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Gregorius21778

[RANT] FFG, you are INSANE [BoM "Service Costs" for Confessions]

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Dear FFG, Dear Fellow Players,

I think nobody of the FFG-staff ever seems to pay any attention to the "income" of people in the game world when setting prices. First, I supposed this to be an old Black-Industrie-Issue. But now I think it is not

On p. 126 of the "Blood of Martyr", we have price lists for which the clerics of the cult perform things like giving a blessing on or taking a confession.

By RAW established by BoM, after a confession 75 thrones are charged.

Full stop.

This would, of course, wonderfully explain while everyone in the Imperium is **** poor. A regular worker will spend all of his surplus every two month to confess. Ha ha. Oh so very funny.


Yes, confessions has a very high ingame benefit for player characters (reduction of the next Insanity points by 1). But in game world terms, I say that this price is completly beyound any scope of reason.


 

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The only RPG where incomes were in reasonable proportions to the prices (especially at the lowest of low levels) that I can know of was Call of Cthulhu, and that was based on our world, so the prices were just copied verbatim. I don't think this issue will ever be solved.

You would think it'd be possible (not easy, but laborious) to extrapolate what the correct prices and their ratios should be - but then the issue of game balance comes in.

Personally, I'd ditch game balance, because I was never big on number crunching, stat-hunting, combo-devising.

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Gregorius21778 said:

Dear FFG, Dear Fellow Players,

I think nobody of the FFG-staff ever seems to pay any attention to the "income" of people in the game world when setting prices. First, I supposed this to be an old Black-Industrie-Issue. But now I think it is not

On p. 126 of the "Blood of Martyr", we have price lists for which the clerics of the cult perform things like giving a blessing on or taking a confession.

By RAW established by BoM, after a confession 75 thrones are charged.

Full stop.

This would, of course, wonderfully explain while everyone in the Imperium is **** poor. A regular worker will spend all of his surplus every two month to confess. Ha ha. Oh so very funny.


Yes, confessions has a very high ingame benefit for player characters (reduction of the next Insanity points by 1). But in game world terms, I say that this price is completly beyound any scope of reason. 

 

Which begs the question whether a worker who needs to confess every two months might not be better off getting executed. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Or in other words: you better don't be a sinner to begin with.

 

Alex

 

 

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p.118:  Sanctified Chain Coat vs. Shield Robes

The Sanctified Chain Coat (quote) "features prayers engraved into each individual ring". And some extra treatments with holy oils, sands, blessings and such. It retains it´s full AP against psychic powers, Warp Weapons etc.   It costs 750 thrones and is rare. Nothing but common sense says it is primitive.

Shield Robes and the (so it seems) standard armor of many clerics. Ultra-Light mesh (2kg) with a protection of 3 AP.  It costs 5.000 Thrones and is very rare

Yes, these look like robes. Yes, they are very priesty and stuff. But hey.... 5.000 a piece? 

 

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 I think this makes a LOT of sense. Seriously, how else do you explain the income of a Cleric?

When you really think about it, this is a service of an actual Cleric, not some lay preacher. This is the full deal that comes with benefits. It's likely that this is well beyond a normal Imperial citizen. It's likely more akin to paying for indulgences in the real world church.

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I'm with Shatter here. The 75 throne confession is going to be more than a brief chat. It's the sort of thing privileged nobles and high ranking members of various Adeptus go in for, not the masses. They'll just get low rank flunkies who listen to confessions, mutter a line and pass their report up the chain.

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Snidesworth said:

I'm with Shatter here. The 75 throne confession is going to be more than a brief chat. It's the sort of thing privileged nobles and high ranking members of various Adeptus go in for, not the masses. They'll just get low rank flunkies who listen to confessions, mutter a line and pass their report up the chain.

Pretty much. The 75 throne confession is essentially "indulgence", as it was back in the past of the Catholic Church. You pay some money to the Church, you get forgiven of all your sins, regardless of what they are.

It's definitely not something done for commoners, only the rich and powerful.

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As usual a clear mistake is attempted to be excused with a very shakey in-game reason, rather than simply admitted as an error and then fixed.

Why would only nobility be expected to confess their sins? That makes no sense at all. 

It's possible nobles get more theatrics for their buck than a commoner, and thus pay more, but I don't believe there's any mention the ludicrous price quoted by the OP from the book is a noble's only price. I would guess and suggest a price that is perhaps a tenth of a months salary (or less) would cover a confession - with more bells and whistles depending on the class and cost of each. If the Ecclesiarchy make the price so high commoners couldn't ever afford to confess, even if they wanted to, they'd be cutting their own throats financially ... as put simply there are billions more commoners than there are nobles, so even if commoners pay a hundredth less than the nobles (for the sake of argument) the Ministorum still earns more off of the confessions of the massed rank and file.

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 Adam said: As usual a clear mistake is attempted to be excused with a very shakey in-game reason, rather than simply admitted as an error and then fixed.

I don't believe anyone responding above is an actual employee, just helpful fans.

I haven't read the book, but as others suggest it doesn't sound unreasonable to assume the confession/blessing cost is for higher level clerics to perform with an in-game benefit to the recipient. A commoner can likely get a no-in-game-effect blessing from a lower ranking cleric for much cheaper. Or, if that double standard bothers you, then just remember life is hard in the Imperium. Suck it up peasant scum.

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deinol said:

 Adam said: As usual a clear mistake is attempted to be excused with a very shakey in-game reason, rather than simply admitted as an error and then fixed.

I don't believe anyone responding above is an actual employee, just helpful fans.

I haven't read the book, but as others suggest it doesn't sound unreasonable to assume the confession/blessing cost is for higher level clerics to perform with an in-game benefit to the recipient. A commoner can likely get a no-in-game-effect blessing from a lower ranking cleric for much cheaper. Or, if that double standard bothers you, then just remember life is hard in the Imperium. Suck it up peasant scum.

We're not talking about D&D here, where Clerics cast spells and an immediate and obvious effect is to be seen as a result - the Ecclesiarchy is a functioning religion that almost never is able to produce hard quantifiable evidence of it's essential truths. (Arguably leaving aside the Astronomican and the very rare saints etc.)

The rite of confession is apparently an essential part of that religion. For all it's members. That it might fortify the mind a bit is fine as a in-game effect - but people in the setting aren't able to see they took one less point of san loss. That's just a reflection of the psychological effect of having confessed and being more at ease mentally because of that. 

Bottom line, everyone is meant to confess, the cost for confession is not specified as a noble's only price. As the OP stated it's a flat rate ... ie the same for everyone. However, the rate given is clearly wrong. It's too high. It would mean anyone short of a rich merchant couldn't afford to confess. It's clearly a mistake.

Sorry but I've said it before, there is no error so glaringly obvious that FFG can make which won't still have people immediately here posting about how it's not in fact an error and coming up with convoluted reasons in-setting about why it's not an error. It happens every single time errors are found. 'Helpful fans' are not actually being helpful imo unless they can accept FFG makes mistakes and can admit that when it happens. Otherwise things that are clearly mistakes are pushed into the setting itself confusing and damaging it. FFG should fricking well respond more on their own boards in these kind of instances, like other companies routinely do, and post a quick adjustment imo. 

 

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There is an in game effect with this confession. It reduces the next the next insanity point suffering by 1. This is not just a standard walk into a booth and say your sorry for stealing a milky way bar. This is an elaborate ceremony, probably with a higher ranking clergy member and lats of incense burnt as well as other religious icons used.

Id say a basic confession was much cheaper, say 1 throne if that, but a true, spill your guts and be saved confession is what this is covering in BOM.

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Adam France said:

Sorry but I've said it before, there is no error so glaringly obvious that FFG can make which won't still have people immediately here posting about how it's not in fact an error and coming up with convoluted reasons in-setting about why it's not an error. It happens every single time errors are found. 'Helpful fans' are not actually being helpful imo unless they can accept FFG makes mistakes and can admit that when it happens. Otherwise things that are clearly mistakes are pushed into the setting itself confusing and damaging it.  FFG should fricking well respond more on their own boards in these kind of instances, like other companies routinely do, and post a quick adjustment imo.

 

 

 

 

I generally agree, though to be fair it's not an FFG-only phenomena. I've seen it in almost rpg or gaming community I've been involved in... game apologists who argue vociferously that the texts of their gaming books is akin to holy-writ handed down by game designers who are wiser, more learned and better qualified than we their readers. Whatever they have published must be right, true, accurate and the only proper way to play. This is why, in gaming, I loath three particular letters... RAW.

On one thing, however, I must disagree with you. Unless a gaming company has a dedicated indiviual whose job it is to monitor and respond to the forums (and really don't you think only a  very large and secure company could afford to hire such a person), I would much rather that the game designers got on with the business of game designing... and maybe do a better catching this rules problems, setting inconsistancies and the like.

Ultimately, however, the game is yours to play and the contents of the rulebook little more than suggestions of how to play it. If you feel that 75 thrones is too high a price for confession, lower it.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

There is an in game effect with this confession. It reduces the next the next insanity point suffering by 1. This is not just a standard walk into a booth and say your sorry for stealing a milky way bar. This is an elaborate ceremony, probably with a higher ranking clergy member and lats of incense burnt as well as other religious icons used.

Id say a basic confession was much cheaper, say 1 throne if that, but a true, spill your guts and be saved confession is what this is covering in BOM.

Not yet having the book, I'm curious... does Blood of Martyrs actually say that?

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MILLANDSON said:

 

Snidesworth said:

 

I'm with Shatter here. The 75 throne confession is going to be more than a brief chat. It's the sort of thing privileged nobles and high ranking members of various Adeptus go in for, not the masses. They'll just get low rank flunkies who listen to confessions, mutter a line and pass their report up the chain.

 

 

Pretty much. The 75 throne confession is essentially "indulgence", as it was back in the past of the Catholic Church. You pay some money to the Church, you get forgiven of all your sins, regardless of what they are.

It's definitely not something done for commoners, only the rich and powerful.

 

 

 

Hi Milly, i'll use yours to respond to.  :¬D

 

Wait...

So...

A heretic can get out of Ecclesiastical censure simply by dropping a few thrones into the donation box?

So what's all the fuss about?

 

For me the 75Thr cost is less of an issue than;

1.  What constitutes 'sin' that you'd be paying off with such an indulgence?

2.  Why does confessing these sins (whatever they are) and coughing up a bit of cash prevent the future accrual of Insanity?

 

 

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Peacekeeper_b said:

There is an in game effect with this confession. It reduces the next the next insanity point suffering by 1. This is not just a standard walk into a booth and say your sorry for stealing a milky way bar. This is an elaborate ceremony, probably with a higher ranking clergy member and lats of incense burnt as well as other religious icons used.

Id say a basic confession was much cheaper, say 1 throne if that, but a true, spill your guts and be saved confession is what this is covering in BOM.

Hi Peacekeeper (and all the others, of course)

if this is all this very special, why is it an easy(+30) check? To me, this does not sound like something very special but like something rather common. It is labeled "Scarce", right. But the description of it does not come across as something that "non-mundane" either. And there is no restrictions that it has to be a high-ranking cleric like in the "Sanctify a weapon" service (demands Rank 6 cleric). So, a lay-member can do such as thing.

It does have a gaming effect, for sure. Otherwise, there would be no need to list it at all (like all this extra-ordinary éxpensive foodstuff in IH that did not came with any effect...). And one I like, because it is rather mundane. But that is exactly the point where I say that 75 thrones is much to much.

Even if one is to say that this service is only for the high and mighty nobles AND it is about the special effect...  about 1/6 of your monthly noble income? And what for? The standard noble is not being threatend by Insanity points quiet often, or is s/he?

 

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Gregorius21778 said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

There is an in game effect with this confession. It reduces the next the next insanity point suffering by 1. This is not just a standard walk into a booth and say your sorry for stealing a milky way bar. This is an elaborate ceremony, probably with a higher ranking clergy member and lats of incense burnt as well as other religious icons used.

Id say a basic confession was much cheaper, say 1 throne if that, but a true, spill your guts and be saved confession is what this is covering in BOM.

 

 

Hi Peacekeeper (and all the others, of course)

if this is all this very special, why is it an easy(+30) check? To me, this does not sound like something very special but like something rather common. It is labeled "Scarce", right. But the description of it does not come across as something that "non-mundane" either. And there is no restrictions that it has to be a high-ranking cleric like in the "Sanctify a weapon" service (demands Rank 6 cleric). So, a lay-member can do such as thing.

It does have a gaming effect, for sure. Otherwise, there would be no need to list it at all (like all this extra-ordinary éxpensive foodstuff in IH that did not came with any effect...). And one I like, because it is rather mundane. But that is exactly the point where I say that 75 thrones is much to much.

Even if one is to say that this service is only for the high and mighty nobles AND it is about the special effect...  about 1/6 of your monthly noble income? And what for? The standard noble is not being threatend by Insanity points quiet often, or is s/he?

 

 

Why do real world catholics to church for confession? I don't see any special effects for them either.

I still don't know how many people in 40K really confess regularly and what. Call me someone who has played too much Paranoia but a person who confesses too much/too often might be branded a trai... err, heretic, depending on the cleric involved. This isn't nice, modern day catholicism after all.

 

Anyway, the whole thing sounds a bit gamey, I'll grant you that. More like old-school AD&D. But it's okay, I'm fine with it.

 

Alex

 

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Gregorius21778 said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

There is an in game effect with this confession. It reduces the next the next insanity point suffering by 1. This is not just a standard walk into a booth and say your sorry for stealing a milky way bar. This is an elaborate ceremony, probably with a higher ranking clergy member and lats of incense burnt as well as other religious icons used.

Id say a basic confession was much cheaper, say 1 throne if that, but a true, spill your guts and be saved confession is what this is covering in BOM.

 

 

Hi Peacekeeper (and all the others, of course)

if this is all this very special, why is it an easy(+30) check? To me, this does not sound like something very special but like something rather common. It is labeled "Scarce", right. But the description of it does not come across as something that "non-mundane" either. And there is no restrictions that it has to be a high-ranking cleric like in the "Sanctify a weapon" service (demands Rank 6 cleric). So, a lay-member can do such as thing.

It does have a gaming effect, for sure. Otherwise, there would be no need to list it at all (like all this extra-ordinary éxpensive foodstuff in IH that did not came with any effect...). And one I like, because it is rather mundane. But that is exactly the point where I say that 75 thrones is much to much.

Even if one is to say that this service is only for the high and mighty nobles AND it is about the special effect...  about 1/6 of your monthly noble income? And what for? The standard noble is not being threatend by Insanity points quiet often, or is s/he?

 

Could be a easy check because of equipment and time the clergy uses. A Ordinary check is +10, so all a +30 would be is two more steps up, which could be detailed instructions ( a hymnal, a religious tome) and taking your time to do it right (not rushed, its not in a fire fight and the priest would have time to redo things he slighlty messed up) and then of course he probably has help (lower ranking clerics, altar boys, the individual doing the confession) so the modifier is easy to get and quick to explain IMHO.

And its only scarce because you prpbably need a certain ranked member of the clergy.

Again, a normal everyday confession would be common, cost little (1d5 thrones at most) and have no in game effect.

Personally Id rather the Confession allow the PC to spend 50 XP to buy off 1 Insanity point instead of reduce the next set of gained IP by 1. Something similar, like a blessing, I would allow to add a +10 bonus to some sort of fear save or something.

And yeah, its a bit gamist and similar to D&D stuff from AD&D 2E, but in the end, it is a game, it does make sense, and I like it.

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Luddite said:

Hi Milly, i'll use yours to respond to.  :¬D

 

Wait...

So...

A heretic can get out of Ecclesiastical censure simply by dropping a few thrones into the donation box?

So what's all the fuss about?

 

For me the 75Thr cost is less of an issue than;

1.  What constitutes 'sin' that you'd be paying off with such an indulgence?

2.  Why does confessing these sins (whatever they are) and coughing up a bit of cash prevent the future accrual of Insanity?

To save a little time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

Basically, indulgence was paid to the Church in order for someone to get out of having to perform penance in order to be absolved. It could be any sin really, though for the nobility I'd imagine stuff like murder, blackmail, fraud, anything like that that they got caught doing or decided to confess themselves. It was partially also in order for the priest to keep their mouth shut, since confession, at the time, was required, and you didn't want to be lying in front of God's representative.

As for Adam's complaints... frankly, you're never going to be happy with anything FFG do, so I'm not sure why they should bother trying anymore. I'm certainly not, since you'll just find something to complain about regardless.

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MILLANDSON said:

 

As for Adam's complaints... frankly, you're never going to be happy with anything FFG do, so I'm not sure why they should bother trying anymore. I'm certainly not, since you'll just find something to complain about regardless.

 

 

 

Personally I enjoy more the input of people who are highly critical than that of those who are not. It doesn't mean that I have to necessarily make any corrections (one has to know how the criticism relates to your own vision of the game, for example) but if offers the chance for correction.

In that sense I don't understand your frustration - in the end all it comes down to personal taste, period. Yes, it does. If he doesn't like it and you do, that's about it.

If there is plenty of people who don't like your work, ask yourself if they have a point and if yes, change it. If not, try to win people over to your vision in order to stay in business. If you think there is only few people who don't like your work, try to see if they have a point you can agree with or didn't see before. If you think they do, make the necessary changes. If you think they don't, carry on.

You can't please everyone and it's foolish to even try. Please yourself first and try to sell that to your customers.

Adam could criticize my custom Crimson Fists rules (for example) as much as he wanted, it's no reason to get frustrated for me. Either he has a point or he doesn't share my vision. It's all good in either case, relax. happy.gif

 

Alex

 

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 I'm not an apologist for FFG. There are things I think are mistakes, like Righteous Fury rules in RT/DW. There are design decisions I disagree with, like "astartes" bolter damage. I'm just also realistic. FFG doesn't have an active presence on these boards. FFG is very slow to make errata. So all we are left with is fans trying to figure out how to fit things into their games. I myself have no problem with full confessional service being rare or nearly unavailable to lowly citizens. If you want to make them more common feel free to lower the price. 

Myself I would probably go with a common confessional which has no specific in-game benefit costing 5 thrones and taking about 5 minutes in game. The full confessional for 75 thrones would be a half hour ceremony with chanting, prayer, incense, and whatever other ritual trappings are required.

But seriously, of errors FFG needs to "FIX RIGHT NOW BARGLE", this one seems low on the list because how many games will it actually affect? As a long time player of 40k games, I'm used to the background being changed frequently at the whims of GW. I stick to older fluff if I like it better. Make your game how you want it.

Speaking of which, I have some Squat house rules to go work on...

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MILLANDSON said:

Basically, indulgence was paid to the Church in order for someone to get out of having to perform penance in order to be absolved. It could be any sin really, though for the nobility I'd imagine stuff like murder, blackmail, fraud, anything like that that

Thanks for the link Milly...i was aware of the ndulgence system and indeed its use in the growth of the secular power of the Catholic church - an interesting parallel for the Ministorum perhaps.

However, its the definition of sin we've still yet to see, that seriously compromises roleplaying within 40k.

You for example say murder is a sin in 40k.  is it?  Why?  Surely in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war and twhere you are one amongst countless trillions and will not be missed etc., why is killing and indeed murder a SIN?

Why is blackmail a sin?

Fraud a sin?

'Anything like that...'?  What's that then?

 

75Thr gets your sins absolved, yet there's no information at all about what they might be...and in addition this financial expenditure stops you going insane in future...i'm seeing a very odd rule here that seems to make no sense, nor support roleplaying logic.

Wierd.

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Luddite said:

MILLANDSON said:

 

Basically, indulgence was paid to the Church in order for someone to get out of having to perform penance in order to be absolved. It could be any sin really, though for the nobility I'd imagine stuff like murder, blackmail, fraud, anything like that that

 

 

Thanks for the link Milly...i was aware of the ndulgence system and indeed its use in the growth of the secular power of the Catholic church - an interesting parallel for the Ministorum perhaps.

However, its the definition of sin we've still yet to see, that seriously compromises roleplaying within 40k.

You for example say murder is a sin in 40k.  is it?  Why?  Surely in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war and twhere you are one amongst countless trillions and will not be missed etc., why is killing and indeed murder a SIN?

Why is blackmail a sin?

Fraud a sin?

'Anything like that...'?  What's that then?

 

75Thr gets your sins absolved, yet there's no information at all about what they might be...and in addition this financial expenditure stops you going insane in future...i'm seeing a very odd rule here that seems to make no sense, nor support roleplaying logic.

Wierd.

Well we know the basic sins of course: Unsanctioned psyker power use (witchcraft/sorcery), contact with xenos, exposure to chaos, worshipping other gods, abuse of the human form (alteration of, tampering with, mixing with xenos, mutations) would all be of the major sin category.

Disobeying the Ministorum/Ecclesiarchy would most likely be a sin. As far as murder, lying and stealing, I suppose those would be sins based upon who did the crime, who was the victim and how did it impact the Imperium/Ecclessiarchy? Obviously Joe Rich killing Howard the Bum out of sheetr boredom is largely OK unless the crime itself was in part with Xenos/Chaos/Witchcraft practices. It may be organized crime, jealousy or Spyre boredom.

So I would go with the following as Commandments for the general cult of the God Emperor of Mankind.

Suffer Not the Alien to Live

Suffer Not the Witch to Live

Suffer Not the Heretic to Live

Honor the Form of Man, For it is the Form of the God Emperor

Obey the Imperium, For it is the Way of the God Emperor

Heed to the Clergy, For They are the Voice of the God Emperor

Give Your Life, For it Belongs to the God Emperor

 

 

 

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Luddite said:

MILLANDSON said:

 

Basically, indulgence was paid to the Church in order for someone to get out of having to perform penance in order to be absolved. It could be any sin really, though for the nobility I'd imagine stuff like murder, blackmail, fraud, anything like that that

 

 

Thanks for the link Milly...i was aware of the ndulgence system and indeed its use in the growth of the secular power of the Catholic church - an interesting parallel for the Ministorum perhaps.

However, its the definition of sin we've still yet to see, that seriously compromises roleplaying within 40k.

You for example say murder is a sin in 40k.  is it?  Why?  Surely in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war and twhere you are one amongst countless trillions and will not be missed etc., why is killing and indeed murder a SIN?

Why is blackmail a sin?

Fraud a sin?

'Anything like that...'?  What's that then?

 

I would refer you to the excellent Book of Judgement on the Dark Reign Forums. 

 

http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/component/docman/cat_view/43-gaming-aids?orderby=dmdate_published&start=40

 

While not considered a "canon" source, it's better than anything else that I've come across over the years. 

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SpawnoChaos said:

 

I would refer you to the excellent Book of Judgement on the Dark Reign Forums. 

 While not considered a "canon" source, it's better than anything else that I've come across over the years. 

 

 

 

No not really. 

This has actually cropped up in various forms in association with Dark Heresy.  Its a rip off / homage of the list of crimes taken from the old Games Workshop 'Judge Dredd RPG' from the 1980's.

It's an interesting list for a local planetary police force perhaps, but misses the point fairly significantly for the Arbites and doesn't represent or inform what might be seen as a SIN.

 

However, Peacekeeper_b, i think you've hit something good here;

Suffer Not the Alien to Live

 

Suffer Not the Witch to Live

Suffer Not the Heretic to Live

Honor the Form of Man, For it is the Form of the God Emperor

Obey the Imperium, For it is the Way of the God Emperor

Heed to the Clergy, For They are the Voice of the God Emperor

Give Your Life, For it Belongs to the God Emperor

 

 

This really gives something solid to try and base a heirarchy of sins around.  I presume you propose these as tenets of the Ecclesiarchy?  This gives a very interesting internal tension with the Adeptus Mechanicus with 'honour the form of man'...so according to the Ministorum the body modification inherent in the AdMech Quest for Knowledge is sinful...very interesting.

 

I still don't see how giving 75Thr to a priest stops you going insane though...

 

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