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Max Wax

New FAQ

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COC LCG is a mess. The list of banned cards is expanding. Time to revise the team of the card designers!? And the most recent reprints of cards with errata are required for tournament play so you are forced to buy "the same" cards again. This is very annoying.

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I think you misunderstand the "Most Recent Printing" entry. It doesn't require that you possess the most recent print in order to be tournament legal. It simply states that the recent printings are the legal interpretation, and that older versions are meant to be interpreted as such regardless of their actual text. That's how I read it, anyhow. If FFG were to force existing players to update their collection in order to be legal ... that would be utterly outrageous. I don't think that's the case.

As for the bans, I agree with them. Hopefully the exclusion of Endless and Magah will open up the high level meta a little.

I don't consider three banned cards to be excessive, but maybe my standards are too low. gui%C3%B1o.gif I don't mind bannings in an LCG as much as I would in a CCG. At least with the LCG format you haven't invested time and money struggling to obtain bent cards which are then deemed illegal.

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Q: How does Yog-Sothoth Lord of Time and Space’s triggered ability which reads, “Action: Pay 2 to choose and play a Spell event card from your discard pile without paying its cost. Then, place that card on the bottom of your deck” interact with X cost Spell event cards in the owner’s discard pile ? Would Yog-Sothoth be able to pay 2 to choose a copy of Unspeakable Ressurection in the discard pile to bring a character of any cost into play from the discard pile?

A: "Yog-Sothoth interacts with X cost spell event cards in the discard pile by circumventing the cost of X being paid entirely. However, because the cost of X is not paid, X is defined as 0 for the purposes of card effects that reference it.
For example, if I use Yog-Sothoth’s triggered ability and pay 2 in order to play from my discard pile Unspeakable Ressurection (which costs X), which reads “Action: Choose a character in your discard pile with cost X or lower. Put that character into play.” I can only put into play a character that costs 0 because I circumvented paying the cost of the card."

 

Ah... vindication.  The taste is sweet.  cool.gif

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I'm glad they made the right decison in the end for Yog-Sothoth here. Cards are supposed to be able to trump rules but not like that.

Otherwise I'm not happy that the banned list was expanded. Magah Birds and Endless Interrogation did not need banning IMO.

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I thought it was a very good FAQ update. I agreed with all of the rulings, including the bannings. Three cards is not that bad; 3 out of 610 is about 0.5%. I can live with 1 out of every 200 cards they design ending up banned. Sure, in a perfect world you'd rather not see any, but I think it's good that they saw a problem and they addressed it.

I was also pleased with the clearly illustrated examples under the Frequently Asked Questions section.

 

All in all, I applaud FFG's effort.

 

 

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Hellfury said:

 

Ah... vindication.  The taste is sweet.  cool.gif

 

 

Ah, now you're being... vindictive. gran_risa.gif

It's weird that such nonsensical interpretation  would end up the the FAQ. But that's what we'll have to make do with.

I'm glad they made the right decison in the end for Yog-Sothoth here. Cards are supposed to be able to trump rules but not like that.

Otherwise I'm not happy that the banned list was expanded. Magah Birds and Endless Interrogation did not need banning IMO.

No rules where trumped in the process. As for Endless Interrogation, now that did some weird stuff within the rules, and with card memory, resulting in a ridiculous powerlevel.

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I like the decisions on dogs and birds and the helpful explanation of what happens when a non-character card goes insane (always a grey area in my mind.) Now if only the Mulligan rule was scrapped as well, I would be a truly happy camper....

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 Interesting. I haven't been able to play much lately, but I find it strange to put out a boxed expansion with a number of cards obviously geared towards controlling the problems in the environment, then ban the problem cards without taking any time to see if the answer cards shift the balance at all.  Seems impatient.

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Marius said:

It's weird that such nonsensical interpretation  would end up the the FAQ.

 

Yes, using words like 'nonsensical' really helps your high horse stance on what is vindictive. aplauso.gif

But since I am accused of being vindictive anyways, try this on for size:

In yo face, suckah!! Look into my eye!

a_001AlMatthews.jpg

lengua.gif

Did that just happen?

Yeah... that just happened.

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GREAT!  No complaints.  They even directly answered some questions I have been harassing them with.  Should I feel bad about my doubt or was advocacy part of the solution?  Who knows.  At any rate, great clarifications, bans, errata, and MRP. 

Now that Hastur is off the crutch cards I think we will see them as a strong faction in the direction more in line with their control flavor.

Time to begin breaking Syndicate+Silver Twilight...  gui%C3%B1o.gif

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I also have taken note of this inconsistency.

Pretty much par for the course at FFG. sorpresa.gif

Maybe we can get some fun games in at GenCon.

 

Kennon said:

 Interesting. I haven't been able to play much lately, but I find it strange to put out a boxed expansion with a number of cards obviously geared towards controlling the problems in the environment, then ban the problem cards without taking any time to see if the answer cards shift the balance at all.  Seems impatient.

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 Oh I would be up for fun games for certain! I think we're staying downtown this year, so that should actually make it easier to squeeze in some games since everyone in my hotel room won't have to stick together at all times like we have in the last couple years. 

Heck, I still hold out hope that Cthulhu Worlds might not overlap with one of the main AGoT events this year. I'd still love to be able to compete in both. 

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Max Wax said:

COC LCG is a mess. The list of banned cards is expanding. Time to revise the team of the card designers!? And the most recent reprints of cards with errata are required for tournament play so you are forced to buy "the same" cards again. This is very annoying.

Yay for reading comprehension!

Adding to the list of banned cards is not my favorite solution but it's better than doing nothing about problem cards. All in all the FAQ is very welcome.

With the update of the Alaskan Sledge Dog there's also no longer any obstacle to reprinting Mountains of Madness with three copies per card; that's a good thing. Although I wonder how three dogs are supposed to pull a sled - poor things! gui%C3%B1o.gif

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My problem with the Yog ruling is not about the actual ruling, but that it is not adressing the actual bigger problem, we don't have an actual formal description of X cost cards and their interaction with cost modifiers/waivers.

The "X is whatever you paid for it" definition in the FAQ is vague and imprecise, it means that X cost cards are simply not affected by cost modifiers, which is not bad per se, but it is a reversal from what the game usually have been treating them, we ccg players have been reducing X cost cards costs since... Arkham Edition. For example, by this interpretation, I could still drain a 1 Cthulhu resourced domain to Deep One Assault your 70 Steps even with a Dampen Light previously played.

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I welcome this rulings as well. They will do good to this game

Hellfury said:

Ah... vindication.  The taste is sweet.  cool.gif

I think if we have a discussion here about a rule is to help each other getting it right and playing it the right... and not to kill each other, like in the game.

So, I think you are starting to mix up the game with your real life.

Marius is doing a great job "stirring the pot" every week, and he's definitely allowed to make wrong personal interpretations like every one else here.

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EchPiEl said:

My problem with the Yog ruling is not about the actual ruling, but that it is not adressing the actual bigger problem, we don't have an actual formal description of X cost cards and their interaction with cost modifiers/waivers.

The "X is whatever you paid for it" definition in the FAQ is vague and imprecise, it means that X cost cards are simply not affected by cost modifiers, which is not bad per se, but it is a reversal from what the game usually have been treating them, we ccg players have been reducing X cost cards costs since... Arkham Edition. For example, by this interpretation, I could still drain a 1 Cthulhu resourced domain to Deep One Assault your 70 Steps even with a Dampen Light previously played.

Yeah. Well, appearantly this seems to go back and forth. To understand the rules you'll need to read it in a Schrödinger statistical way. It's in constant flux. Now that the FAQ functions as an Heisenberg Compensator, we know that at this point in time everyone will play Yog wrong. At least that is good knowledge to have, but it could reverse at any moment, or the interactions between DOA and Dampen should change to reflect the current state of the rules.

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I'm sorry I just don't understand the confusion...

@ X + modified cost -

How we interact with X hasn't changed. At all. If I want to use DOA to destory the seventy steps under the effect of Dampen Light I would need to pay 1 (printed cost) + 1(modifier) = 2 actual cost. X of DOA checks the printed cost not the total amount paid when under an modified number. This is what is explained by

"(v1.0) Paid, Overpaid, and Cost
The printed cost of a card is the cost that is printed on that card. The actual cost of a card or effect is the printed cost after any cost modifiers have been applied. The actual cost of a card is also the amount that is paid to play the card from a player’s hand, or to trigger an effect."

To clarify further, X is a printed cost. So when you go to play a card with a cost of X you first need to determine what you want to pay for the printed cost. After that is dertermined you then apply any modifiers. That number becomes the actual cost of the card (aka the amount you will need to drain). The card's effect X only checks to see what was paid for it's printed cost not the actual cost of the card. Its all rather technical and its easy to get it jumbled, but it works that way most people think it works.

The Yog-UR clarification changes nothing about this. Main difference being that you aren't paying for UR via Yog's ability. They are too seperate entities that can't be used to relate to one another when searching for a ruling on X+modifier.

@ Marius -

I don't suppose you read the thread in the rules discussion on this topic?

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

I believe that upon reading the thread you will change your mind.

For Yog-UR, as Yog is printed, the FAQ clarification is correct. Can it change? Most certainly, but not without an erratta to Yog.

@ Bannings & Nerfings -

Better banned than left alone. Even though I strongly dislike banned lists you'll see no complaint from me. Dogs going to 3x I guess justs makes things simplier. Having 8 +3 doppelgangers + your opponents cards was a bit much. Though, I still would've like to see what kind of impact the new and future cards had before this happened, but since they do know and tested the future I trust this judgement to make the move now. Suprised to see that the 70 steps was untouched. I believed it to be more of a problem than the Magah Birds. Very interesting.

 

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Tokhuah said:

Let's assume for the following question that Hastur based blitz is not longer a viable competitive option...

Is Steps a problem when used as a control card rather than a blitz card?

Did you reply to the wrong thead? :P

As a control card no, but as a blitz its still there. The number of pre-plays has been reduced and become a little awkward to play but options remain. It's follow up has been removed, but playing a whole bunch of guys with your opponent struggling with almost no regard to what they are playing is still a problem. In my opinion of course. Though who knows, I could be completely wrong and things will shape up differently as I'm merely making predictions based on what my steps to recovery would/will be.

It starts with step one being to see if I can salvage the deck type. Magah Birds out, Intruder From Beyond and/or Dreamlands Fanatic in. Dogs reduced supplment with doggleganger, replace with different cards, or see what happens at 3x. Endless Interrogation out, replace with removal, disruption, or bolster another part of the deck. Of course, this is all a part of testing and preparing, but leaving the steps untouched keeps this as a potentially problematic archtype.

On the other hand it could very well put it into its rightful balanced place as well. Regardless, while both styles can gain value, I suspect that it will shine far greater in a blitz style of deck than control.

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Magnus Arcanis said:

Did you reply to the wrong thead? :P

 

 

My thought process has been swallowed into the Shoes Vortex...

My thoughts are running in the direction that the current nerfs will sufficiently cut down on reliability of the deck to make it less desirable competitively.  Good point on the  trigger: play me free characters, especially if we see many more of them, because they could extend the viability of the deck.  I bet you can find something better than the Dogs at this point.  At the end of the day it is not a bad thing to have a version of this deck lingering in the tier 1 category as long as it does not cripple the viability of playing all other alternatives (as it did previously).

I just thought of something... If Hastur players still want fowl they can simply change their birds of choice to Giant Albino Penguins!  gran_risa.gif

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Archwraith666 said:

 Marius- you mean that everyone will be playing Yog right, right? I know that right and wrong are often confused so I am happy to help you out.. 

Let me elaborate: I think that some rulings in the FAQ are workable, yet less than optimal. I've already lived through so many errata and rules revisions in a variety of games that I can't view any ruling as definate anymore. They are relatively short term solutions, and they don't have to be perfect, as long as everyone is on the same page.

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I was surpised too with magah's ban and not 70 steps.

 

I think like magnus that it could still cause trouble in rush decks. But, well, we'll see in upcoming tournaments. I'm organising one the last week of january, I'll observe the results.

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I personally felt CoC LCG needed a little laundering.  I kinda have the same sentiments as Marius, the important thing is everyone is on the same page. errata and faq are the "tweak" on the rules, once you get past the printer.

 

but 18 pages?  My poor printer toner!sorpresa.gif   Make the next one just black and white please, its becoming an epic.

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