Possible Melee use of pistols change need opinions

[chrismata 0]

 RAW it states you use BS to use a pistol in CC.   I was feeling it would more appropriate to use WS.  While locked into melee, it makes more sense that combat style would change.   Or possibly a penalty if you engage with someone with melee weapons and you have none.  

Besides from parrying, It would make more sense damage wise to build a high BS character with some awesome talents and use 2 bolt pistols fire semi auto.

 

do you think it would make melee weapons more attractive than the 2 pistol route?  

[Nimon 0]

 

                                     I guess in some situations you could do that, certainly if you had a rifle with some sort of bayonette, though of corse you would not add str bonus to damage of a bullet. Perhaps you have to make a successful WS score before you can even fire using BS.  There have been many debates on this, but you do have a valid point and no system for it is perfect.

[chrismata 0]

yeah i realize these topics have probably been beat to death.  I just started DW myself not too long ago.  I am behind the curve.  

 

thanks though  

 

 

Nimon said:

 

                                     I guess in some situations you could do that, certainly if you had a rifle with some sort of bayonette, though of corse you would not add str bonus to damage of a bullet. Perhaps you have to make a successful WS score before you can even fire using BS.  There have been many debates on this, but you do have a valid point and no system for it is perfect.

[Charmander2 6]

Nimon said:

 

I guess in some situations you could do that, certainly if you had a rifle with some sort of bayonette, though of corse you would not add str bonus to damage of a bullet. Perhaps you have to make a successful WS score before you can even fire using BS.  There have been many debates on this, but you do have a valid point and no system for it is perfect.

 

 

The rifle with a bayonette counts as a spear when wielded in melee combat, and cannot be fired at the opponent due to it's size (and the fact that's pretty awkward).  Only pistols, unless special exceptions are made, can be used in hand to hand combat.

chrismata said:

RAW it states you use BS to use a pistol in CC. I was feeling it would more appropriate to use WS. While locked into melee, it makes more sense that combat style would change. Or possibly a penalty if you engage with someone with melee weapons and you have none.

 

 

Besides from parrying, It would make more sense damage wise to build a high BS character with some awesome talents and use 2 bolt pistols fire semi auto.

 

do you think it would make melee weapons more attractive than the 2 pistol route?

 

 

In the RAW, at least in DeathWatch, you cannot fire pistols into melee on any mode other than single shot. This rule in and of itself makes melee weapons and melee multipe attack talents more attractive for engaging in melee. 

As far as which to pick, it depends on the character. Melee weapons and the strength bonus addition can make characters built for melee quite formidable, equal to or superior to pistol wielding characters.

I don't personally agree with changing BS to utilize WS in close combat, as when I imagine it, a guy who is fantasic with a sword may still be inept when trying to shoot someone in the face who is wrestling with him. I think the update to the DW pistols in melee rule solves pistol dominance in hand to hand quite cleanly.
 

[Nimon 0]

 

 

                          Best way to remove a bayonett from a body is to discharge the weapon is what I was taught in basic by korean war vets.

[ak-73 248]

Nimon said:

 

 

                          Best way to remove a bayonett from a body is to discharge the weapon is what I was taught in basic by korean war vets.

 

Depending on your bolt ammo you might damage the bayonet though. :-)

 

Alex

[Siranui 2]

 Best way to remove a bayonet is to have not stuck it in too **** far in the first place...

[chrismata 0]

they changed the rule that you can use pistols in CC?   

 

Is it in the FAQ?  and what pistols update was there?   I read the errata and must have missed it.  

 

Charmander said:

Nimon said:

 

I guess in some situations you could do that, certainly if you had a rifle with some sort of bayonette, though of corse you would not add str bonus to damage of a bullet. Perhaps you have to make a successful WS score before you can even fire using BS.  There have been many debates on this, but you do have a valid point and no system for it is perfect.

 

 

The rifle with a bayonette counts as a spear when wielded in melee combat, and cannot be fired at the opponent due to it's size (and the fact that's pretty awkward).  Only pistols, unless special exceptions are made, can be used in hand to hand combat.

chrismata said:

RAW it states you use BS to use a pistol in CC. I was feeling it would more appropriate to use WS. While locked into melee, it makes more sense that combat style would change. Or possibly a penalty if you engage with someone with melee weapons and you have none.

 

 

Besides from parrying, It would make more sense damage wise to build a high BS character with some awesome talents and use 2 bolt pistols fire semi auto.

 

do you think it would make melee weapons more attractive than the 2 pistol route?

 

 

In the RAW, at least in DeathWatch, you cannot fire pistols into melee on any mode other than single shot. This rule in and of itself makes melee weapons and melee multipe attack talents more attractive for engaging in melee. 

As far as which to pick, it depends on the character. Melee weapons and the strength bonus addition can make characters built for melee quite formidable, equal to or superior to pistol wielding characters.

I don't personally agree with changing BS to utilize WS in close combat, as when I imagine it, a guy who is fantasic with a sword may still be inept when trying to shoot someone in the face who is wrestling with him. I think the update to the DW pistols in melee rule solves pistol dominance in hand to hand quite cleanly.
 

[MILLANDSON 306]

Nope, there was no rule change. What he said was, to my knowledge, not what the rule is in the book.

[chrismata 0]

 My bad.  I read it as you cannot fire a pistol during melee.  

 

DW is a definite step up in power level from running DH games.  

Its a lot to wrap your head around.

 

[ak-73 248]

MILLANDSON said:

Nope, there was no rule change. What he said was, to my knowledge, not what the rule is in the book.

 

Pistols can be used to make Standard Attacks (page 140). This implies no bursts, doesn't it? Page 246 explicitly allows multiple attack action with a pistol though. So Page 140 seems to be at least not precise.

 

To my ear, Charmander's reading of pistol rules sounds about right.

 

Alex

[MILLANDSON 306]

ak-73 said:

MILLANDSON said:

 

Nope, there was no rule change. What he said was, to my knowledge, not what the rule is in the book.

 

 

 

Pistols can be used to make Standard Attacks (page 140). This implies no bursts, doesn't it? Page 246 explicitly allows multiple attack action with a pistol though. So Page 140 seems to be at least not precise.

 

To my ear, Charmander's reading of pistol rules sounds about right.

 

Alex

It's previously been stated in DH and RT that you can use a pistol in close-combat to carry out semi-auto and full-auto actions, however. There's no reason this would not carry over to Deathwatch.

[Siranui 2]

 If I were using a sidearm in close combat, I'd be pulling the darn trigger just as fast as I could...

I don't personally have a problem with semi/burst fire in melee or with it being based on BS. Basing on WS just seems to be a tax on Devs/Tacs. Especially seeing as the game is very melee-based.

[ak-73 248]

MILLANDSON said:

ak-73 said:

 

MILLANDSON said:

 

Nope, there was no rule change. What he said was, to my knowledge, not what the rule is in the book.

 

 

 

Pistols can be used to make Standard Attacks (page 140). This implies no bursts, doesn't it? Page 246 explicitly allows multiple attack action with a pistol though. So Page 140 seems to be at least not precise.

 

To my ear, Charmander's reading of pistol rules sounds about right.

 

Alex

 

 

It's previously been stated in DH and RT that you can use a pistol in close-combat to carry out semi-auto and full-auto actions, however. There's no reason this would not carry over to Deathwatch.

 

Except for page 140? As it is, RAW says that:

a) it can be used for standard attacks. This is unlike what the analogous section in RT says, I just checked.
b) apparently it can be used for multiple attacks action too.

 

Anyway, I'll be posting the rules question, just to be sure.

 

Alex

[chrismata 0]

good point.   I havent thought of that.  

 

 

Siranui said:

 If I were using a sidearm in close combat, I'd be pulling the darn trigger just as fast as I could...

I don't personally have a problem with semi/burst fire in melee or with it being based on BS. Basing on WS just seems to be a tax on Devs/Tacs. Especially seeing as the game is very melee-based.

[Charmander2 6]

ak-73 said:

Except for page 140? As it is, RAW says that:

a) it can be used for standard attacks. This is unlike what the analogous section in RT says, I just checked.
b) apparently it can be used for multiple attacks action too.

 

Anyway, I'll be posting the rules question, just to be sure.

 

Alex

Beat you to it, Ross told me that a standard attack by a pistol in melee is a single shot, and the rules regaring wielding two weapons and firing them on different fire settings (single versus semi versus full) was for ranged combat only. 

The part that was ambiguious was your previous question regarding if the pistol could be used in conjunction with a melee weapon (as in bolt pistol and chainsword).

And yes, as noted on another thread, this apepars to be a departure from DH and RT as in DH/RT is never mentions the 'standard attack in melee' bit, it just says you can use them (though I dislike it even more in DH than I do in DW, but either way I don't mind the change personally).

[ak-73 248]

Charmander said:

ak-73 said:

 

Except for page 140? As it is, RAW says that:

a) it can be used for standard attacks. This is unlike what the analogous section in RT says, I just checked.
b) apparently it can be used for multiple attacks action too.

 

Anyway, I'll be posting the rules question, just to be sure.

 

Alex

 

 

Beat you to it, Ross told me that a standard attack by a pistol in melee is a single shot, and the rules regaring wielding two weapons and firing them on different fire settings (single versus semi versus full) was for ranged combat only. 

The part that was ambiguious was your previous question regarding if the pistol could be used in conjunction with a melee weapon (as in bolt pistol and chainsword).

And yes, as noted on another thread, this apepars to be a departure from DH and RT as in DH/RT is never mentions the 'standard attack in melee' bit, it just says you can use them (though I dislike it even more in DH than I do in DW, but either way I don't mind the change personally).

 

Did you check out the errata thread though?

 

Alex

[Charmander2 6]

ak-73 said:

Did you check out the errata thread though?

 

Alex

I missed this:

> 2) If no, does that mean this is a DW-specific change or does that
> apply to all of 40k RP?

 

It applies to Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch.

I don't know why, but that makes me feel better, despite how many people it will irritate .

Personally I'll be sticking with swift/lightning only working with melee weapons, and that the pistol is just there as a bonus weapon for your 3rd/4th attack.  And you don't have to worry about handedness since your marine is ambidexterous.

[Adeptus-B 926]

chrismata said:

RAW it states you use BS to use a pistol in CC.   I was feeling it would more appropriate to use WS.  While locked into melee, it makes more sense that combat style would change.   Or possibly a penalty if you engage with someone with melee weapons and you have none. 

For what it's worth, in the 40K tabletop game (and it's spin-offs like Necromunda), you always use WS in melee, even if you are wielding pistols...

[chrismata 0]

 I never thought of that.  

 

can someone link to the errata thread?  

[ak-73 248]

chrismata said:

 I never thought of that.  

 

can someone link to the errata thread?  

 

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=179&efcid=3&efidt=424861

 

It's the top thread in the main DW forum here.

 

Alex

 

[Rakarth2 0]

chrismata said:

 

 RAW it states you use BS to use a pistol in CC.   I was feeling it would more appropriate to use WS.  While locked into melee, it makes more sense that combat style would change.   Or possibly a penalty if you engage with someone with melee weapons and you have none.  

Besides from parrying, It would make more sense damage wise to build a high BS character with some awesome talents and use 2 bolt pistols fire semi auto.

 do you think it would make melee weapons more attractive than the 2 pistol route?  

 

 

p140 Pistol weapons are fired one-handed and can be used to make a STANDARD Attack while engaged in melee.
Seeing as firing a Semi-auto Burst (p242) is not a Standard Attack (p242) this would obviously not classify as a Standard Attack.
In otherwords you can only ever fire a pistol single shot in melee.

I don't see a problem with BS use in melee. IMO unless the marine starts bashing the enemy with the weapon then BS is the appropriate stat to test against.
All this really allows is for a player to use the better of his two stats to apply in melee.

Also note that Talents like Swift Attack don't apply to Ranged Weapons such as Pistols, they apply to Melee Weapons.
Just because the special rules for pistols allow them to be used when engaged in melee does not reclassify them as melee weapons, they remain a ranged weapon and are not affected by rules that apply to melee weapons. The fact that you use BS highlights the fact that they are not Melee weapons.
If your players disagree ask them to find the listing for Bolt Pistol in the melee weapons table.

In addition it needs to be noted that the Marines have the Unarmed Master talent so they are never truely without weapons in melee. So penalising them would be unnecessarily harsh.

[chrismata 0]

noted and clarified.  

 

thanks!!!!

 

 

Rakarth said:

 

 

p140 Pistol weapons are fired one-handed and can be used to make a STANDARD Attack while engaged in melee.
Seeing as firing a Semi-auto Burst (p242) is not a Standard Attack (p242) this would obviously not classify as a Standard Attack.
In otherwords you can only ever fire a pistol single shot in melee.

I don't see a problem with BS use in melee. IMO unless the marine starts bashing the enemy with the weapon then BS is the appropriate stat to test against.
All this really allows is for a player to use the better of his two stats to apply in melee.

Also note that Talents like Swift Attack don't apply to Ranged Weapons such as Pistols, they apply to Melee Weapons.
Just because the special rules for pistols allow them to be used when engaged in melee does not reclassify them as melee weapons, they remain a ranged weapon and are not affected by rules that apply to melee weapons. The fact that you use BS highlights the fact that they are not Melee weapons.
If your players disagree ask them to find the listing for Bolt Pistol in the melee weapons table.

In addition it needs to be noted that the Marines have the Unarmed Master talent so they are never truely without weapons in melee. So penalising them would be unnecessarily harsh.