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peterstepon

Why use Plasma Guns?

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actually, upon re-reading volatile, it actually says, "if a 10 is rolled for damage, righteous fury occurs automatically, dealing another 1d10 points of damage, if the second roll results in a 10 further damage is possible (see righteous fury on pg 245)."  So, plasma guns get (even with the old RF rules) an easier time of doing more damage with auto-RF and an addition RF die.

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My solution for my group is to up the damage of all plasma weapons by 1d10. I've also ruled that maximum mode on plasmaguns and pistols can only be used with single shots.

This means that a plasmagun will fire with 2d10+9; Pen 8 with single or semi-auto modes normally and 3d10+9; Pen 10, but only singel fire on maximum mode.

I believe this puts them above the bolter in damagedealing capability nicely, but doesnt overshadow the bolter in every way. The bolter is still a more versatile weapon.

 

I'm contemplating giving the plasma cannon blast 3 on standard, so that it has blast 5 on maximal mode. This might make it more desirable compared to a heavy bolter, but still not stealing the heavy bolters thunder.

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Luddite said:

*Facepalm*

4 pages of numbers and half-baked house rules...all totally missing the point.

Deathwatch is a roleplaying game.

Why use plasma guns?

 

Yeah but RPG doesn't mean only role-playing it also means game. And I'd like the weapons in this game to perform pretty much as they do in the tabletop. I think your facepalming is a bit uncalled for.

Furthermore does anyone happen to own Wargear 40K? I'd like read more background on the Plasma Cannon.

 

Alex

 

 

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Luddite said:

*Facepalm*

4 pages of numbers and half-baked house rules...all totally missing the point.

Deathwatch is a roleplaying game.

Why use plasma guns?

Plasma guns are incredibly rare and ancient weapons, wielded by countless battle brothers for centuries before you.  To be allowed to take one into battle is an incredible honour that any marine would be proud to be given the chance to do.

 

In the background, plasma and melta are lethally powerful weapons. They annihilate infantry and vehicles alike. The reason they're ancient and valued relics is not just their rarity, it's at least in part their sheer killing power. Several people believe that the Deathwatch rules do not represent the power of these weapons, hence this discussion. I for one do not consider it good roleplaying to allow background to be ignored for no good reason.

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Decessor said:

Luddite said:

 

*Facepalm*

4 pages of numbers and half-baked house rules...all totally missing the point.

Deathwatch is a roleplaying game.

Why use plasma guns?

Plasma guns are incredibly rare and ancient weapons, wielded by countless battle brothers for centuries before you.  To be allowed to take one into battle is an incredible honour that any marine would be proud to be given the chance to do.

 

 

In the background, plasma and melta are lethally powerful weapons. They annihilate infantry and vehicles alike. The reason they're ancient and valued relics is not just their rarity, it's at least in part their sheer killing power. Several people believe that the Deathwatch rules do not represent the power of these weapons, hence this discussion. I for one do not consider it good roleplaying to allow background to be ignored for no good reason.

I have to back up Alex  and Decessor here. While much of a role playing game is taking on the role and pretending you're someone else using acting, narrative, and description to experience the world, there are mechanical aspects as well. Otherwise we'd not play with dice, have damage profiles, or skill checks. Now if I'm a PC and I a weapon based on the game's history, backstory, and the fluff text, shouldn't that weapon's description be backed up by actual statistics so that the descriptions the GM gives when I use the weapon reflect it's background?  And as a GM, should you have to bend rules (making HRs on the fly) in order to describe the scene the way it would 'accurately' happen based on the back story?


 

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Jackal_Strain said:

My solution for my group is to up the damage of all plasma weapons by 1d10. I've also ruled that maximum mode on plasmaguns and pistols can only be used with single shots.

This means that a plasmagun will fire with 2d10+9; Pen 8 with single or semi-auto modes normally and 3d10+9; Pen 10, but only singel fire on maximum mode.

I believe this puts them above the bolter in damagedealing capability nicely, but doesnt overshadow the bolter in every way. The bolter is still a more versatile weapon.

 

I'm contemplating giving the plasma cannon blast 3 on standard, so that it has blast 5 on maximal mode. This might make it more desirable compared to a heavy bolter, but still not stealing the heavy bolters thunder.

This sounds the best so far from what I've read. 

Makes them lethal, but not completely overshadowing the bolter. The advantage the bolter has over plasma is still ROF, which makes up for the lesser damage. 

It almost feels right. I'd have to playtest to find out.

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ak-73 said:

You'll have increase meltaguns and inferno pistols by 1d10 too in that case, no?

 

Alex

 

They already get that bonus for being in Short Range or closer.  Which for Meltagun it's practically point blank, a good place to get the +30 to hit. With +10 for half action aim, with ~40 BS, you're looking at good 80% of hit.

To fix Plasma guns, I think adding +5 to their damage would be a good idea. So at Maximal a Plasma Pistol would be 2d10+13 Pen 10. Plasma Gun at 2d10+14 Pen 10, Plasma Cannon 3d10+16 Pen 12 Blast 3. Yet this would be single shot. Whereas a Melta is still doing 3d10+8 most the time, and can do that every time till they run out. Or with Kraken Rounds on your bolter, you're still going to be putting out heavy damage over a period. Whereas Plasmas are more one shot weapon.

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Manyfist said:

ak-73 said:

 

You'll have increase meltaguns and inferno pistols by 1d10 too in that case, no?

 

Alex

 

 

 

They already get that bonus for being in Short Range or closer.  Which for Meltagun it's practically point blank, a good place to get the +30 to hit. With +10 for half action aim, with ~40 BS, you're looking at good 80% of hit.

To fix Plasma guns, I think adding +5 to their damage would be a good idea. So at Maximal a Plasma Pistol would be 2d10+13 Pen 10. Plasma Gun at 2d10+14 Pen 10, Plasma Cannon 3d10+16 Pen 12 Blast 3. Yet this would be single shot. Whereas a Melta is still doing 3d10+8 most the time, and can do that every time till they run out. Or with Kraken Rounds on your bolter, you're still going to be putting out heavy damage over a period. Whereas Plasmas are more one shot weapon.

Meltas are actually one shot weapons.

Me, I prefer the +1d10 for plasma because of the increased chance for Righteous Fury but even if you give the Plasma Cannon +1d10, it might be sub-par compared to a master-crafted Heavy Bolter with Kraken rounds and various abilities that aid the total damage.

As to the meltagun, it's damage should be more similar to the multi-melta and above the damage of the plasma gun. If you give the plasma gun +1d10, it will be the same as the meltagun. Meltagun needs 3d10. (+1d10 short range)

Just compare Boltgun with Kraken rounds and Meltagun (wihout the +1d10) - what would rather shoot a Tyranid Warrior with? And I won't even mention hellfire rounds, etc.

 

I think Meltaguns and Infernos Pistols need the boost.

 

Alex

 

 

 

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I've actually thought about giving Meltas+1d10 to damage overall, and changing the +1d10 damage on short range to +1d10 Pen. This would make them deadlier compared to bolters and plasma weapons allround and reflect the tabletop rules in making them extremely dangerous to vehicles and instalations. I haven't play tested this yet, so i'm not 100% sure if I'm gonna do this.

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our gaming group was having similiar problems with most weapons, plasma and melta being bigest of them all.

our first change was giving plasma weapons another die of damage. It looked good at first but then players returned to bolt weapons.

Second try was to just simply double basic damage bonus (even for plasma grenades and missiles), it worked better, especially for cannon on maximal mode. then we changed penetration to 10 for all weapons. Plasma weapons started to work vs. heavy armoured targets and shine like little suns on maximal mode.  Now players don't laugh when someone is puting his 20 points for one plasma grenade or 25 for plasma pistol.

Also its important to mention that i don't allow another basic weapon, u chose plasmagun u stick to it whole mission. And if weapon overheats u must test Ag if u are able to drop it in time.

our plasma specs: (maximal mode ads: range +50%, +1d10 damage, +2 penetration, recharge and overheat)

Pistol 30m S/2/- dam:1d10+16 E pen:10 clip:12 rld:3Full spec:Volatile, Semi-Auto overheats.

Basic 100m S/2/- dam:1d10+18 E pen:10 clip:40 rld:4Full spec:Volatile, Semi-Auto overheats.

Heavy 150m S/–/– dam:2d10+22 E pen:10 clip:16 rld:5Full spec:Blast (1), Volatile

Astartes Plasma Grenade range:SBx3 dam:1d10+24 E pen:8 spec:Blast (1),Volatile

 

i bet its not end for house ruling in case of Plasma weapon...

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Jackal_Strain said:

I've actually thought about giving Meltas+1d10 to damage overall, and changing the +1d10 damage on short range to +1d10 Pen. This would make them deadlier compared to bolters and plasma weapons allround and reflect the tabletop rules in making them extremely dangerous to vehicles and instalations. I haven't play tested this yet, so i'm not 100% sure if I'm gonna do this.

I'm currently using +1d10 damage to Meltas, with a +1d10 damage at short range.  My rationale is that with pen 13 nothing but bunkers and tanks have armor that can stand up to that so short range only gets you a bonus is a tiny fraction of your encounters. 

So far, so good- but we've not had that many missions where the short range of the melta has come into play.

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My current house-rule is that all Plasma -type weapons have Felling (1) and all Melta -type weapons have Felling (2). Works great and I didn't even have to change the damage in any way.

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I have upped plasma and melta damage by +1d10 in my group, with the restriction that plasma can only be fired on single shot in maximum mode.

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Polaria said:

My current house-rule is that all Plasma -type weapons have Felling (1) and all Melta -type weapons have Felling (2). Works great and I didn't even have to change the damage in any way.

 

The only reason I'd not use this is that it doesn't fix the plasma weapon's main problem - crappy chance to destroy vehicles. 2d10+5 tearing pen5 full auto 4 is a better way to destroy a vehicle than 1d10+9 pen 8 semi 2.

A plasma gun should be signficantly better at vehicle destruction than a bolter generally. That's why the guard use them, or marines for that matter. Plasma guns are marine squad support weapons for a reason, but at the moment they'd be better off just carrying an additional bolter instead as it fulfills the plasma gun's role better and more reliably.

 

Hellebore

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Hellebore said:

Polaria said:

 

My current house-rule is that all Plasma -type weapons have Felling (1) and all Melta -type weapons have Felling (2). Works great and I didn't even have to change the damage in any way.

 

 

 

The only reason I'd not use this is that it doesn't fix the plasma weapon's main problem - crappy chance to destroy vehicles. 2d10+5 tearing pen5 full auto 4 is a better way to destroy a vehicle than 1d10+9 pen 8 semi 2.

A plasma gun should be signficantly better at vehicle destruction than a bolter generally. That's why the guard use them, or marines for that matter. Plasma guns are marine squad support weapons for a reason, but at the moment they'd be better off just carrying an additional bolter instead as it fulfills the plasma gun's role better and more reliably.

 

Hellebore

I always thought that the plasma weapons were anti heavy infantry and melta weapons were for armour? I think felling makes sense in that your physical hardiness will have absolutely no effect on the micro sun thats punching a hole through your chest. The only thing I would alter is the way felling works so that it simply ignores toughness when there is no unnatural stat. My reasoning being that a plasma weapon would be as effective on a guardsman as it would be on Space Marine....

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Hadriel said:

Hellebore said:

 

Hellebore

 

 

I always thought that the plasma weapons were anti heavy infantry and melta weapons were for armour? I think felling makes sense in that your physical hardiness will have absolutely no effect on the micro sun thats punching a hole through your chest. The only thing I would alter is the way felling works so that it simply ignores toughness when there is no unnatural stat. My reasoning being that a plasma weapon would be as effective on a guardsman as it would be on Space Marine....

That's good, ignore toughness without unnatural X, and it works normally when that appears. So for space marines if hit on Maximal mode, they're only going to get half of their TB since plasma kicks the unnatural down. If it were say a guardsman, the plasma gun just basically melts him. He has no toughness, no armor, taking that d10+X as full damage. 

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Hadriel said:

Hellebore said:

 

Polaria said:

 

My current house-rule is that all Plasma -type weapons have Felling (1) and all Melta -type weapons have Felling (2). Works great and I didn't even have to change the damage in any way.

 

 

 

The only reason I'd not use this is that it doesn't fix the plasma weapon's main problem - crappy chance to destroy vehicles. 2d10+5 tearing pen5 full auto 4 is a better way to destroy a vehicle than 1d10+9 pen 8 semi 2.

A plasma gun should be signficantly better at vehicle destruction than a bolter generally. That's why the guard use them, or marines for that matter. Plasma guns are marine squad support weapons for a reason, but at the moment they'd be better off just carrying an additional bolter instead as it fulfills the plasma gun's role better and more reliably.

 

Hellebore

 

 

I always thought that the plasma weapons were anti heavy infantry and melta weapons were for armour? I think felling makes sense in that your physical hardiness will have absolutely no effect on the micro sun thats punching a hole through your chest. The only thing I would alter is the way felling works so that it simply ignores toughness when there is no unnatural stat. My reasoning being that a plasma weapon would be as effective on a guardsman as it would be on Space Marine....

But it won't because the Space Marine will still have a TB 1 to 3 points higher and he'll have at least double the Wound Points. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Seriously, I'd like to know if the 40K Wargear book has more information on Plasma. As I understand it Plasma is not just heavy infantry but also light to medium vehicles. Also +1d10 buffs Plasma in a better way because of the increased chance for RF. And even then the Plasma Cannon is probably not as good as the Heavy Bolter in DW.

But it's a matter if personal preference. One thing seems to be consensus though: plasma deserves some better stats.

 

Alex

 

 

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Funny thing from my last game (with group that dont use house rules):

d10+25 I, pen 0, two or four attacks per round, no usage of ammo, no reload. 

or

d10+18, pen 4, two or four attacks per round, tearing, RF:8+, no ammo, no reload

vs

d10 +9 E, pen8, Volatile, S/2/-, (normal plasma gun)

 

1st, rank 8 melee unarmed damage with Preternatural Speed, Frenzy, and feat of strenght.

2nd, rank 8 melee unarmed with Preternatural Speed, Frenzy and Blood Frenzy.

3rd, plasma gun, weapon shooting little suns...

 

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