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Lord Dubu

LOLsy Black Shields Fluff

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I found this bit of fluff on Black Shields delightfully subtle:

"...the case of a Watch Commander named Israfil. This dour warrior led his forces against a myriad of foes for over three decades, before he was lost on a mission he attended in person, against the pernicious Mire. Despite the rapid intervention of a substantial battle group from the Dark Angels Chapter, Israfil's body was never recovered..."

I'm guessing Israfil's "body" is somewhere in the catacombs under The Rock.

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MILLANDSON said:

Or... they never found him.

I find "they found him and kidnapped him and lied about it" less interesting than "they searched for him, but didn't find his body... where did he go then?".

 

And yet, "Secrets and Lies" is the tagline of the Chapter.....:)

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Advocati said:

MILLANDSON said:

 

Or... they never found him.

I find "they found him and kidnapped him and lied about it" less interesting than "they searched for him, but didn't find his body... where did he go then?".

 

 

 

And yet, "Secrets and Lies" is the tagline of the Chapter.....:)

But then a Fallen who lasted that long working for the Imperium and rose to a prominant position wouldn't have lasted that long if he didn't have more tricks up his sleeve than the Dark Angels.

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 Conversation in the depths of The Rock:

 

"Confess your crimes! Free yourself of the chains of Chaos! CONFESS!"

"Well, I quit chaos a while back. I joined the Deathwatch and had faithfully been serving the Imperium for quite a while. I was doing ok too, until you dragged me off. Now, can you send me back to the Deathwatch please?"

"CONFESS YOUR HERESY!"

"Erm..."

 

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Blood Pact said:

Those Dark Angels certainly are.. umm... 'special', aren't they? >.>

 

Many Chapters are special little snowflakes, to be fair. It's not just the Dark Angels. 

So: How does the 'only the inner circle know' line work with the BA successor Chapters, then? Obviously they (or a few named ones at least) know about the Fallen. So that's contradictory, for a start...

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FistoImperialis said:

 The Dark Angels are actually going to be antagonists at one point for my game. It's going to be particularly interesting to see how far the Kill Team will go to protect their information/prisoner. 

 

I was thinking of running the same scenario at one point, but once the kill team has fought together and bled for each other for a while. And with a Dark Angel in the kill team it will make for an interesting scenario

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Siranui said:

So: How does the 'only the inner circle know' line work with the BA successor Chapters, then? Obviously they (or a few named ones at least) know about the Fallen. So that's contradictory, for a start...

(BA? Do you mean DA?) I think the grand masters of the DA successor chapters may well also be members of the inner circle of the Dark Angels. I seem to recall reading this somewhere.  Chapters like the Angels of Absolution have pretty close links to the DA, according to, for example, the Forge World Siege of Vraks books. 

Which is itself another reason why the Inquisition should have concerns about the Dark Angels. After recently finishing the Forgeworld Badab War books, it's clear that one of the major threats to the Imperium is Space Marine commanders getting too much support from other Chapters and then going renegade. 

Lufgt Huron managed to cause total havoc in the Imperium with the support of just three chapters (and his own illegally enlarged chapter.) Imagine how much trouble Grand Master Azrael of the Dark Angels could cause for the Imperium if he suddenly turned to chaos! He'd potentially drag all of the other "Unforgiven" with him...    

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Lightbringer said:

 

Imagine how much trouble Grand Master Azrael of the Dark Angels could cause for the Imperium if he suddenly turned to chaos! He'd potentially drag all of the other "Unforgiven" with him...    

 

 

 

Probably not.  There are chapters among the "Unforgiven" who do not have very close ties with their founding chapter; other than to expedite communications and dissemination of information.  I think they all police each other to some degree as well.

No, the chapter to be afraid of going "rogue" and causing merry hell with the Imperium would be the Ultramarines.  What's it, like nearly 50% of all chapters currently serving can trace their origins to Guilleman's Legion, and a good portion of those will just about anything to answer a call for aide from the master of Macragge.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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Yes: DAs.

 It has been stated in various sources that some successor Chapters are 'in the know', which makes the addage that only the DAs know a bit of a mockery, and serves as a reminder that it's clearly not true...

 

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The second founding DA successor chapters and DA are part of The Unforgiven, which all share the same organisation of the Inner Circle and all which it entails. Their inner circles are 'in the know' and hunt the fallen more or less together. So yes, not only DA knows, but their successor chapters from the 2nd founding too, which all were part of the orginal legion who knew about the fallen. Makes sense, right? So your presumption is unfounded.

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It says in the codex, that all Chapter Masters of the Unforgiven (that means all Dark Angels successors, not just 2nd founding) are part of the Inner Circle.  It also says that the Supreme Grand Master often holds conclaves and gatherings with the DA successors.  In the end, the Dark Angels are the only chapter that can still function as a Legion.  Remember, the Ultras and their successors all play by the codex, which means, each chapter is individual and doesn't answer to the Ultramarines chapter master.  If Calgar decides to go rogue, it'd suck bad cause that means he'd drag half of that segmentum with him into chaos (not neccessarily half of the Imperium's Chapters, remember, the codex says, divided so no one person can do that, that's 3/4s of the reason FOR the Codex Astartes).

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BrotherHostower said:

It says in the codex, that all Chapter Masters of the Unforgiven (that means all Dark Angels successors, not just 2nd founding) are part of the Inner Circle.  It also says that the Supreme Grand Master often holds conclaves and gatherings with the DA successors.  In the end, the Dark Angels are the only chapter that can still function as a Legion.  Remember, the Ultras and their successors all play by the codex, which means, each chapter is individual and doesn't answer to the Ultramarines chapter master.  If Calgar decides to go rogue, it'd suck bad cause that means he'd drag half of that segmentum with him into chaos (not neccessarily half of the Imperium's Chapters, remember, the codex says, divided so no one person can do that, that's 3/4s of the reason FOR the Codex Astartes).

 

However when the Ultramarines normally go to war, other chapters (even non-successor chapters) join their cause. Their working relationship with other largely codex-adherent chapters is excellent. So if Calgar can convince the Imperial Fists to join his cause, the High Lords of Terra will be in disarray. There'll be lots of wailling and teeth-gnashing.

 

Alex

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This is true...but the whole point of the Codex Astartes is to ensure that Chapters remain genuinely independent from one another. Following the letter of the Codex is one thing, following the spirit is another.

The Ultramarines no doubt remain immensly influential amongst the Astartes, and indeed are probably widely admired and honoured, but that doesn't mean that Codex Chapters would slavishly follow them anywhere automatically. Codex chapters are analagous to sovereign states. It's a bit like the US/UK relationship: the US historically bears certain similarities to the UK, which in some ways (I accept this is debateable, but bear with me) could be rooted in the shared history of the two countries. But although the UK is the older state, and the US has many of its roots there, does this mean that the US will follow the UK when it goes to war? Of course not - look at the Falklands war. Tacit support, supply of certain weapons systems, yes. Actual military aid? No.

If the Ultramarines went off on some mad frolic of their own, they'd bring over a few Chapters, but not for long. Look at Badab: The war lasted around 11 years, and by the end of it the three Chapters supporting the Tyrant had either been decimated militarily or realised his real agenda and surrendered to the loyalists.

The Dark Angels ostensibly follow the Codex to a degree, but they don't follow its spirit. Through their incredibly close inks to their successor chapters, maintained through layers of secrecy, they effectively remain a (smaller, degraded) Heresy-era Legion. Arguably their division into chapters was simply a political ruse to continue with their divisive hidden agenda. If they went rogue, they'd bring a solid chunk of fanatically loyal successors with them...permanently.   

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Sure but do you think that Calgar couldn't forge a Coalition willing if he wanted to? The greatest Ultramarine since the Primarch himself? If he would make a good pitch, a lot of chapters would follow. And the Badab war would look like children playing if he did.

 

Alex

 

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I absolutely agree with you. But what I'm saying is that the very structure of the Codex chapters is designed to mitigate against this happening.

The Dark Angels seem to regard the Codex as a mask to hide behind, and merely pay it lip service. Their secretive command structure, more like a mystery cult than a true military command, if penetrated by a figure like the Tyrant of Badab, could ultimately be just as damaging as the successor chapters wouldn't eventually give up on the lead chapter's lunatic cause, because they're fanatics.  

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