2x Valar + Save & return to hand: Does the character live?

[Twn2dn 1]

OK, so we have a situation where a card (let's say Viserys) was in play and two Valars were played. Does the first save effect work? Let's say, hypothetically, that Viserys cannot save himself twice. Would the first save effect kick in, or do both the plot effects (Valar) happen before the first save can be initiated, thus killing the character before he returns to hand?

I'm just trying to figure out the timing on this. I know you've discussed it here http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efpag=1&efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=350378, but I don't really understand that discussion

Separately, when does Retreat work? I assume it would happen after everything else (in other words, after all the other saves).

 

[eloooooooi 0]

Well, Viserys is quite different from any other character in this case. That's because his ability sends him to your hand before the second Valar can kill him:

 

1. First Valar affects the game: all characters die. Now you can save them if you want to. If you save a "normal character" it stays on the board and will be affected by the second Valar. However, Viserys Targaryen's effects saves him and sends him to your hand, which will set on him a Moribund:hand condition. Moribund characters cannot leave play for any other reason so he will ultimately return to your hand.

2. Second Valar kicks in: all characters die. All characters killed during the previous Valar's resolution are Moribung:dead_pile and cannot leave play for any other reason. Viserys Targaryen is Moribund:hand and cannot leave play for any other reason. Any other character that's not Moribund right now, generally everyone who was saved during Valar number 1, will die due to the second Valar and become Moribund:dead_pile unless you use a second save on them.

Note: Retreat can be used on a character who died as a replacement effect. It changes the destination of the card from Moribund:dead_pile to Moribund:hand. Remember that you are not saving the character because Retreat's text doesn't say anything about "saving" a character, so you can still use effects of the "after a character is killed" kind in addition to Retreat. I don't really know when you have to play it but since it's a replacement effect I would say it acts before the second Valar resolves. (Am I right on this?)

 

Let's see if I got everything right ^__^

[Rogue30 60]

eloooooooi said:

I don't really know when you have to play it but since it's a replacement effect I would say it acts before the second Valar resolves.

As you said, it's not save response, so you play it as normal in step 5: responses (after both Valars resolved), just like any other response "after character is killed".

[eloooooooi 0]

 Yeah, that was my first guess. However, since it's a replacement effect I think it kicks in in the middle of the framework event because that's what it modifies. Of course I may be wrong.

[Rogue30 60]

eloooooooi said:

However, since it's a replacement effect I think it kicks in in the middle of the framework event because that's what it modifies.

It's normal response. You was probably thinking about constant replacement effects like Darkstar. Only save and cancel responses can be played "immediately".

[ktom 598]

Twn2dn: The important thing to remember is that each Valar is a separate and individual passive effect. This ends up meaning a couple of things:

• Each must be initiated and resolved separately
• When effect #1 resolves, any characters it kills are already moribund when effect #2 initiates
• (As other have said) Anything moribund from effect #1 are out of reach of effect #2
• Since there are two separate kill effects, a character must be saved from each effect separately
• You will not run afoul of the "1 Response per trigger" rule for these saves because they are seaprate triggers
• Since they are passive effects, no Responses - other than save/cancel - can be played between the two

 

 

Rogue30 said:

It's normal response. You was probably thinking about constant replacement effects like Darkstar. Only save and cancel responses can be played "immediately".

Rogue is correct. Retreat is not technically a replacement effect. It is a standard Response that changes the moribund state of a card (after it has become moribund in the first place).

 

A replacement effect changes the way an effect resolves as it resolves. Because this is triggered after the original effect has completely resolves, it is technically not a replacement effect. True replacement effects have to be passive/constant, pretty much by definition.

[eloooooooi 0]

That's right. I had in mind Melisandre's (Defenders) effect but it clearly is not the same.

[ktom 598]

eloooooooi said:

That's right. I had in mind Melisandre's (Defenders) effect but it clearly is not the same.

Mel's ability isn't a replacement effect, either. It is a passive effect that initiates when you win Dominance or an unopposed challenge. It's worded a little differently, but it is a standard passive ability.

Storm's End (Kings of the Storm) is a replacement effect. When X happens, it has you do Y instead.

[eloooooooi 0]

You're right, I don't really know what I had in mind. I saw the word "instead" and got confused. Thanks for clearing that up.

[ktom 598]

eloooooooi said:

I saw the word "instead" and got confused.

Yeah, that is the tough part about Retreat. The word "instead" is in every replacement effect, so it's an easy mistake to make.

[Twn2dn 1]

Thanks guys, this is very helpful!