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Creature Guide on the whole a good product but the inconsistencies annoy me

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Got the Creature Guide and the Creature Vault and have been reading through both packs and on the whole I think they are both great products ( the vault is exactly what i expected, lots of cards for use by the GM to more easily track monsters actions)

The guide also has lots of useful info in it and the new monster additions are nice but....

its seems like FFG have tried to introduce some changes for some of the actions, which in theory i like, BUT those changes don't seem to have been reflected in the vault cards, which means the two products are inconsistent.

For example, the "used by" references in the guide have been greatly expanded to include both the new monsters in the guide/vault and some of the older existing monsters, so Fearsome Charge (as far as the guide suggests) is now used by minotaurs and even boars, which is a nice touch, but that's not been reflected in the cards in the vault which matches exactly the original ToA.

What's more, that means that the vault, by itself, doesn't clearly define what the default actions are for many of the new monsters in the vault; only the guide hap hazardly defines that, which brings me onto my next pain point.

The guide doesn't list default actions by monster type, only alphabetically, which means if i want to find out what actions minotaurs are "supposed" to use, I need to trawl through the guide and find references to them against each action.

Ok, I can see that FFG are trying to promote a more free-form (any action for any monster) type of approach, but they haven't really followed this through completely in either product, which leaves me either ignoring a lot of the game info in the guide and simply going with what "feels right", or trying to piece info together from three (if you include ToA) disparate products, not exactly the single place resource I was hoping for from the CG...

The final reason why I wouldn't use it as a single resource is that on top of all the other inconsistencies I've already mentioned, in the case of Seized By Bloodlust, the guide in no real way resembles the card in the vault or the original ToA. This was, at random, the first action I checked in all 3 products, so it could be the only one with a major error in it (in one of them at least, i assume the guide, as the vault is at least consistent with the ToA) but unfortunately I don't hold out much hope.

I've already seen comments on the Player's guide that it also has errors in the appendix listing, and these kinds of errors always creep into a product as soon as you try and replicate information across different mediums, but it is something FFG will need to expend some additional energy on getting right in future products if they intend to provide info in guide format in the future...IMO.

Disgruntled from England ;) Bar Humbug.

 

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Well this is disappointing news. I had not planned to get the Player or GM Vaults or Guides, but have both the Creature Guide and Vault on pre-order. It would be one thing if the Creature Guide AND Vault updated the info in ToA, but to find updated info in the Guide, while the Vault card still matches ToA info is just poor QA/QC on FFG's part. All in all, I certainly hope there aren't too many of these inconsistencies and that FFG addresses them with a FAQ and/or updated cards rather quickly.

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Definitely disconcerting, as I would have assumed the vault and guide to be the most up-to-date in terms of the system elements, but also completely in-sync with each other. Though I didn't quite understand what the issue was that you were highlighting with the Seized by Bloodlust example.  Can you expand on this please?

It still sounds like a great resource if you're already a free-wheeling GM, but if you want some sort of bible of details, these are lacking in authority.

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HedgeWizard said:

It still sounds like a great resource if you're already a free-wheeling GM, but if you want some sort of bible of details, these are lacking in authority.

Yep, that's a really good way of describing it, which for me is fine as I love a bit of free-wheeling, but it feels like they have tried to re-invent (slightly) the way monster actions work with the guide, but then tried to keep the cards in the vault matching the original ToA stuff, so that people who only purchased the vault but not the guide wouldn't be too confused.

To expand on my earlier examples, for Fearsome Charge, in the guide, it is now suggested that this could be used by Boars as well as Minotaurs and Wargors (but not Gors anymore), but the card in the vault only has the beastman trait and only has used by Gor, Wargor. Red side matches the ToA, both sides match the guide appendix.

So if you only had the vault, you'd not specifically have the guidance (from the guide, no less gui%C3%B1o.gif) that this action was also suitable for Boars, and only have the beastman trait to link it to minotaurs; the fact that the guide doesn't suggest its use for Gors, but ToA and the Vault card does, is simply an inconsistency (a cruel person would call it an error..)

There are plenty of other cards/guide entries with those kinds of inconsistencies and tenuous links in them. Not major issues, but could cause confusion for newer GMs who expect things to all be clearly explained and understandable.

The Seized by Blood lust issue is a real error, no other way of being kind to it...

The red side of the card exactly matches the ToA entry. The red entry in the guide has a 4 hammers entry (+2 Dam, +2 Crit) in addition to the matching ones from the card/ToA, the Green entry in the guide has a three hammer success line whereas the green side of the card has a 2 hammer success, the green entry has a two boon effect (+1 dam) whereas the card has a 3 boon effect (+1 crit), the card has a 2 bane effect whereas in the guide it is a one bane effect, plus the card has a exertion/delay effect (which is actually quite nifty as it appears on the green side of the card, which is the only way you are likely to be rolling both red and green dice). Unfortunately, there is no sign of this effect in the guide.

basically, the guide and the card do not match; at all.

I do hope there aren't (m)any other card/entries that fall into this level of "errorness".

Again, it feels like the guide entry has been re-jigged to give the action a bit more punch (which in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing), but no one told the guy doing the cards who was still basing that data on the original ToA entry...

 

 

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There are maybe some inconsistencies but for me this is no need for an errata.

In my opinion You need the Creature Vault to make a good use out of the Guide. 

Both product are good and handy. And having both give a good GM many useful option to play and customise His game the way he wants.

PS. @ Pumpkin - there will be no more Guides in the future as far as I know and Jay confirmed that at the seminar. This is just a one time.

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ffgfan said:

There are maybe some inconsistencies but for me this is no need for an errata.

In my opinion You need the Creature Vault to make a good use out of the Guide. 

Both product are good and handy. And having both give a good GM many useful option to play and customise His game the way he wants.

PS. @ Pumpkin - there will be no more Guides in the future as far as I know and Jay confirmed that at the seminar. This is just a one time.

There were never suppose to be guides in the first place FFG fan. Jay said there was no plans to do it again, but I bet you it happens. What wil happen is players who play the game chtless will still want chitless supplements.

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Actually, that makes perfect sense to me, and I don't think it was a mistake.  The Guide seems to be offering optional solutions and ideas for changing creatures around and giving them different action cards, especially those within reason. Boars using Fearsome Charge, for example.  However, the default is what is on the card. Boars don't normally have Fearsome Charge, but the Guide suggests that might be an appropriate action to give a boar.

I don't see a mistake here, or anything wrong with this honestly.

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@Dwang - I agre with You. I don't see a mistake here.

@ Peacekeeper_B - the idea of this game was to play it with components not without them.  And if You got the Players Guide You will see that there is no version of the game to play componentless. You must use some of them if You want or not. The tables in those books are good to see what actions are avaliable but to use those in the game - pointless and a terrible way to play becouse those are designed only to show many options. I will give You a example if I would have only the Guides and wanted to play  then  I would have to spent to much time finding informations in book or writening those on paper then playing the game. The table are impractical in my opinion .Even if You have all the G&V You still don't have all the informations and components published so far. Many informations from previous expansions are missing there - so to have it all You still need to buy those expansions. Oh and You forgot that Jay said that all the future expansions will still be published the same way as there were before. The Guide & Vaults were published to give players and GM an optional version of the core set nothing more. So if You bought the Guides and want still to play the game You will have to buy the expansions the way there are going to be published so in boxes with components - if You don't use then You can always throw those out.

In my opinion this game only works realy good the way it was designed in the first pleace so with all those cards and components. So I think You're wrong - there will be no more G&V in the future.

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ffgfan said:

 Oh and You forgot that Jay said that all the future expansions will still be published the same way as there were before. The Guide & Vaults were published to give players and GM an optional version of the core set nothing more. So if You bought the Guides and want still to play the game You will have to buy the expansions the way there are going to be published so in boxes with components - if You don't use then You can always throw those out.

 

In my opinion this game only works realy good the way it was designed in the first pleace so with all those cards and components. So I think You're wrong - there will be no more G&V in the future.

 

 

Although I agree that the game works better with components - this quoting of "Jay said" approach of yours FFGfan is getting a little old.  FFG has changed their position on this kind of stuff before - and if they think they'll make more money by printing more guides (rather than updated guides) then they'll do it without blinking an eye (and who could blame them?). 

My opinion?  There will be new guides in the future if the system lasts... and I certainly hope it does.  These new guides will contain supplementary materials that have been released in component form (as Jay said!) a few years down the road. 

More on topic: I am annoyed with any inconsistencies - and would welcome a FAQ/Errata. 

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gsoul said:

Although I agree that the game works better with components - this quoting of "Jay said" approach of yours FFGfan is getting a little old.  FFG has changed their position on this kind of stuff before - and if they think they'll make more money by printing more guides (rather than updated guides) then they'll do it without blinking an eye (and who could blame them?). 

My opinion?  There will be new guides in the future if the system lasts... and I certainly hope it does.  These new guides will contain supplementary materials that have been released in component form (as Jay said!) a few years down the road. 

More on topic: I am annoyed with any inconsistencies - and would welcome a FAQ/Errata. 

Yes, I agre that's the economical aproach is something that can't be changed. And I agre that if FFG will think that they can make more money with it they will publish does. But still i hope that we will not see any more G&V in the future - for me those are a waste of time. Old stuff published in a new way - there's nothing new in them and the same time they could release something new  and really valuable. Oh, and there's now errata in those if You don't think of cards (Aqsha, Double Strike, Rapid Fire) just  more examples of play. So like I said  for me the G&V are a waste of time and money from players point of view when we could have a lot on new materials for the game.

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ffgfan said:

gsoul said:

 

Although I agree that the game works better with components - this quoting of "Jay said" approach of yours FFGfan is getting a little old.  FFG has changed their position on this kind of stuff before - and if they think they'll make more money by printing more guides (rather than updated guides) then they'll do it without blinking an eye (and who could blame them?). 

My opinion?  There will be new guides in the future if the system lasts... and I certainly hope it does.  These new guides will contain supplementary materials that have been released in component form (as Jay said!) a few years down the road. 

More on topic: I am annoyed with any inconsistencies - and would welcome a FAQ/Errata. 

 

 

Yes, I agre that's the economical aproach is something that can't be changed. And I agre that if FFG will think that they can make more money with it they will publish does. But still i hope that we will not see any more G&V in the future - for me those are a waste of time. Old stuff published in a new way - there's nothing new in them and the same time they could release something new  and really valuable. Oh, and there's now errata in those if You don't think of cards (Aqsha, Double Strike, Rapid Fire) just  more examples of play. So like I said  for me the G&V are a waste of time and money from players point of view when we could have a lot on new materials for the game.

But many, many people bought these vaults. Give it some time, and you will see the Chaos Vault, the Magic Vault as well as teh Chaos Guide and the Magic Guide.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

 

But many, many people bought these vaults. Give it some time, and you will see the Chaos Vault, the Magic Vault as well as teh Chaos Guide and the Magic Guide.

Yes but remember that many of those who bought it are the one who already own the core set and have all the expansions. If You look through the forum You will see that many of us are playing the game from the begining. We bought the G&V becouse we wanted not becouse we needed. look at the Creatures Vault - if You have all the expansions then You just updated those with a lot of cards and if You don't have those such cards as Chaos Sorceror Of Nurgle or Great Unclean One are useles. If You realy want to use those in Youre campain You need to buy the Signs Of Faith.

So I don't think that does will come. But let use be  honest if they will come I will buy those. Why? Becouse I got a collectors soul and I like to have it all. So how many such people as I'm are here? I don't think many.

Oh, and one more thing on the forum is not the whole WFRP community and not every one who is playing the game is here.

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Oh I found one more thing I want to share with You all. If You have the Guides than You can see that on many pages You can find such word like:

"for more information look in Winds Of Magic" or "more deamons are in Signs Of Faith and Winds Of Magic" or "this card can be found in The Gathering Storm/ The Edge Of Night". So even if You bought the Guides You must buy previous expansions to have a full look to the game.

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dvang said:

Actually, that makes perfect sense to me, and I don't think it was a mistake.  The Guide seems to be offering optional solutions and ideas for changing creatures around and giving them different action cards, especially those within reason. Boars using Fearsome Charge, for example.  However, the default is what is on the card. Boars don't normally have Fearsome Charge, but the Guide suggests that might be an appropriate action to give a boar.

I don't see a mistake here, or anything wrong with this honestly.

dvang said:

Actually, that makes perfect sense to me, and I don't think it was a mistake.  The Guide seems to be offering optional solutions and ideas for changing creatures around and giving them different action cards, especially those within reason. Boars using Fearsome Charge, for example.  However, the default is what is on the card. Boars don't normally have Fearsome Charge, but the Guide suggests that might be an appropriate action to give a boar.

I don't see a mistake here, or anything wrong with this honestly.

Yep, the guide is offering additional guidance which if you don't buy, you don't know about and you just go with info on the cards, if you have bought those, obviously. I was highlighting the Fearsome Charge issue as an inconsistency that is for me annoying. Unfortunately, as in the case of missing GOR from Fearsome charge, it means that the guide isn't the definitive source of information that it should be, because only by looking at both cards and guide do you get the full picture of how the action could or should be used. 

Having checked through the guide I have to say the genuine errors are far greater in the guide than i would have hoped though, without going into specifics I have already found 3 major errors and several minor ones, where the guide is at worst simply wrong and at best extremely confusing; an experienced GM can get round this, but considering the guides were supposed to be giving the game better clarity for those that were requesting it and we holding out for better explanations, I'm not sure the creature guide, at least does that. If the player's and GM's guide have the same kinds of error in them, I'm not sure they'll help clarify the game either.

I've also got 5 action cards in the vault not listed in the guide and one action in the guide (cloak of Dragon Scales) not represented by a card.

The first half of the guide seems great, but the action listing appendix strikes as being a bit haphazard and error prone, unfortunately.

 

 

 

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I suspect there will be more vaults, and perhaps very infrequently, guides.  Adventures and campaigns I imagine will continue to be released as a box with components, but now the book will contain the few extra pages to include the rules and references included (list of action cards, new conditions, etc.)  This would also allow them to easily work careers back into adventures if they were so inclined. 

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And i think that every product in the future will come in box. In that box we will get cards, token, stand-ups and a book as it was so far. But in that book we will have a couple more pages that will future carreers, talents, actions and so on. So the products will be published the old way in boxes but will have a book with the same sort of content like in the guides so everybody can use them. That would make no diference if You play with cards or without them. I think this would be the best way of publishing WFRP in the future.

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HedgeWizard said:

I suspect there will be more vaults, and perhaps very infrequently, guides.  Adventures and campaigns I imagine will continue to be released as a box with components, but now the book will contain the few extra pages to include the rules and references included (list of action cards, new conditions, etc.)  This would also allow them to easily work careers back into adventures if they were so inclined. 

I know...someone will consider my posts on guides/vault harshes, but it's cos i really dont understand what this guides b.**** is for.!! gui%C3%B1o.gif

why have FFG wasted productiveness resources to publish guides (instead on focusing on an earlier release of the upcoming products) wich dont clarify more on rules (as posted in a couple of other posts around here), dont add anything to the game, and simply says: U WANT TO PLAY CARDLESS? WRITE THE ACTION ENTRIES  ON UR CHARACTHER SHEET.

And i was, and now i am even more like...

W.T.F.??! sorpresa.gif

u dont need guides to do that!! just download a fkng bigger char sheet pdf from the internet and copy the text u find on the cards provided whit  boxes!!!!!! even a chart about condition effect, wound and the like is something suited for a clumsy fan material, u dont need a full production team to do this!!!!!

And why now they would have to waste money to add more pages in the adventures book just to chart the information u get anyway on the components??! what is? some ppl dont have hands to browse throught a deck of cards?! (then u would not be able to browse the guides pages either!!!!)

I really hope this is the last time we heard about "guides" and from now on we will just get boxed set, as we always had for 3ed...the way is meant to be played! gran_risa.gif

PS: maybe the guides will give FFG new incomes...but since i doubt it, i will not drink this story until i dont see official financial graphics or somethin..

PPS: anyway i love this great game! happy.gif

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@ Ghiacciolo

The guides and vaults do several useful things.

- First, they, as you mentioned, assist those wishing to play component-less (or component-lite) to have an easier time of it. This was a big request by the fan base. It was not something that FFG ever intended to do, but FFG listened to the fans on the forums and strove to assist the fan base. This is a good thing, regardless whether you play component-less or not.
- Second, the guides/vaults assist GMs and players by allowing them to purchase portions of the Core Set that they need, without having to buy an entire Core Set. Now players can buy the PG+PV for their personal use, without buying an entire core set that has all the GM and creature stuff that they'll never use. For GMs, the GMV is chock full of additional components that a GM that has the Core Set could still use (more dice, more location cards, more enemy standups, another set of basic action cards, etc). For some GMs, the GMG has tables for criticals and rules for Corruption and Disease which don't come in the Core Set, making it have a 'quick lookup' ability if needed.

The Player and GM Guides deliberately have little different from the Core Set versions. They have some additional examples, and some clarified/errata's rules, but that's about it. The point for FFG wasn't to supplant/change from what comes in the Core Set (which would obsolete the Core Set). It was to, essentially, break the Core Set into separate pieces so that new GMs and players could purchase the Core Set (essentially) in portions if desired and based on need.

Only the Creature Guide & Creature Vault have new stuff.  There are new creatures (that aren't in the Core Set), and the new "Creature Action Card" components. 

Jay has said that they don't intend (note: intend. they didn't intend these ones either) to print new Guides or vaults in the future. New material is planned to appear just as it has been with all the current supplements (such as Winds of Magic, Signs of Faith, etc) and not as Guides or Vaults.

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Those G&V were released by FFG in my opinion for those reasons:

- economical (they can make more money with those)

- give players & GM's more option to the game and a chance to customise there games the way they like

- give a chance to have more components and add more players without buying the core set the second time

- show the game to players that don't like to play with components

- repair the mistake of having not all wizzard & priest in the core set

Still the game will be published the way it was before. I will tell it once more just like a broken record. So we are going to have all expansions in boxes. In every box will have cards, tokens, maps, stand-ups and books or book. In my opinion we will see in  those books tables with components (new action cards, talents, carreers ect.) so that if You buy a expansion You can play the game the way You like.

 

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 Which is how they should have done it all along IMO. 

Rather than start from the opposite starting point d20 4e did (card-style mechanics with no cards) they went with card-style mechanics with no master references. What they should have done was go with both up front card-based mechanics and reference in each product, best of both worlds really.

I'm hoping they continue the same release structure but simply add in the reference lists they put into the Players Guide. That would make my play group very happy.

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As a huge fan of WFRP 3e, and as someone who has the Creature Guide and Creature Vault already shipping to me, this is very, very, very disappointing to hear.  And to the people defending such gross editorial mistakes, what the hell are you thinking?  I'm one of the biggest fans of WFRP 3e, and I'm not going to defend this kind of sloppiness.  If anything, due to my fandom, it makes me even more disappointed, because I think WFRP 3e is great and deserves better editing than this.

I was planning on getting the player's guide and game master's guide, but I am definitely not going to get those now.  I guess I'll have to buy a second copy of the creature guide and vault when they errata it.  That's just great.

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