the damage from a hit.

 

Therefor, shotguns and SP weapons are the shizzle. Normally I wouldn't penalize my players for using bolters...they're just going to be expensive for the entire crew. But my group has found the downsize to having equipped most of their guardsmen with hellguns when a stray shot punched through a void-seal and accompanying airlock....

I'm not quite comprehending your logic.  A single stray round shouldn't cause a depressurization event in a component, unless you buy into "explosive decompression", which is an urban myth.

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Fortinbras said:

Rift said:

 

No need to breach the 'hull' of the starship, just the airtight seal. ;) Hit the wrong section and you'll be sucking void. You can't expect the full 5 meter adamantium armour layer to be fully voidproof, only the 'interior' shell is pressurized. Which is why the armour doesn't cause morale/crew casualties when it absorbs all the damage from a hit.

 

Therefor, shotguns and SP weapons are the shizzle. Normally I wouldn't penalize my players for using bolters...they're just going to be expensive for the entire crew. But my group has found the downsize to having equipped most of their guardsmen with hellguns when a stray shot punched through a void-seal and accompanying airlock....

 

 

I'm not quite comprehending your logic.  A single stray round shouldn't cause a depressurization event in a component, unless you buy into "explosive decompression", which is an urban myth.

Urban myths may be the reality in the WH40K universe.  Things tend to go with cinematic physics more than real world ones.

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Fortinbras said:

 

 Ah, and yet again we see Happydaze favoring something that punishes the player in an absurd, nonsensical manner.  How's that sense of moral superiority working out for you?  happy.gif

 

 

I'm not sure if you want to fight with me or **** me?  Is this your way of trying to find an online date?

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 even among the Rogue Traders, there are those who prefer something they're used to and can easily cutomise to a specific situation over something theoretically better. For example, my rogue trader runs around with a hand cannon, recoil glove, and a chainsword. He can afford a bolt pistol, and can easily acquire a much better xenos melee weapon, but the cannon and the sword have seen him through a LOT. To him, it makes more sense to hold onto something you know inside and out, even when something "better" is offered.

Another good example is the Archmilitant who holds onto his hellgun from his IG days as a shock trooper instead of opting for, say, a multimelta. It's a lot easier to maintain and customise a hellgun than the Melta. give a hellgun a chain bayonet, a red dot sight, and a collapsable stock, and you've got a weapon great for close quarters and open field fighting. Now try doing the same thing with a multi melta and see how far you go.

tack that with all the other reasons listed thus far, and it comes down to power versus practicality. can you make a bolter with a red dot, a chain bayonet, and a collapsable stock? Sure! will it make you stand out when you're trying to infiltrate a potentially renegade regiment of Guardsman? Absolutely! and therein lies the problem. You can dish out a whole helluva lot more damage with a bolter, but you can get further without being noticed with a hellgun. besides, it's likely that if you barricade yourself in an IG armoury, you're going to find pallets upon pallets of las, SP, and perhaps some rocket ammo, enough to last you until the Emporer decides to get up from his throne. However, you'll count yourself lucky if you find enough bolter ammo to last you for the next hour.

 

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Gillam Harrow said:

tack that with all the other reasons listed thus far, and it comes down to power versus practicality. can you make a bolter with a red dot, a chain bayonet, and a collapsable stock? Sure! will it make you stand out when you're trying to infiltrate a potentially renegade regiment of Guardsman? Absolutely! and therein lies the problem. You can dish out a whole helluva lot more damage with a bolter, but you can get further without being noticed with a hellgun. besides, it's likely that if you barricade yourself in an IG armoury, you're going to find pallets upon pallets of las, SP, and perhaps some rocket ammo, enough to last you until the Emporer decides to get up from his throne. However, you'll count yourself lucky if you find enough bolter ammo to last you for the next hour.

 

Good points in general, but the hellgun is still pretty uncommon (Rare) and it does require special power packs too. It's probably not the weapon of choice for going unnoticed amongst Guardsmen (excepting Stormtroopers), but that's usually more of a Dark Heresy concern.

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Gillam Harrow said:

 

Can you make a bolter with a red dot, a chain bayonet, and a collapsable stock? Sure! will it make you stand out when you're trying to infiltrate a potentially renegade regiment of Guardsman? Absolutely! and therein lies the problem. 


 

"Lord Captain, I have disturbing news.  I suspect that the Imperial Guard regiment planetside is tainted by Chaos."

"Indeed, Missionary?  How disturbing.  Drastic action is required."

"Yes sir, I propose that we infiltrate myself and a small cadre of ratings disguised as guardsmen and see if we can't..."

"Helm, orient the ship towards the planet's surface.  Gunners, full lance strike on the Imperial Guard base, have Guncutters and every single one of our shuttles readied with a full compliment of our finest marines.  Leave nothing alive."

"...Or we could do exterminatus.  Exterminatus is good too."

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Fortinbras said:

"Lord Captain, I have disturbing news.  I suspect that the Imperial Guard regiment planetside is tainted by Chaos."

"Indeed, Missionary?  How disturbing.  Drastic action is required."

"Yes sir, I propose that we infiltrate myself and a small cadre of ratings disguised as guardsmen and see if we can't..."

"Helm, orient the ship towards the planet's surface.  Gunners, full lance strike on the Imperial Guard base, have Guncutters and every single one of our shuttles readied with a full compliment of our finest marines.  Leave nothing alive."

"...Or we could do exterminatus.  Exterminatus is good too."

Of course, once you have IG down there, one could argue that you are no longer outside the borders of the Imperium of man and the Warrant of Trade means null and void there. Calling for an Exterminatus would be Heresy. ;)

 

 

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