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JerusalemJones

The Ending theory

36 posts in this topic

I got into this discussion on Facebook with Gualdo (I believe, though I might eb wrong) about how he wants to see Jon Snow ont he Iron Throne at the end of the books. Here's what I wrote in reply, and I'm using it as a jumping baord for this discussion. Not sure if I'm on the right track here, but it seemed worth sharing.

 

I've always felt that if there is a Night's Watch at the end of the series, Jon will stay at the Wall. However, I've had a new thought today: we always look at the ending through the view of Westeros, and who will sit the Iron Throne. But GRRM is telling the story via three location: the Wall and beyond, Westeros, and the east (Dany). Let's look at the analogy of "the Dragon has three heads," and apply it the ending. The world has three locations (though large and vague), and will need three leaders. Stannis is trying to win Westeros, Jon is trying to save the realm at the Wall, and although Dany is looking to return to Westeros, she is currently leading locations in the East.

 

It is likely safe to say that at some point Dany will come west, and the great battle with the Others will take place. And we're all assuming that the Others lose (which I think is a safe assumption; if the series ends with the Others controlling the world, I think there will be a large number of GRRM haters out there). This reinvigorates the need for the Wall, and Jon stays there to help rebuild the Watch, and possibly rule the North (above and below the Wall). Dany, realizing that she is needed to rule not just in Westeros but in the East as well returns there to rule those states (who, lets face it, will also be threatened by the Others, and may partake in the Battle as well). This leaves Stannis to rule over Westeros (remember that Axel Florent saw Stannis sitting the Iron Throne in a fire vision, even if it was just imagined).

This is only the birth of an idea, but I am seeing a sort of neatness to this ending. And it's one I'm willing to discuss.

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I had a Very similar thought a few days ago, minus the Jon Snow bit.

I kind of assume that Dany will come over and join Stannis in an epic battle of uber awesome against the Others and then realise that Westeros is kind of Meh compared to Essos and all its wonders (especially after she establishes what is essentially a new Freehold on Essos) and leaves Westeros to Stannis thus proving the ever doubted but always correct fire-visions.

That said, I have this inexplicable, totally unfounded or unsupourted but non the less Mighty feeling that Dany dies. I dont know Where it comes from but am I the only one? She seems Very Deathbound to me, pardon the cheesy Lcg analogy.

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 My prediction is that everybody dies :P

Joking aside, clearly Jon Snow and Daenerys are important, being relatives and all (presumably). I don't think Jon will ever sit a throne of any kind. And I really have no prediction what'll happen with Stannis. Obviously he has a role to play in the war against the Others, but beyond that, I've no clue.

The one character's fate I care most about is Arya, but I suspect she will die tragically. But hopefully she'll get to kick some ass before she kicks the bucket.

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Saturnine said:

The one character's fate I care most about is Arya, but I suspect she will die tragically. But hopefully she'll get to kick some ass before she kicks the bucket.

Its funny how George has created this prevalent sense that Everyone will Die at some point, especially if you like them. If you think about it apart from Ned and Arys Oeakheart (excluding the prologues ofcourse) no POV character has died. Theon is in Dance and Catelyn is now Franken-Cat.

Arya IS fascinating to read though, I guess her role depends almost entirely on how big a time gap he leaves between books? With Arya the two most likely scenarios in my mind are either: 1. Big time gap, where Arya comes back as a trained assassin and makes evil people go away or 2. Small time gap and Arya doesnt spend much more time in the temple of the Faceless Men and sets forth on her own quest, possibly to subconsciously find Nymeria again since shes having more an more wolf dreams?

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DerBarchen said:

Its funny how George has created this prevalent sense that Everyone will Die at some point, especially if you like them. If you think about it apart from Ned and Arys Oeakheart (excluding the prologues ofcourse) no POV character has died. 

 

Heh, I hadn't thought about that, but you're right. Well, Catelyn really did die, though. And frankly, I'd have prefered if she'd stayed dead.

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Saturnine said:

Well, Catelyn really did die, though. And frankly, I'd have prefered if she'd stayed dead.

I cant help but get the feeling that Im the only one who likes Lady Stoneheart. Whats everyone's beef with her?

If you wana talk irritating characters go no further than Darkstar o.O

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DerBarchen said:

Saturnine said:

 

 

 

I cant help but get the feeling that Im the only one who likes Lady Stoneheart. Whats everyone's beef with her?

 

She always says things "too sharply" (seriously, this phrase has to appear a dozen times in the first book alone). Other than that, I don't know, I just don't enjoy her chapters. Something about her rubs me the wrong way. I'd have prefered a zombie Robb (Rob Zombie, haha) over a zombie Catelyn. :)

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Is Stannis really one of the Three Heads of the Dragon? I doubt it. Presuming (as I do) that Jon and Dany are related, they are surely two of the three, but where is the third coming from? I think you're probably putting too much emphasis on Ser Axel Florent's dream, as he surely could have just imagined it, rather than it actually being a prophecy, of sorts. A character we've not seen yet? Another Stark? Tyrion?

I agree that Dany seems very Deathbound, though, and that if there is a still Night's Watch by the end of the series, Jon will still be oathbound to it. Throw in the wolf dreams/warging from the various Stark children and we've got a great recipe for a climatic final battle, though something tells me that treachery, ambition and vengeance will have a part to play after the wars are won and lost, and we're unlikely to expect the final outcome.

In the shorter-term, I'm more interesting in quite what Littlefinger is up to. He appears to be positioning himself to take over half of Westeros, as ruler of Harrenhal, the Eyrie/Vale and Winterfell in one fell swoop. This may or may not end well, of course ;)

 

All we know is that Winter is Coming, and so is Fire and Blood. Can't wait.

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I don't really think too much about the ending in general or the 3 dragon riders in particular, although I do subscribe to the popular theory with regards to Jon.

Apparently one of the many theories floating about is that Tyrion is a Targaryen, given his fascination with dragons and the chronological possibility of Tywin's wife having willing or forced relations with a Targaryen, but I don't buy it. (Don't ask me for details on this, I've only heard about it).

Ultimately, I suspect that the dragons will play a big role in the war against the others, what with their vulnerability to fire and all, but someting will get in the way of Dany uniting the kingdoms again and ruling on the Iron Throne. I feel Westeros is likely to remain split into different kingdoms when the series is done. One also has to wonder if the dragons will be in Dany's control until the end at all, what with the Dragon Horn being "in play."

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Saturnine said:

Apparently one of the many theories floating about is that Tyrion is a Targaryen, given his fascination with dragons and the chronological possibility of Tywin's wife having willing or forced relations with a Targaryen, but I don't buy it. (Don't ask me for details on this, I've only heard about it).

Other than what you've stated already (he's drawn to dragons and the timing of his conception), the idea is developed by suggesting that once Mrs Lannister (I forget her name for the moment) was with child, they tried to abort the baby, but it didn't work and the complications not only produced a deformed child, but also killed the mother.

It sounds pretty out of whack to me, but stranger things have happened in this story already.


 

 

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Wasnt there some stuff about Joanna Lannister being raped by the king? I think I remember something along those lines.

I think everyone is overlooking Quentyn Martell o.O I mean, the martells havnt even come into play yet and George wouldnt set them up as he did in Feast to just have them be unimportant. Atleast I hope not =P

Also Victarion is around, theres a chance he could be one of the dragon heads. It seems that a civil war between Vicatrion and Euron would be likely if Dany fell for Victarion. Which isnt totally impossible since he's basically drogo with arm floats!

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DerBarchen said:

Which isnt totally impossible since he's basically drogo with arm floats!

Ahahaha! That made my day.

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I find it unlikely that Jon Snow will still be commander of the Watch at the end of the books.

 The fact that they mention explicitly that he is the 998th Lord Commander seems to obvious an element not to be deliberate- surely at some point in the books, we'll see the 1000th?

Whether it's because he's off ruling Westeros with Dany, ruling The North as Robb's heir (if one of the missing messangers has a message legitimising him, then his age would give him precedence over Bran, right? dead, or whatever else, I'm pretty sure something different will have happened to him from now.

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Mighty Jim said:

 The fact that they mention explicitly that he is the 998th Lord Commander seems to obvious an element not to be deliberate- surely at some point in the books, we'll see the 1000th?

I don't think the number 1000 has any significance for George with regard to the story he is telling, and if it is, he has given no indication.

I'd be surprised if Jon is not still part of the Night's Watch in the end (or at least until his end). Sure, he's almost deserted once, but I feel like he's accepted that he belongs there now.

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Saturnine said:

Mighty Jim said:

 

 The fact that they mention explicitly that he is the 998th Lord Commander seems to obvious an element not to be deliberate- surely at some point in the books, we'll see the 1000th?

 

 

I don't think the number 1000 has any significance for George with regard to the story he is telling, and if it is, he has given no indication.

It's so close to a milestone number that storytelling demands that Lord Commanders #999 and #1000 will appear at some point.

Either that, or GRRM is deliberately playing with the idea that 1000 is no more significant a number than any other.

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Why would the number have any significance to the story? I think it's silly to assume just because 998 is close to 1000 that the story is compelled to give us two more Lord Commanders. If Jon was #997, would we get three more? If he was #990, would we get 10? Will the 1000th Lord Commander be uber-special? Who'd be more special than Jon? Janos Slynt?

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Saturnine said:

Why would the number have any significance to the story?

Because it's a significant number, and because of the fact that every detail given in a story is important. Conservation of detail, and all that. Why is he the 998th Commander? Why not the 675th, 1093rd, or any other number?

My point is: Why even mention the exact number at all? It's either (a) to make 1000 important in some way (e.g. the last, greatest, etc., for whatever reason), or (b) in order to screw with us that 1000 is a significant number, but isn't in this story.

Not exactly Chekhov's Number, but close.

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I'm going with option B. That seems to be Martin's MO. Make us think something or someone is important, and then ignore it entirely or kill it.

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I can't find this anywhere, but I thought it was mentioned in one of the books that they think they are approaching the 1000th Commander but the number may not actually be correct?

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I have the feeling that Jon will stay Lord Comander atleast untill he gets to do something cool, Others wise. I just finished the 4th book and saw a pattern. Quentyn Martell brings Dany to Drone (Possible, since Dorne already suppourts her and she needs a foothold in Westeros from which to stage her invasion) then Sarella (Alleras, whatever) lets Dany know about the shennanigans thats going down at the wall through Samwell. Boom, Now Dany has a perfectaly good reason to go to the Wall.

Also, how mental would it be if Jon was the prince that was pormised?

On a totaly different note, does anyone remember that really old GRRM interview where they asked him about Rhaegar's kids and he was like "Rahaynes is dead. Ageon...well...no comment" What do we think of that? =P

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JerusalemJones said:

I still maintain that Aegon is Darkstar.

Wouldnt he be too old? Aegon is younger than Dany and shes only what? 18 by the end of Feast?

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I always envisioned the ending to be that the next generation from all parts of the world come together, united in peace,  and have taken the place of the people who were there when the books starts.

I could see for example Arya finishing the books as Master of Whisperers and Samwell as Grand Maester of Kings Landing etc. Perhaps Jon on the throne. Rickon as lord of Winterfell etc.

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DerBarchen said:

JerusalemJones said:

 

I still maintain that Aegon is Darkstar.

 

 

Wouldnt he be too old? Aegon is younger than Dany and shes only what? 18 by the end of Feast?

AEgon was a babe when the Lannister's sacked King's Landing. not sure of his exact age, but I'm thinking around 2. Dany was born after the sack, but before the taking of Dragonstone.

At the start of the books, it is 13 years after the rebellion. Dany is 13, Robb and Jon are 14. By the end of book 3, at least 2 years have passed. If Aegon was 2 at the time of the taking of KL, then it is easy to put Aegon at 18 years old, if he survives. Babes that young can be easily switched for protection.

This part gets muddy, but there are a few things that are possible based on some known facts.

Fact #1: The Targaryens tend to have platinum blonde/white hair and purple eyes. The Dayne's tend to favor the looks of the Targaryens. Darkstar has white/platinum hair and eyes so dark they appear to be purple. These are cosmetic, and somewhat weak to base a believe on by themselves.

Fact #2: Three of the Kingsguard are guarding the Tower of Joy at a time when, by all "known" facts, no member of the royal family is there, only Lyanna Stark. What can we make of this? Lots of things. Just starting with Lyanna, many of us (myself included) believe her to be Jon Snow's true mother, the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. If we assume that Rhaegar married Lyanna, then her child would have been a legitimate heir to the throne. This makes her and her (at the time) unborn son part of the royal family, and thus the Kingsguard would be duty bound to protect them. The same is also true if they brought baby Aegon with them to Dorne; there is no doubt that this is the true heir to the Iron Throne if Aerys II and Rhaegar die. And what better place to hide his heir than with the woman many believe to have been kidnapped against her will.

Fact #3. Doran Martell says "Darkstar...is the most dangerous man in Dorne." I belive this is an exact quote, including the pause. Yet when we are first introduced to Darkstar, he fails to kill a 13(?) year old girl before riding off into hiding. So he obviously isn't the greatest warrior in Dorne. Something else must make him dangerous. So,Doran either knows, or suspects, that Darkstar is Aegon Targaryen.

Fact #4: After the fight at the Tower of Joy, Eddard rides to Asahra Dayne, who shortly thereafter kills herself. Stories are that it is either over the loss of her brother Arthur, or by being spurned by Eddard. It is easy to assume that Eddard, having left the ToJ with two babes, chooses to have one represent his own bastard child (the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna) and gives one to Ashara for the Daynes to hide, sincebaby Aegon looks like a Dayne. Asahra takes the babe, goes into hiding (of some sort), and the stories are told of her suicide.

If Aegon is still alive, Darkstar is the likeliest candidate.

Now, there are holes in this theory (ktom and I have discussed this before). For example, if Darkstar is the true heir, why would Doran scheme to wed Viserys to Arianne in the belief that she would become queen of the Seven Kingdoms (his letter to Quentyn shows us this belief). It is possible that at the time Doran knew not of Darkstar's true identity, or else he would scheme to make Viserys the only known heir and keep Darkstar in hiding (Darkstar appears to have no idea that he could be someone else than he truly is). We know so little of Ashara Dayne, she very well might have killed herself. Then who would be hiding the young child.

Any possible clues about Aegon surviving and who/where he is are few and far between, and need to be conjectured. But I think it at least is possible.

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Aye I was just coming online to take back what I said about him being to young, my girlfriend schooled me at Thrones knowledge by pointing out that Dany was born after Ageon >.<

Thats actually a cool theory then! It would explain why Darkstar was included at all if you ask me, since his purpose so far has been basically non-existant. That said I think the argument that Doran wouldnt need Dany or Viserys then is a very strong one. Doran just wants the rightfull king on the throne and Ageon would have the best claim, easily.

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