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Santiago

Battle Sisters overpowered at start?

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 Hi,

 

I was just reading Blood of Martyrs and it seems to me the (new) sisters are a bit overpowered when it comes to equipment, they start out with a boltgun and power armour (without helmet)...
Okay, they hardly have any other equipment and can't realy have personal equipment but still....Boltgun/Power Armour at Rank 1?

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At rank one? That is insane indeed. Why would they give such equipment to a mere novice? What´s the reasoning there?

I always thought that the sisters did not get their iconic equipment until they were full fledged sisters.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

When Inquisitor's Handbook came out people complained that Sisters DIDNT start with Power Armour and Boltgun.

Now we have this.

Sigh.

And all I want is for my Guardsmen to be able to climb and read a map.

@Boltgun and Powerarmour
I remember the discussion. And I remember the guy who raised the point. Still, it does seem a little miss-balanced. By the way: are the IH-Sister now official obsolete? They were much less equipped.
 

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Ahhh, the age-old debate between balance and background. Of course it's not very balanced, at least combat-wise (do the new SOBs come with any restrictions?) But of course if someone thinks of a sister of battle he thinks of a nun in power armour with a bolter (or sometimes flamer or melta). Unlike Space Marines SOBs in the tabletop don't have novices so you can't simply say that one is supposed to start with another armour type (heck, it doesn't even work for Space Wolves).

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 Okay after some reading I found a sidebar discussing the balance issue but still.
They have to tithe any thrones beyond 50, won't get to many personal items and power armour isn't suited for undercover, however the Shield Robes (3 AP Body, Arms Legs) they also get at the start are.

At rank two they get a: Flamer or Bolt Pistol
At rank three they get a Hand Flamer or Chain Sword
At rank four they get a Melta gun and their Helmet (targeter included)
At rank five they get a power sword
At rank six they get a Storm Bolter

I will allow them, the class is better than the one in the IH as are the Faith Powers but I will have a firm discussion with the player playing the character, fortunately the only female player in my group is my GF and she gets the picture (we don't allow male players to play females, sometimes we make exception for gay male players).
 

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Santiago said:

 Okay after some reading I found a sidebar discussing the balance issue but still.
They have to tithe any thrones beyond 50, won't get to many personal items and power armour isn't suited for undercover, however the Shield Robes (3 AP Body, Arms Legs) they also get at the start are.

At rank two they get a: Flamer or Bolt Pistol
At rank three they get a Hand Flamer or Chain Sword
At rank four they get a Melta gun and their Helmet (targeter included)
At rank five they get a power sword
At rank six they get a Storm Bolter

Is there any information on how this interacts with the "Denounced and Condemned" background package from the Radical's Handbook?

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 As someone who mostly GM's for Deathwatch now, I have to ask:

 

Can the new sisters stand next to the Astartes in battle now that this new book is out? Or are they still a pale shadow of their brothers in combat, despite the new things added in this book?

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I didn't read it, but since most, of not all, Inquisition mission starts undercover, that Power Armour and bolter won't really come into play right off the bat; chances are they'll even carry it in a backpack to get out when the heretic needs a' cleasing

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SpawnoChaos said:

 As someone who mostly GM's for Deathwatch now, I have to ask:

 

Can the new sisters stand next to the Astartes in battle now that this new book is out? Or are they still a pale shadow of their brothers in combat, despite the new things added in this book?



Sure they can, if you match the experience of a Marine, a 14k Ascended Battle Sister Crusader is scary as hell, though the Bolter is still only 1d10+5 X, Pen 4, S/2/-, Tearing, Reliable, 1d10+7 X with Mighty Shot.
Their Power Armour is 7 AP (8 AP on Body)
They can buy Sound Constitution 9 times (prolly 10 times because the Rank 8 SC has an unexplained Asterisk)

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There are several things that Battle Sisters do not get however. One of  them is Swift Attack and Lighting Attack. So alone among base classes they will not get multiple melee attacks unless they pair weapons up. They also do not have access to Step Aside or Wall of Steel. I asked a question about this and was answered on Christmas day of all things. (Thank you Mack for the quick response on a holiday). Essentially its by design becuase Sisters are ranged combatants. I disagree with this but those were his words (paraphrased of course). Between their faith powers taking up a lot of xp and a limit on their melee prowess I think the class is balanced just fine. I tried to rebuild my Battle Sister using the new class and while the faith is a lot more impressive seeming, she lacks many of the skills and combat prowess she had before becuasr thins just plain cost more. I note that this seems by default especially given the words that appear on page 79. Additonally for a combat class they pay a lot for their additonal wounds as no wound advancement is less than 200 xp.

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Mjoellnir said:

Santiago said:

 

 Okay after some reading I found a sidebar discussing the balance issue but still.
They have to tithe any thrones beyond 50, won't get to many personal items and power armour isn't suited for undercover, however the Shield Robes (3 AP Body, Arms Legs) they also get at the start are.

At rank two they get a: Flamer or Bolt Pistol
At rank three they get a Hand Flamer or Chain Sword
At rank four they get a Melta gun and their Helmet (targeter included)
At rank five they get a power sword
At rank six they get a Storm Bolter

 

Is there any information on how this interacts with the "Denounced and Condemned" background package from the Radical's Handbook?


Denounced and Condemned sees the Sister without support from both the Echlesiarchy and the Adeptus Sororitas any more.

  • Radical's Handbook page 36: Condemned as a Heretic - You may also never draw on the resources or good will of the Echlesiarchy or the Adeptus Sororitas by dint of being a member of the sisterhood.

Also, they do not automatically, nor always, have said equipment per se. It's that they may requisition said equipment from their order.

-=Brother Praetus=-
 

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Santiago said:

,,,, (we don't allow male players to play females, sometimes we make exception for gay male players).
 

Gender bending is a time honored tradition at my table. Still, as GM, it's hard to get my pronouns right when I look at the female player and forget the character is male.

Right now I have a female player whose character is androgynous to the point she wants me to have NPCs have to guess and a male player who plays a secretly female Explorator (so no one really cares). 

 

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andrewm9 said:

I asked a question about this and was answered on Christmas day of all things. (Thank you Mack for the quick response on a holiday). Essentially its by design becuase Sisters are ranged combatants. I disagree with this but those were his words (paraphrased of course).

Is there a Repentia alternate career advance? Because otherwise he's right, there are no melee Sororitas, even the Seraphim use dual pistols, and the WS of a HQ is identical to that of a standard marine.

Brother Praetus said:

Denounced and Condemned sees the Sister without support from both the Echlesiarchy and the Adeptus Sororitas any more.
Radical's Handbook page 36: Condemned as a Heretic - You may also never draw on the resources or good will of the Echlesiarchy or the Adeptus Sororitas by dint of being a member of the sisterhood.

Also, they do not automatically, nor always, have said equipment per se. It's that they may requisition said equipment from their order.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I know what the Radical's Handbook says, I just hoped that there would be a bit more detail in Blood of Martyrs. It's already problematic to find a believable ascended career for a denounced sister of battle. Knowing that they can requisition the things instead of getting them sent automatically is great information, (I guess I have to buy the book as soon as the download is available), but is there anything on how a denounced soro could for example get the helmet for her armour? I guess you don't find those on the free market.

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Mjoellnir said:

 

 

Is there a Repentia alternate career advance? Because otherwise he's right, there are no melee Sororitas, even the Seraphim use dual pistols, and the WS of a HQ is identical to that of a standard marine.

 

 

Yes, the Sister Repentia is detailed on page 90 of Blood and Martyrs.  Available at Rank 4, and is the only Alternate Career rank which states you do not advance further in the normal Rank scheme once chosen, though there is hint to being able to achieve penance and still manage to be alive; GMs approval.  Also, as you may know, you lose all your normal gear for the Repentia gear.

 

Mjoellnir said:

 

 

I know what the Radical's Handbook says, I just hoped that there would be a bit more detail in Blood of Martyrs. It's already problematic to find a believable ascended career for a denounced sister of battle. Knowing that they can requisition the things instead of getting them sent automatically is great information, (I guess I have to buy the book as soon as the download is available), but is there anything on how a denounced soro could for example get the helmet for her armour? I guess you don't find those on the free market.

 

 

Crusader is probably the best Ascended Career that a Denounced Sister could pick. And given that you are expected to be working as part of an Inquisitorial Cell, it would probably be safe to ask the Inquisitor you are in service to about getting you a helmet for your PA.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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Brother Praetus said:

Yes, the Sister Repentia is detailed on page 90 of Blood and Martyrs.  Available at Rank 4, and is the only Alternate Career rank which states you do not advance further in the normal Rank scheme once chosen, though there is hint to being able to achieve penance and still manage to be alive; GMs approval.  Also, as you may know, you lose all your normal gear for the Repentia gear.

Heh, it's easy, you just have to become a living saint.gran_risa.gif St. Celestine was a Sister Repentia before her ascension. I would probably allow it when a Repentia takes Hierophant as an ascension career (and survives that long while still trying to get killed like all good Repentias).

 

 Brother Praetus said:

Crusader is probably the best Ascended Career that a Denounced Sister could pick. And given that you are expected to be working as part of an Inquisitorial Cell, it would probably be safe to ask the Inquisitor you are in service to about getting you a helmet for your PA.

-=Brother Praetus=-

You're probably right, even though crusaders are completely focused on melee, while sisters are normally ranged fighters and I have problems imagining someone who was denounced as a witch being invited to a crusader house that wants its members to be "nigh-incorruptible".

Of course the Inquisitor could easily get a helmet, but I'm not sure how I feel about the cell asking the Inquisitor for favours, but I guess that's a matter of personal preference and the Inquisitor.gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Mjoellnir said:

You're probably right, even though crusaders are completely focused on melee, while sisters are normally ranged fighters and I have problems imagining someone who was denounced as a witch being invited to a crusader house that wants its members to be "nigh-incorruptible".

Of course the Inquisitor could easily get a helmet, but I'm not sure how I feel about the cell asking the Inquisitor for favours, but I guess that's a matter of personal preference and the Inquisitor.gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

Thats what new identities are for, and people would be hard pressed to say "no" to an inquisitor who wants/needs a crusader bodyguard. Also, I believe that  it is inappropriate to request aid, in the form of equipment, from your inquisitor while at a low level (you are still trying to prove you worth at that point), but it becomes more reasonable if you make it to level 5 or 6 and you don't go too far. Bear in mind, the inquisitor would most likely skip the middle man (the ecclesiarhy) and go straight to the mechanicus to get these items.

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I think Battlesisters may be a bit strong at the start with their startign equipment, but they fall behind in a lot of other areas. Before they had a nice selection of investigative, scholarly, and combat skills. Now they pay a premium for almost all skills and talents. They end up with much less skills and are somewhat less effective in combat IMO. The Faith powers seem strong, but I'm not sure who they will even them out in combat. The really cool powers will take a lot of xp to get there.

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andrewm9 said:

I think Battlesisters may be a bit strong at the start with their startign equipment, but they fall behind in a lot of other areas. Before they had a nice selection of investigative, scholarly, and combat skills. Now they pay a premium for almost all skills and talents. They end up with much less skills and are somewhat less effective in combat IMO. The Faith powers seem strong, but I'm not sure who they will even them out in combat. The really cool powers will take a lot of xp to get there.

If you think its an issue, give other careers cooler starting gear. Have Guardsmen start as Storm-Troopers with Carapace and Hellguns (or if you think that is too much, make them have Shotguns like the Storm Trooper option in Codex Witchhunters/daemonhunters). And so forth.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

andrewm9 said:

 

I think Battlesisters may be a bit strong at the start with their startign equipment, but they fall behind in a lot of other areas. Before they had a nice selection of investigative, scholarly, and combat skills. Now they pay a premium for almost all skills and talents. They end up with much less skills and are somewhat less effective in combat IMO. The Faith powers seem strong, but I'm not sure who they will even them out in combat. The really cool powers will take a lot of xp to get there.

 

 

If you think its an issue, give other careers cooler starting gear. Have Guardsmen start as Storm-Troopers with Carapace and Hellguns (or if you think that is too much, make them have Shotguns like the Storm Trooper option in Codex Witchhunters/daemonhunters). And so forth.

Its not so much an issue to me really about the equipment. The issue that i find is that I think its weaker than other careers in general. I likely won't be using the career in my game or even the alternate careers, but I will use the new Faith Talents and equipment form the book. I guess I was a little disappointed by that. In truth I think I will have to see how the Faith Talents balance out.

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What do they do with their power armour after it powers down an hour (potentially) after they put it on? I dunno, at low levels (before they can afford secure lodgings to store valuable equipment or have allies who will guard it) it seems to me that power armour would mostly be a big pain in the butt...

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Adeptus-B said:

What do they do with their power armour after it powers down an hour (potentially) after they put it on? I dunno, at low levels (before they can afford secure lodgings to store valuable equipment or have allies who will guard it) it seems to me that power armour would mostly be a big pain in the butt...

The Sororitas power armour uses a proper military power plant, so it can operate indefinitely unless it becomes damaged. The rules for the effects of their armour becoming unpowered are included in the power unit critical effects table in the armour description.

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 The "no helmet" thing is the real balance issue. One good autogun spray and the Sister can just say goodbye to a fate point. We just had one join our campaign (everyone is rank 4) and we haven't noticed her be any less or more powerful than the rest of the party. She is a great ranged combatant (took out a Horror pretty quickly) but so did our Guardsman.

All in all we really feel like she FEELS like a Sister. Granted we haven't played much at lower levels with her (or at all) but I can say that at Rank 4 its fine.

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