Space Marines compared to Akoluths

[TechVoid 1]

Hello fellow Battle-Brothers,

I need some reassuring thoughts why Space Marines are so much better than mere akoluths from Dark Heresy. I must confess that I am over and over curios about their battle stats, meaning BS and WS, while thinking about number crunching. 

Right from the start their BS and WS is just 10 more than from an akoluth. I cannot get it out of my head. 

I mean, agreed, all the other stuff with resistance to several threats like wounds, toxins, etc. is treated with talents, traits and even the power armour. 

But to come back to the two battle possibilities they seem comparable weak. I cannot think about any advantages they have compared to akoluths. Akoluths can also take aim, semi-burst, full-auto and even the game mechanics about the hordes can be used for akoluths from Dark Heresy. 

The only glimps I noticed is the Bolter Mastery the Tactical Marine can achieve in Solo Mode. That is something I expected as Talents or even Traits for every marine. Or some more support from the Power Armour, something like a target auspex giving a bonut to every shot. 

I agree that they get better over time but right from the fluff I cannot get the thought out of my head that Space Marines are comparable weak.

In the intro they say that among a hundred men maybe non fit for the Adeptus Astartes and even among a hundred Space Marines...

... but right from the start they do not look better than some veteran arbitrators to me. Very tough veterans plucked into a Power Armour. 

So what do I miss? Sorry for this but I just cannot get it out of my head. :-(

Cheers,

TechVoid.

[ak-73 248]

Squad and Solo Mode, for example.

 

Alex

[Jackal_Strain 0]

The biggest differences would be unnatural strength and toughness. That compared with starting gear that most Acolytes (sorry, I just had to) might never get their greedy little paws on makes them superior to almost anything that can be created using the DH rules.

 

[Charmander2 6]

Let's see-

• ALL Characteristics are higher, not just BS and WS, including wounds
• Marines get Unnatural Strength and Toughness, as mentioned, something only ascended characters can get (and Ascended characters are approaching the level of Marines anyhow), in addition to the other talents that yes, DH characters can take.  Having a toughness bonus of 8-10 is double to triple that of a DH character, which is exceptionally handy when trying to not die.
• Marines have superior armor and weapons and don't have to purchase any of it (they just have to ask nice), all of which according to the RAW will be impossible, or nearly so, for DH characters to get.
• Marines have access to other equipment like targeters, suspensors, etc, that you're really not likely to see outside of the astartes (or in some cases the DW specifically) until someone very important gives it to you
• All Marines start with a talent that gives them a cool ability- Bolter Mastery is one of the Tac's choices, but look at the other specialties as well- Apothecaries can heal a ridiculous amount of wounds, devestators can do damage to hordes unlike anyone else, Techmarines can do amazing things to cover
• Librarians are much more resistant to perils of the warp than a simple sanctioned psyker
• Certain talents have Adeptus Astartes as a pre-req (Bolter Drill, Abhor the Witch, Flesh Render, Killing Strike, etc.) that have some pretty cool combat effects
• Astartes tend to have more fate points that DH characters
• Astartes have, as has been mentioned, Squad and Solo mode abilities
• Astartes are nearly immune to fear and corruption

Also remember that 'veteran arbitrator', depending on XP, should be close in skill and ability to the marines.  You are playing PCs here, which means they can become quite potent compared to the standard rank and file.

I would challenge you to run through Final Sanction with a group of Acolytes, then run through it with Marines and see who fairs better; I think you'll find the marine's weapons and abilities work out pretty well in comparison.

[TechVoid 1]

Charmander said:

 

Also remember that 'veteran arbitrator', depending on XP, should be close in skill and ability to the marines.  [..]

 

 

That is exactly what I do not understand. Thank you very much that you mention it. Maybe you could explain it to me a little further. 

I could live with the comparison of a 'veteran arbitrator' and a newly indoctrinated Space Marine. I could understand that a veteran arbitrator has a earned a lot of experience and advanced to a great combat skill. The Space Marine has been gene enhanced and received a training only the best can master. 

I could somehow live with the thought that they are something called 'equal'.

But from my further understanding only the best Space Marines, namely veterans, join the Deathwatch. And finally this is my point: A veteran Space Marine should be far more than a veteran arbitrator! 

But maybe I miss something.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

[Charmander2 6]

TechVoid said:

Charmander said:

 

Also remember that 'veteran arbitrator', depending on XP, should be close in skill and ability to the marines.  [..]

 

 

That is exactly what I do not understand. Thank you very much that you mention it. Maybe you could explain it to me a little further. 

I could live with the comparison of a 'veteran arbitrator' and a newly indoctrinated Space Marine. I could understand that a veteran arbitrator has a earned a lot of experience and advanced to a great combat skill. The Space Marine has been gene enhanced and received a training only the best can master. 

I could somehow live with the thought that they are something called 'equal'.

But from my further understanding only the best Space Marines, namely veterans, join the Deathwatch. And finally this is my point: A veteran Space Marine should be far more than a veteran arbitrator! 

But maybe I miss something.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

So newly indoctrinated space marine is essentially a scout with only mostly working implants and no power armor.  The 13-14k xp you as starting in DW is supposed to represent both your implants and your experience on the field of battle.  You're "simply" a veteran (lower case) of battle and are very skilled.  You've seen the horrors of war and lived to tell about it, you've mastered your weapons and put them to good use.  At least that's the way I view it.

An arbitrator starts with 400xp, and cannot stand up to a starting marine.  Games mechanics wise they're in the realm of 13,600 xp apart, and the Marine will flatten the arbitrator in nearly any arena- charm tests, intimidation checks, move silent checks, the firing range, etc.  When they DO reach the same XP as the starting DW character, they Ascend, and the whole game is changed.  They're no longer 'veteran arbitrators' they're Judges, Inquisitors, Interrogators.  That Guardsman isn't a veteran guardsman, he's a Crusader, a Storm Trooper, or a Vindicare Assassin.

In most RPGs the PCs are special in some way.  A normal NPC arbitrator isn't going to advance to the level of a space marine, they're never going to be Ascended.  Chances are most of them are going to sit at a something like level 4 and cap out, which can still be beaten by a marine handily.  However PCs can get there, PCs are the 'named models' of TT, the focus of the story, and can eventually become agents of the Throne.

Even once characters ascend, starting ascention characters have to be very carefully built to rival a Marine in combat prowess.  It can be done, for sure, but you have to build your character that way.  And in that case, that's probably okay because it's representing a rare case- "Grimm McKillsalot, skilled in the art of death, is such a master he can even rival the skill of a Marine!" 

[TechVoid 1]

Charmander said:

So newly indoctrinated space marine is essentially a scout with only mostly working implants and no power armor.  The 13-14k xp you as starting in DW is supposed to represent both your implants and your experience on the field of battle.  You're "simply" a veteran (lower case) of battle and are very skilled.  You've seen the horrors of war and lived to tell about it, you've mastered your weapons and put them to good use.  At least that's the way I view it.

Yes,

and I think this is exactly where I have a different point of view. 

Because of sentences like this in the WH40k Wiki:

Unlike other Space Marines, the Deathwatch are not a separate Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes; rather, they are a collection of Veteran Space Marines drawn from all of the different Chapters who serve together in the Inquisition's service for a period of time.

That is my point. 

So, as a little thought: Where would you make the difference to a newly Space Marine? If a Rank 1 Deathwatch Marine is like that what we are talking about, than a newly Space Marine is even weaker? 

What you are talking about, is for me a fresh Space Marine. When his trainig is over and he has some experience on the battlefield, all his implantas are activated and now he is ready to serve. 

And now after decades of serving he has proven himself to be a great warrior and skilled Space Marine. He is about to receive the honor to serve in the Deathwatch. 

And that is the reason why I cannot simply accept a Talent like Deathwatch Training where you gain more Knowledge and automatically confirmed RF, even I must confess that this is pretty powerfull. 

But maybe I should simply stop complaining and ask my group.  Since the rules we are talking about are written and it is not the problem of the system if I have a different point of view.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

[ak-73 248]

TechVoid said:

Charmander said:

 

So newly indoctrinated space marine is essentially a scout with only mostly working implants and no power armor.  The 13-14k xp you as starting in DW is supposed to represent both your implants and your experience on the field of battle.  You're "simply" a veteran (lower case) of battle and are very skilled.  You've seen the horrors of war and lived to tell about it, you've mastered your weapons and put them to good use.  At least that's the way I view it.

 

 

Yes,

and I think this is exactly where I have a different point of view. 

Because of sentences like this in the WH40k Wiki:

Unlike other Space Marines, the Deathwatch are not a separate Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes; rather, they are a collection of Veteran Space Marines drawn from all of the different Chapters who serve together in the Inquisition's service for a period of time.

That is my point. 

So, as a little thought: Where would you make the difference to a newly Space Marine? If a Rank 1 Deathwatch Marine is like that what we are talking about, than a newly Space Marine is even weaker? 

What you are talking about, is for me a fresh Space Marine. When his trainig is over and he has some experience on the battlefield, all his implantas are activated and now he is ready to serve. 

And now after decades of serving he has proven himself to be a great warrior and skilled Space Marine. He is about to receive the honor to serve in the Deathwatch. 

And that is the reason why I cannot simply accept a Talent like Deathwatch Training where you gain more Knowledge and automatically confirmed RF, even I must confess that this is pretty powerfull. 

But maybe I should simply stop complaining and ask my group.  Since the rules we are talking about are written and it is not the problem of the system if I have a different point of view.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

 

I would guess a non-DW Space Marine might not have all the Weapons as trained yet, depending on his specialty. He also think he might not have all characteristics as 2d10+30 but rather 2 to 5 of them as 2d10+25. Some skills might not be trained yet but basic untrained still. Stuff like that. Nothing earth-shattering, just overall a bit less well-rounded.

 

Alex

 

[Charmander2 6]

ak-73 said:

I would guess a non-DW Space Marine might not have all the Weapons as trained yet, depending on his specialty. He also think he might not have all characteristics as 2d10+30 but rather 2 to 5 of them as 2d10+25. Some skills might not be trained yet but basic untrained still. Stuff like that. Nothing earth-shattering, just overall a bit less well-rounded.

 

Alex

 

That's how I would do it- take away 'astartes' weapon training and replace with the appropriate slots.  Trim some of the other skill selections.  Reduce a handful of attributes (probably give them physicals first, mentals/socials second as they mature).  Then eliminate the DW Advance table from selectable options and make them stick with the Chapter and Specialty advances. Some of these ideas are discussed in the 'normal marines compared to deathwatch marines' thread if you're interested: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=179&efcid=3&efidt=417344&efpag=0

The tone of the conversation is changing slightly though, so to go back to the initial question; DW marines, at a starting level are still better than Acolytes in many ways, whether you see the DW Marine as a veteran or as a newb.  Player Characters that have reached ascention level of DH are playing characters that are extraordinary, and is not a meager collection of arbitrators and guardsman anymore, they're Agents of the Throne.  These people are supposed to be at the level of marines in certain areas- they deal with problems that cross sectors rather than simply planets.  They face daemons and win, they uncover Genestealer cults and survive...some of the time.  Even with that said, even playing Throne Agents, the DW marines are still going to have a combat edge in 9 out of 10 situations and character builds.  Try to take acolytes through Final Sanction, I promise you they will die, and die horribly, if you play it RAW (unless they're all vindicares in power armor).

TBH, given the marines unattural toughnes and strength as Jackal_Strain points out, is one of the huge differentiators.  Because (for better or worse) the trait doubles your bonuses, you become far better at killing and surviving than a walking tank in comparison to standard humans.

[KommissarK 209]

Personally, I would say the main difference between a "regular" in chapter space marine, and one that would be seconded to the deathwatch, is the special ability each specialty has. Besides being "veterans," candidates for deathwatch are also selected for any techniques and abilities they may have outside the norm. Take the tactical marine for example.

Bolter mastery is only good in solo mode, so either he is an exceptionl marksman who doesn't work too well with others (or doesn't need to stick with the team), or he has tactical expertise, implying some exceptional ability to relay tactical information/give instructions, even among those outside his chapter.

Possibly also consider that a "regular" marine would not have (certain) solo mode abilities, where as deathwatch candidates have shown heroic prowess in moments of need. I say certain abilities as well, as some, like the space wolves senses ability, are more natural (although yet a gain, possibly not as well developed)

 

@TechVoid

As far as comparisons vs. acolytes go, I think you are discounting just how good +5 or +10 is over the acolytes stats. This would be like in D&D saying that this race has a natural +2-+4 in all ability scores just because it is better. Hell, in tabletop, guardsmen still are BS 3, vs a space marine's BS 4, thats only a roughly 17% difference. Same goes with WS, T, S, etc. So really the base stats are not too far off.

Now, I will grant that as xp increases, ascended characters, throne agents, can become scarier in some aspects. Don't waste your time comparing the vindicare character's BS to a space marine's BS. Just note that in no way can that character take a hit from anything thrown at players in deathwatch.

Also, why even compare stats between them? Players really shouldn't be fighting each other, and I don't see why a space marine should be jealous of the combat abilities of an acolyte.

[ak-73 248]

KommissarK said:

Personally, I would say the main difference between a "regular" in chapter space marine, and one that would be seconded to the deathwatch, is the special ability each specialty has. Besides being "veterans," candidates for deathwatch are also selected for any techniques and abilities they may have outside the norm. Take the tactical marine for example.

 

The difficulty with that is that there is no regular chapter space marine as they too grow through stages. I can very well imagine several Ultramarine Tacticals being more accomplished than Rank 1 DW characters. On the other hand the average, say, Bloodclaw will be much more inexperienced.

 

Alex

[Gillam Harrow 3]

as a new player to DW (rank 2 Storm Warden Librarian) I believe we're looking at the problem from the wrong angle. If you compare a Rank 4 or 5 DH Acolyte with a rank 1RT Explorer, then you'll notice that, pound for pound, there is very little difference. the IDEA is that Acolytes are still coming off the streets as starting characters, while Explorers have recieved advanced training in their field starting out, but are going to have to re-learn stuff because it has to be applied differently. perfect example: the Guardsman and the Arch Militant. a raw rank one guardsman is very very very weak and inexperienced. he's a raw recruit, and his stats reflect that. a rank one Arch militant, on the other hand, has seen wars and battles in the far corners of the imperium, and have lived to tell the tale. he's a capable fighter, but he's probably not used to having to be a bodyguard for the Rogue trader, or a field commander for a legion of troops, or a delegate for the Rogue trader, even though (in theory) he has the requisite skills to pull it off.

its the same thing here. a rank one  psyker and a rank one Librarian. the Psyker has little training with his new powers, and is monitored closelty by his bettters. a rank one librarian, however, has advanced training in his field, and knows effectively how to use his powers in conjunction with HIS chapter. however, he is not with his chapter anymore. he has to re-learn how his new unit works, so he can best use is powers to maximum potential, especially in the presence of the members of other chapters.

so its not a matter of assumed experience versus numbers. we have to look at things from the more or less hidden angles. while a veteran arbitrator can match a new marine, he also knows his powers in conjunction with his unit. the marine doesnt,

[TechVoid 1]

Okay, okay.

I have seen the Ultramarines movie today and now I think I have a better understanding of the intended feeling of a Space Marine. A super soldier, granted. But also down-to-earth and very mortal!

Cheers,

TechVoid. 

[Siranui 2]

 It's a game-thing, too. Sure: The DW rules say that you are playing a veteran marine.

But it doesn't make for a very good game to have a bunch of maxxed-out stats from start-up, a huge list of talents, and achingly-slow XP progression because you're already uber.

Likewise, it would make a dull DH game to get a tiny amount of XP and after years of play never be able to come close to matching a Marine, because 'marines are better'.

Realism is sacrificed in order to make it a better game.

[hellebore2 2]

the orignal Deathwatch material didn't necessarily require they all be veterans. They just had to have some inherent skill or knack for killing one or more types of alien.

 

This has suffered from tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdaptationDistillation where it's simplified down.

 

Perhaps you should also look at the marine progression. There isn't much past being a veteran of something. Yet marines can get +20 to each stat. What are they then, Super Veterans?

Consider this:

Acolytes start with a nominal 2d10+20 in every stat and can later accrue up to +30 (ascension).

Space marines start with 2d10+30 in every stat and can later accrue up to +20.

 

Therefore the space marine is already a veteran as he's effectively received +10 in his stats - that's 18 stat advances worth X amount of XP each. Now even if we assume they were exceptional to begin with, we can't actually give them a starting pre scout statline.

 

Marines are recruited between the ages of 10 and 12. no matter how potentially uber they would be, they'd still have children's physiques. So it would be inappropriate to give a 12 year old 2d10+25 strength. Hence we can only assume that had they acheived adulthood without marine intervention they'd probably have feral worlder stats plus some slight buffs in other areas.

 

Thus as marine upgrades are accrued as the marine matures, we reach 2d10+30 at 'veteran' level. However, this is clearly not the same thing as a Space Marine Chapter Veteran, which exist within the 1st company. The marines are not described as being 1st company veterans, thus they are simply veterans within the marine companies.

A 1st company veteran would probably be 2d10+35 or 40, having taken a lot of the advances already.

 

At least that's how it seems to me. Veteran and veteran are distinct things.

Hellebore

[KommissarK 209]

ak-73 said:

KommissarK said:

 

Personally, I would say the main difference between a "regular" in chapter space marine, and one that would be seconded to the deathwatch, is the special ability each specialty has. Besides being "veterans," candidates for deathwatch are also selected for any techniques and abilities they may have outside the norm. Take the tactical marine for example.

 

 

 

The difficulty with that is that there is no regular chapter space marine as they too grow through stages. I can very well imagine several Ultramarine Tacticals being more accomplished than Rank 1 DW characters. On the other hand the average, say, Bloodclaw will be much more inexperienced.

 

Alex

I think you misunderstand what I was trying to get at with this idea.

Consider that the special abilities are not something a marine is trained in, but rather something they are naturally good at. Not every marine might have these abilities. The abilities in the book are just ways for the player characters to elevate themselves, and possibly help explain why their character would be made a candidate for the deathwatch, even if they are not considered a "veteran." Its getting at what Hellbore initially said above.

The special abilities could just be viewed as that non standard talent that the deathwatch looks for in candidates.

So yes, certainly, a chapter may have tactical marines who are trained/on par with a rank 5 DW character, but they might not be a candidate for the deathwatch as they might be far too rigid in their ways, and lack the sort of "special abilities" the deathwatch desires. Whereas even a Bloodclaw may be made a candidate, purely because he has displayed some "special ability" beyond that of the regular marine.

What I'm trying to say, is that it doesn't purely need to be a matter of "Well, I have 20 more BS than you, so I'm better" or having some sign out front saying "You must be this awesome to join the deathwatch," but rather "This guy has skills that are unique/useful, and would complement a kill team quite nicely."

As for classes that just have their abilities by default (librarians and tech marines), it naturally makes sense that their skillset is desirable to the deathwatch, and they would be potential candidates.

I think the assumption that many make is that all marine characters (PCs or NPCs, even ones not in the deathwatch), have the special abilities as described in the Deathwatch core rulebook , taking the RAW a bit too far (much as how fans of Star Wars took Yoda saying in episode 1 about how the Sith come in 2s as being absolute Truth, to the point of rewriting old/altering future material to put a limit on how many Sith there can be)

TL;DR
Don't worry so much about hard stats, view the special abilities as what set a character aside from the rest, and elevates them to be candidates for the Deathwatch. In other words, a player could easily say that their character is straight out of being a scout/neophyte/whatever, but is now in the Deathwatch because of their particular abilities. Any further argument past that really is petty, as this is an RPG.

 

As far as comparisons vs. acolytes/explorers/throne agents go, I think the OP is just looking at this on paper too much, and worrying far too into the details of "well +5/+10 BS isn't that much higher." Space marine characters are still awesome; having unnat str/toughness, starting with power armour, and hell, even the bolt pistol and combat knife make these guys freakin scary. Also, they start trained in almost every skill they actually need in a mission, and get access to the rest by at least rank 2 or 3 (depending on your definition of need).

[ak-73 248]

I understood your point and agree with it; I was just pointing out that while we're talking about chapter marines this isn't always so clear what that means.

 

Furthermore a remark on page 31 leads me to believe that not all chapters might always send off the truly best qualified candidate. This will not hold true for the Imperial Fists plus successors or the Mantis Warriors among others, as I understand it.

Not sure who these other chapters would be though. Some of the more obscure chapters perhaps? Any speculation?

 

Alex

 

PS Didn't watch the new Star Wars trilogy. From all I have heard that was a rather wise choice.

 

[Charmander2 6]

ak-73 said:

PS Didn't watch the new Star Wars trilogy. From all I have heard that was a rather wise choice.

SHHHHH!  If you don't acknowledge their existence, they will cease to be, and order will be returned to the universe.  There were no Star Wars prequels.  And there were no Matrix sequels.

[ak-73 248]

Charmander said:

ak-73 said:

 

PS Didn't watch the new Star Wars trilogy. From all I have heard that was a rather wise choice.

 

 

SHHHHH!  If you don't acknowledge their existence, they will cease to be, and order will be returned to the universe.  There were no Star Wars prequels.  And there were no Matrix sequels.

 

Heh, I didn't watch them either. Another +100xp pour moi.

 

Alex

 

[MILLANDSON 306]

Charmander said:

ak-73 said:

 

PS Didn't watch the new Star Wars trilogy. From all I have heard that was a rather wise choice.

 

 

SHHHHH!  If you don't acknowledge their existence, they will cease to be, and order will be returned to the universe.  There were no Star Wars prequels.  And there were no Matrix sequels.

The Matrix sequals weren't as good as the original, but they weren't that bad. I also think the Star Wars prequels were easily as good as the originals.

*dons fireproof clothing*

[Sandepande 0]

No clothing will save anyone from saying such things. Burn, heretic.

[Siranui 2]

 What Matrix sequels? There were no Matrix sequels, just as there were no Highlander sequels.

 

 

[ak-73 248]

Siranui said:

 What Matrix sequels? There were no Matrix sequels, just as there were no Highlander sequels.

 

 

Didn't watch the Highlander sequels either.

 

Although I have to say some of the dialogues in Highlander (German dub) itself are quite cheesy with plenty of eye-rolling ensuing. To me that movie didn't age too well.

 

Alex

[Charmander2 6]

ak-73 said:

Siranui said:

 

 What Matrix sequels? There were no Matrix sequels, just as there were no Highlander sequels.

 

 

 

 

Didn't watch the Highlander sequels either.

 

Although I have to say some of the dialogues in Highlander (German dub) itself are quite cheesy with plenty of eye-rolling ensuing. To me that movie didn't age too well.

 

Alex

There were highlander sequels?  Hmm, I thought that Christopher "Lots of Places" Lambert and Sean Connery just teamed up again for totally different, totally horrible movies, and some Queen music tossed in.

[boruta666 2]

If i need to be honest i kinda liked 3rd prequel to historical movie about War that happend amongst Stars.

Imperial Guard Clone Army fighting rogue psykers and different Xenos...

And little answer to Original topic. Ascended Throne Agents aren't mainly used as special shock troopers. We have done little crossover between DW and DH, in case of combat SM rule is almost absolute (almost = magos, sororitas and one muchkin storm trooper excluded), in everything else they are laughing stock for acolytes.