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B3stie

I want to wear: Heavy Bolter, Missle Launcher, Stormbolter, Boltpistol, Chainsword, 300 rounds of ammo, my Knife + 10 Grenates

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Hi There,

i do not understand that table with the carry limits. It seems that the Charas can wear nearly everthing they want.

Isn´t there a max in volumia? Something like: Only one Heavy or two basic weapons?

It seems to be pretty much the charas may wear.

 

Wishes

B3stie

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Yes, the figures on the table are (to me) a bit off. The increase in capacity is preposterously exponential near the end.

However, weight isn't the problem, space is. There are no rules for that, but common sense should tell you when enough is enough. A knife, a pistol, some grenades, and at most two weapons which require two hands, plus some spare ammunition. That would be about the maximum what I'd allow.

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 There's nothing stated in the rules. Common sense would have to play a part, in the same way that Space Marines don't carry twin shoulder-mounted storm-bolters.

 

Someone here referenced a 'five hands' rule they like to use: So two basics and a pistol.melee weapon, or five pistols, or whatever. I'd maybe qualify that by making heavy weapons 'three handed'.

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One way you could look at it is; there are 4 bits for weapons on the character sheet thus adding your starting Knife and Pistol you can only have 2 weapons (or 1 in most cases thanks to other starting gear).

Also whilst it's cool there's the armour additions point with the jump pack & shields there should really be a seperate "backpack slot" that is filled with either the jump pack or heavy weapon ammo. This would stop all the munchkins trying to field more that one heavy weapon or trying the jump devastator idea.

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I am working the 5 hands system for weapons load out and three hands for a heavy weapon. Limiting my players to one heavy weapon, which isn’t cruel its just common sense.

I’m not sure how much ammo to let my players take in, I was going to enforce a slot system so they can choose there own stuff. Any Ideas on how much they should carry? Maybe 10 slots?

Slot(s)
1 Pistol Clips and all Nade’s
2 Basic Weapon Clips
3 Melta Bomb, Heavy weapon (if backpack is not used)

For instance, 10 slots? Four extra clips for a bolter and two frag grenades? 
 

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i think the weight limits are more of a guideline for lugging really heavy things like carrying another wounded battle brother or a large piece of cargo instead of the number of weapons you can carry in combat.   can you carry all those things you mentioned?  sure, in a large ergonomic satchel attached to your backpack replacing your ammo feed backpack and in a way that you'd have to actually remove your pack and go through it slowly to get access to the items.  what you can physically carry isn't necessarily the same thing as what you can reach effectively in combat.   the deathwatch rules are more of an old-school 80's ruleset where everything isn't necessarily balanced and fine tuned and the weight rules fall under that category, requiring some common sense when using.

we've gone with a limit generally of two basic weapons, one of which may be upgraded to a heavy weapon with a backpack ammo supply.  in addition, you can carry one pistol and one non-ornamental close combat weapon.  finally, only one backpack slot upgrade can be used at a time (jump pack, heavy weapon ammo supply, narthecium, servo arm, etc) and two additional specialty grenade slots are available within easy reach..   you have to remember that deathwatch is NOT d&d.  your character is not an intrepid adventurer who must pick up and sell on the open market every weapon he comes across when slaying his foes in order to fund his adventures.  he's instead a richly supported proud fighter with a warrior tradition going back likely thousands of years who would not even consider using a weapon he wasn't authorized or honored enough to use as it would be an insult to both himself and his chapter.  if the master of the deathwatch armory deems him fit to carry a weapon (read: he has the renown and/or req requirement for it) and/or the codex astartes dictates he can,  then he will use it.   

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 Well I could Imagen how a group could carry a spare Missile Launcher in a case, take turns carrying the ammo and the launcher it self, but it would occupy a single hand.

But normally I would allow:

Per Person:
- Pistol 
- Knife
- 6 Grenades
- Basic Weapon/Heavy Weapon
- 1 additional Basic Weapon or Pistol or 3 Grenades or Sword

Per Group: (4 Marines carrying no heavy weapon allready minimum)
- 2 Heavy Weapons and Ammo in a Sealed Weapon Case (1 marine carries the Weapon, 1 Marine the Ammo)
- 1 Weapon Case can be replaced with case of 24 grenades or 8 Melta Charges

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Not only is the weapon carry amount a consideration of "where will I put it", but it also has to do with how much the quartermaster lets you get a way with. There are a number of deathwatch marines operating out of each watch station and bolters don't grow on trees you know. I'm not saying you should impose some sort of weapon-scarcity rule, just that maybe a guideline like the 5 hands or a limit per type.

Our group is allowed:

up to: 1 Heavy, 1 basic, 2 pistols, 2 melee

or, should you choose to not take a heavy:

up to: 2 basic, 2 pistols, 2 melee

Which has resulted in our group being kitted out like so:

Dev 1 - H.Bolter, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Dipole-maglock Chainsword (doesn't run with us often)

Dev 2 - H.Bolter, Flamer, Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Dipole-maglock Chainsword

Assault - Lightning Claws (Pair), Grenades (I'm sure she carries a pistol somewhere, she's just always stabbing things with the claws)

Tac (Wolf Scout) - Stalker, Godwyn (w/ metal storm ammo), Bolt Pistol, Hand Flamer, Dipole-maglock Chainsword, Combat Knife

Tech 1 - Storm Bolter, Meltagun, Bolt Pistol, Hand Flamer, Omnissian Axe

Tech 2 - H.Bolter, Flamer, Bolt Pistol, Omnissian Axe (New guy)

Apothecary - Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Powerweapon, Has been known to pick up a missile launcher on occasion (Has severe JetPack envy)

We usually have 4-5 of those above present and that gives us a good mix of weaponry allowing us to accomplish every task we've seen so far with no real worries.

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Personally I would say:

1 heavy or basic weapon(Bolter, plasmagun, Storm Bolter) & 2 small weapons (Pistol, COmbat knife), 6 grenades.

P.fist or L. claws mean you cannot carry a Heavy.

One thing you also have to take into account, is AMMO for all those weapons, and more importantly, the Watch commander knows he is sending marines out to die. everyone who dies, chances not bringing back their load of blessed, irreplacable technology.

 

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bmaynard, if all would present: Thats an Army! ;)

In the Moment(only because of Lack of Requision):

Ogrillion - Apothecary: Lascannon, Bolter, Narthecium, Chainsword, some Grenates

Lusius Libarian: Stormbolter, Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Chainsword

Sikarus Assault Marine: Hy Bolter, Boltpistol, Power Sword, Chainsword

Kane Devastator: Hvy Bolter, Missle Lancher, Storm Bolter, Pistol, Chainsword, nearly 10 Grenates

The next Adventure will be the first out of "The emperor protects" and the will be a hight Requision(i do not want to spoil).

And REALLY much ammo, they ran once nearly out of ammo and do not want to happen this again

 

But the 5 Hand Rule seems cool. :)

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In response to the title in specific. Heavy bolter in hands + backback, missle launcher attached to back with loader on top, pistol and chainsword at the hip. Clips in pouches, grenades on belt. If a marine needs space, they can put pouches/webbing/mag lock stuff, they should easily be able to carry twice that amount of ammo and grenades.The only bit that is questionable is the storm bolter. So, that boils down to: one heavy gun, a anti-vehicle weapon, backup pistol, melee weapon, ammo and grenades. Not exactly beyond reason. These are not humans aft.

As for quartermasters denying your request, that is what requisition points are for, they are supposed to represent how much resources they will give you.

For non-terminator marines, Id go with 1 pistol, 1 melee, 1 basic, 2 heavy weapons (tradable 1:1 for pistol/melee/basic), , ~30 clips of ammo, and 15 grenades.

Terminators Id say all that plus whatever they can hard mount.

 

 

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Terminator is able to mount up to (and including) - Cyclone Missle Launcher + 2 hands worth of weapons (powerfist & stormbolter being most common, however, you could, in theory, go Assault Cannon & Powerfist/weapon/lightningclaw/stormshield as things currently stand).  This may also include speciality appropriate items such as Narthecium/Reductor (a dark angels specialty).  It is probably safe to assume that there is "specialty" terminator armor which allows a servo arm, maybe even a servo harness (though that seems overkill, I can see an Iron Hand Iron Father rocking that combo).

ATM our marines carry

1)Pistol (hip)

2)Combat Knife (belt)

3)Grenades (atm 3 krak 3 frag, though Space Wolf-esque grenade bundles, with the feel of those coin dispensers you can hang from your belt to make change, would account for those who want to carry a ton.) (belt)

4) Ammo (belt, Most SM models have half a dozen pouches, plus grenades hanging from them in the TT).

3) Melee Weapon (scabbard hanging from belt)

4) Basic or Heavy Weapon (in hand, magclamp to thigh when not in use for basic)

5) Basic weapon (magclamp to other thigh when not in use, note: magclamps are not dipolemaglocks which are a special dual magnet system between glove and weapon for extra quick quickdraws).

6) Backpack (ammo supply or jetpack + appropriate utility as I think Shrike's command squad can all take jump packs and the apothecary can still use his narthecium/reductor, don't have codex on hand to check sadly... maybe even the Blood Angels codex has something similar, would have to check.)

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Sippin said:

In response to the title in specific. Heavy bolter in hands + backback, missle launcher attached to back with loader on top, pistol and chainsword at the hip. Clips in pouches, grenades on belt.

 

the only problem is that your heavy bolter + backpack and missle launcher plus loader both occupy the same space around the powerplant at the back of the armor.  the "loader" isn't only on top but around the backpack as that's where the extra rockets are stored that are loaded.   you can't phsycially use both backpack attachments although i can see a bit of a case for allowing the missle launcher tube by itself or the heavy bolter with a clip and the ML stowed and using the back ammo instead..

aobr14.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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As covered in the other thread regarding carrying two heavy weapons, this is described in more detail in the text description of the carry limits.  It says to use common sense, and that a character can reasonably carry one main weapon, a pistol or two (which I read as 1-2 small weapons or melee weapons), several clips of ammo, several misc items in a backpack, etc.  It also goes on to say that it would be unreasonable for a character to tote around multiple heavy weapons and ammo regardless of his strength.  You have to read the fluff text, not just the weight calculation table.

IMHO, two basic, two melee, two pistols is too much- I'd let them take it but impose AG penalties on them as they try to navigate through and around things, while their weapons clack and get in the way.

@Sippin- the quartermaster can deny you whatever he wants to deny you.  If the 'rule' of the fortress is one basic or one heavy except under direct authority of person of rank X, that's the way it is.  You're in 40k, you can simply say it's a tradition and 99% of all space marines will stfu. 

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Ah, I dont have my deathwatch book on me at the moment, but I thought the deathwatch launcher wasnt the full backpack type since you had to requisition per round and thus had some reduced loader. If it is the fullback pack, then I would agree the loader wouldnt work, but you should still be able to carry it round +1-2 rounds and load by hand.

As for the the quartermaster just saying no because its a tradition, another way to refer to that is a heavy handed GM. Without bringing fiat in, requisition is supposed to represent the amount of resources you are being given to this mission. If a fortress did have such limiting rules, it would be highly disrespectful to the marines who think that they need that equipment to complete the mission and very odd that the inquisitor in charge would do so.

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To me it makes no sense at all for a marine to run around with 2 heavy weapons unless he is just transporting the extra to a location where it can be used by the team.... if needed.  You also have to remember that every piece of gear that is given to a marine is sacred to the chapter/deathwatch and it is very unlikely that two heavy weapons would be issued/given to a marine for that very reason.  

On a side-note, I would think it very likely that a marine forms a bond with his chosen weapon and would generally use only his issued or signature wargear.  I realize that you are essentially playing the misfits/best-of-the-best in Deathwatch and there are is a good reason that many extra options are available to equip a marine but IMO there is no reason why the Quartermaster is going to put too much sacred wargear in one space marine's hands.

In the end though it is up to you or your GM to make the decision of what makes sense.

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To me it makes less sense for them to deny a highly respected brother going up against mechanized chaos guardsmen a missile launcher because he already has a heavy bolter, yet they will gladly give let him have an iron halo, a relic blade, an adamantine cloak and terminator armor (assuming he has terminator honors). Do they just expect him to kill a tank with his storm bolter? Or should he run up and hit it with his sword?

I completely agree that a standard marine would form a bond with their personal gear and use that to the exclusion of other gear. That is a roleplaying restriction though, and it is certainly conceivable that a individual holds the belief that it is better to carry around any equipment that increases their chances in carrying out the emperor's holy mission.

Honestly, even if you could bring along every single heavy weapon and oodles of ammo it doesnt help that much. When you can lug around a heavy bolter you will already be doing overkill to hordes and individuals. Even a missile launcher is only useful for doing aoe damage since the bolter will do better single target damage. The only time you want another heavy weapon is against extremely armored targets.

 

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 It is not the objective of every marine in the team to fit every possible roll.  If you expect to be seeing armored vehicles then as a devastator it is your responsibility to carry a rocket launcher/lascannon instead of your heavy bolter unless someone else in your team is going to be running at the heavy armor with melta bombs and powerfist swinging.  Personally if anyone that plays in my games tries to run around with two heavy weapons I am going to ask them to think again and find a combination that makes sense.  I can easily see a devastator having a rocker launcher/lascannon with a standard bolter as his secondary that will solve your heavy weapons problem.  

I think the ultimate problem here is that people get way too attached to the heavy bolter and need to think more about fulfilling the role they play in the team rather than trying to fill every role under the sun.  You are either going to have a horde destroying heavy bolter or you are going to have a heavy armor killer like the lascannon.  Conveniently the rocket launcher is a mix of both worlds and is likely your best choice.  This is all dependent on the mission at hand and what intel the team has before getting their mission goodies.  

Just to make sure I was clear,  I didn't say that it was a problem for a marine to carry extra equipment to be used by the group b/c that is done in real life operations.  I just can't get the picture of some ridiculous loaded down space marine that looks more like a transformer gone wrong out of my head.  I will leave it at that and wish you the best in your gaming.

P.S. - This is all of course my personal opinion and you are not expected to agree with any of it.

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Sippin said:

Ah, I dont have my deathwatch book on me at the moment, but I thought the deathwatch launcher wasnt the full backpack type since you had to requisition per round and thus had some reduced loader. If it is the fullback pack, then I would agree the loader wouldnt work, but you should still be able to carry it round +1-2 rounds and load by hand.

Yup, they call it the soundstrike pattern, on page 152, carries 8 missles on the back and has a loader claw.  And it's twice as heavy as a heavy bolter unloaded which implies the tube portion of it would likely be as heavy as the heavy bolter (give or take).  While we don't care about weight, this implies it's going to be one big missle launcher; this isn't going to be the equivalent of a modern compact anti-tank weapon, this thing is huge (just look at the image on the previous page).  I would agree that a tactical marine with a normal pack could probably strap the thing to his back and have someone else get it for him (though I'm still going to impose penalties on him for certain actions), but to strap it on the outside of a heavy bolter's already large backpack is....well silly.

Sippin said:

As for the the quartermaster just saying no because its a tradition, another way to refer to that is a heavy handed GM. Without bringing fiat in, requisition is supposed to represent the amount of resources you are being given to this mission. If a fortress did have such limiting rules, it would be highly disrespectful to the marines who think that they need that equipment to complete the mission and very odd that the inquisitor in charge would do so.

Yes, but given the 'fluff' that is 40k, you don't hear many stories of a marine going into battle with a storm bolter, a heavy bolter, a chainsword, powersword, two bolt pistols, and a jump pack.  The quartermaster saying no would be a way in which I'd inform my players, not all of whom are officianados of the 40k universe, that it is not normal, and they would have trouble storing the stuff on their person.  As GVegas says, maybe if their plan is to stash some of the gear at a hardpoint or safe house for later use, okay, but if their plan is to carry it across the battlefield...no.

It's also essentially reinforces the rule of thumb on page 208, which tells you to rely on common sense and that marines can physically "reasonably carry one main weapon plus one or two secondary weapons (such as pistols or melee weapons) plus a few clips of extra ammo and several pieces of misc equipment."

And IMHO this isn't disrespectful to the marines for a superior to say no, it's disrespectful to the institution for a marine to question its decisions.  Page 138: "If a kill-team disagrees with the assessment of a Mission's difficulty, their leader can try to convince the Mission authority, but frequent quibbling is not viewed favorably."  While that's in reference to req, I'd say judging from what fluff I've experienced, it applies to most things in a battle-brothers life- your commander says stand your ground, you stand your ground.  Your commander says charge, you charge.  If it was disrespectful to a marine to deny them what they think they needed to do the job, they would get to set their own req (which they don't) and renown wouldn't be an issue (which is is). If I feel that I need terminator armor to succeed, then why can't I have it?  Because tradition (and the codex) says I need to be of a particular rank and have achieved a certain amount of glory in order to have said armor.

As for 'roleplaying restrictions' we are aftera all talking about a roleplaying game, and while you're not your 'average' marine, going into battle trying to lug all this stuff around is highly unusual based on the setting.

Sorry if I come across as being a **** here, it's not actually my intention- if your game works with this setup then go for it.  I just don't see it as logical or 'reasonable.'  It strains my suspension of disbelief to have marines req that much and that variety of gear; it doesn't match the setting and it's awkward.  To me it doesn't match the intent or feel of the setting.

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Guest Not In Sample

 

This is 40k, home of the Terminus Ultra Land Raider.

m1020408_Terminus_Ultra.jpg

And Marneus Calgar goes in to battle with two power fists and two wrist mounted bolters. PC Marines are well on their way to being Special Characters from the wargame, so they have a lot of leyway in this stuff.

Plus concept art for man portable twin-linked assaultcannons:-

62813492.jpg

I think the image we want to be looking at is something like an SAS Jeep- special operations soldiers given permission to strap as many guns and as much supplies to their vehicles as they can fit on.

NA2.jpg

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 Yeah, it does look like I messed up remembering the missile launcher and the storm bolter stats, forgot that the storm isnt even heavy. You could still probably carry a heavy bolter and a missile launcher by forgoing the heavys ammo pack in favor of clips (or forgo the loader and do it by hand, either way)

I personally dont care what my players bring with them, mechanically it is of little extra benefit and eats up req they could have put to better use. If they really want a multi-melta instead of an iron halo, that just makes it more likely that they will die. If I was in their shoes I would spend all my spare req on bionics for permanent character improvement that would still be a valid req fluff wise.

Fluff and roleplaying wise, there are plenty of reasons for marines not to load up like modern soldiers. I was more trying to point out that it is unnecessary to force your players to play how you want them for a completely arbitrary reason instead of explaining why their character wouldnt do that.

Really between the mechanical weakness and the fluff, it only makes sense for a player to carry all this equipment if they are from a custom chapter that would.

I wasnt trying to imply a marine would vocally disagree with restrictions being placed upon what they could req, just that I couldnt see another space marine implementing such a rule with all the resources deathwatch has (given all relics you can afford and use, but no to two heavy weapons!?) and that it would be disrespectful for an inquisitor to think themselves a better judge of combat than a marine.

I have some former soldiers in my group who wanted a chapter based a bit on their battalion. As such, their tactics and loadouts resembles modern soldiers without weight limits (or IG in power armor minus the trench warfare). Honestly, I toss a few more hordes and a tank or two at them and they are probably in more danger than they would be if they didnt get to carry around extra equipment. I feel restricting it only ends up angering players who want to carry all that equipment without lessening the workload on a GM at all.

 

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Guest Not In Sample

Certainly one must remember that Quartermasters in 40krp land are some of the most ballsy people who have ever lived. They will refuse any PC any weapon, even if it is insane or suicidal to do so.

Before Ascension came out we had supply clerks refusing to give Inqusitors missile launchers.

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A: The Inquisition ain't the boss of me, The Watch Commander is a space marine, not an inquisitor. Even the surliest Space Wolf is going to think twice about sassing him.

B: The weight limits on marines are MAXIMUM, as in the utter most they can manage. As in, a regular person CAN carry 80 pounds for an extended period, but it will exhaust them quickly.

C: Most importantly, everyone is looking at what is unreasonable to carry, when the rulebook specifically says what IS reasonable. One main weapon (Boltgun, lasgun, flamer or flamer is the book's example, 2 secondary weapons (PISTOL or MELEE WEAPON), and a FEW clips of ammo (10 is not a few).

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