Tyrion Lannister vs. Dragon Skull

[FATMOUSE 0]

 Yeah, it's a bit messy.  The biggest problem is how do we resolve attachments coming out of the Shadows, specifically Dragon Skull; although events are hairy too despite following a logical sequence of steps.  Nate has his plate full in terms of coming through with a nice, clean explanation (and possibly new set of rules).

As for when an opponent takes control of a Shadows card you own, if it is directed back into the Shadows it goes into its owner's area unless stated otherwise. Balon (KL) is an exception to the rule because his ability specifically says to put it in its controller's Shadows.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

but that doesn't mean you "played" the card by any definition of the word "play" in this game. If it did, wouldn't that replace the fact that you brought the card out of Shadows? Meaning that the Response on the event itself is inapplicable?

Ok, true, but you forget that "opponent's has first response" rule was added few months ago. (And I'm not sure if it's fortunate - that's why I voted "more like framework action" when we discussed that problem earlier). When I've read Shadow rules for the first time I thought: ok, so I come out of Shadows, but then I do exactly the same as if I was playing the event from my hand. Simple and intuitive. That's why "treated" - act like a king even if you are not the one. Just like characters and attachments - nothing new except that it's from shadows not from hand. That means: do what you usually do. I thought that response on shadow events is a playing restriction, since designers couldn't write "any phase" or something. I think they wanted to make it similar to how events work. The idea of revealing event and giving opponent a chance to react is not intuitive in the game where only magic "cancel" word can do that. The same with attachments btw.

 

[ktom 598]

Twn2dn said:

So you're telling me that my opponent gets to use a Black Cells/Guild Hall one last time before my shadows discard-location event goes off?

Yes, but even if he didn't get to use it one last time before, he'd get to use it one last time after (while the location is Moribund). So it's not like this particular quirk of timing changes things much - except for the Tyrion/Dragon Skull thing.

Twn2dn said:

maybe the shadows rules should be FAQ'd to say "the player who controls the card that comes out of shadows may take the first response to the card coming out of shadows" or "printed responses on a card that just came out of shadows must be resolved before players may trigger other responses to the card coming out of shadows" (or something like that...I know the text isn't quite right, but you get the idea).

Countering the existing FAQ entry saying the opposite?

Twn2dn said:

Separately, if my opponent steals a card of mine and then it goes back into shadows, does it go back to the original owner's shadows area, or the new controller's shadows area? My guess is that it goes back to the owner, since it left play (just as a stolen character would go to the owner's dead pile after it died). But if that's the case, then cards like King's Landing Balon get confusing, unless his text allows for an exception to the rule.

Has been discussed in other threads. "Shadows" is an out-of-play area, so if I take control of your character and return it to Shadows, it goes to your Shadows area, just like killing it would send it to your dead pile. This is in the FAQ. Balon is different in general because he does not take control of a card in play, then send it out of play. He takes control of a card that is out-of-play (your discard pile) and puts it into another out-of-play area (my Shadows area). So the mechanism is different from your "stolen character goes to owner's dead pile when it leaves play," and the rule about reversion does not apply (since the card is not leaving play).

Note that that particular rule will apply if I bring the card I stole with Balon out of Shadows and into play, though. For example, if I use Balon to steal your Syrio, take him from your discard pile and put him in my Shadows are (as instructed by Balon's text). Now I can bring Syrio out of Shadows and into play, still under my control (no rule says that a card reverts to owner when it enters play...). If Syrio dies - or I use his Response to return him to Shadows - he would go to the appropriate out-of-play area under your control (subject to the rule that says cards revert to their owners when they leave play). 

 

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

Ok, true, but you forget that "opponent's has first response" rule was added few months ago.

The fact that it appears in the "Frequently Asked Questions" section instead of the "Rulings and Clarifications" section argues strongly that this was the way it had always worked rather than "adding" it as a "new" rule.

[Twn2dn 1]

"Yes, but even if he didn't get to use it one last time before, he'd get to use it one last time after (while the location is Moribund). So it's not like this particular quirk of timing changes things much - except for the Tyrion/Dragon Skull thing."

 

Good point, but the Tyrion/Dragon Skull thing still bothers me.

 

"Countering the existing FAQ entry saying the opposite?"

Yes. Why would it be bad to update a FAQ with something that is more intuitive. (Or maybe I'm the only one who things the current rules are somewhat counterintuitive.)

 

"Note that that particular rule will apply if I bring the card I stole with Balon out of Shadows and into play, though. For example, if I use Balon to steal your Syrio, take him from your discard pile and put him in my Shadows are (as instructed by Balon's text). Now I can bring Syrio out of Shadows and into play, still under my control (no rule says that a card reverts to owner when it enters play...). If Syrio dies - or I use his Response to return him to Shadows - he would go to the appropriate out-of-play area under your control (subject to the rule that says cards revert to their owners when they leave play)."

 

Awesome clarification, thanks Ktom! I definitely would have misplayed this had I tried to use Balon (not that I ever play GJ though), and a good reminder of how the rules work. 

[Twn2dn 1]

Ugh, Google Chrome must hate something about these forums. No matter how many times I try, I just can't get the text to quote correctly. (Sorry for the pseudo off-topic post.)

[ktom 598]

Twn2dn said:

"Countering the existing FAQ entry saying the opposite?"

 

Yes. Why would it be bad to update a FAQ with something that is more intuitive. (Or maybe I'm the only one who things the current rules are somewhat counterintuitive.)

Just making sure everyone was on the same page with that one. It wouldn't have been the first time someone said "that question ought to be answered in the FAQ," only to find that it had already been addressed in the FAQ - with a different answer than expected. Nothing wrong with wanting an FAQ entry changed.

 

[Delobius 0]

Not to burden this thread with any more weird analogies or scenarios, but...

How would the Tyrion - Dragon Skull interaction be different if Tyrion's text said "When an attachment enters play, Tyrion gains +2 STR until the end of the phase" and if Dragon Skull was a regular attachment instead of a Shadows card?

In this case, Tyrion would survive until the end of the phase, correct? (Assuming his STR had already been reduced in some way, as previously discussed.)

[Mathias Fricot 0]

That depends on what your are changing

the way you have written it would make Tyrion's ability passive, and would resolve after the Response effect of Dragon Skull (Assuming it was modified to be a Response effect for coming into play and had nothing to do with shadows). So Tyrion would die.

 

[ktom 598]

Mathias Fricot said:

the way you have written it would make Tyrion's ability passive, and would resolve after the Response effect of Dragon Skull (Assuming it was modified to be a Response effect for coming into play and had nothing to do with shadows). So Tyrion would die.

Uh...why would the passive resolve after the Response? Passives always resolve before Responses can be triggered.

If you had a passive effect that said "after a character enters play, draw a card" and brought Tyrion out of Shadows, wouldn't you draw the card before you could use Tyrion's Response?

As written in the hypothetical, Tyrion survives until the end of the phase - same as it is now with Tyrion able to trigger his Response before the person using Dragon Skull can trigger the attachment's Response.

[Mathias Fricot 0]

Am I thinking about passives after claim? I'm not sure 

[Mathias Fricot 0]

nope im just not thinking

i was reading the wrong column of the flow chart lool 

[trumpets 0]

While we are at the topic of Dragon Skull what will happen if:

I have a The Red Viper (KotS) with 2 duplicates attached to it. My opponent has Dragonpit with many cards in shadow and he attached the Dragon Skull out of shadows on my TRV. He should die, so I discard a duplicate, but what happens next? I discard the other duplicate immediately and then he dies?

[Rogue30 60]

trumpets said:

 

He should die, so I discard a duplicate, but what happens next?

 

 

This situation is an example of terminal effect (character still dies after save). Rules forbid you to save in such situations unless you save character and remove terminal effect at the same time (e.g. Risen form the sea, Viserys).