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Misfortune. What rerolling really means

102 posts in this topic

 Let's take Immobility spell:

 

"Cast at the start of a character's turn, before he moves. If cast on a character, he is immobilised (may do nothing apart from negating this Spell with Counterspell) for the duration of that turn. If cast on a creature, it cannot be attacked but may be evaded until the end of the turn."

If you read this literally it is not playable for creatures...

But the example from the rules show it can be also used in the middle of the turn if cast on a creature. Author's intention was to eliminate the situations in which character would be immobilised during his turn (after some actions).

 

Sorry I'm at a loss, Why? Cast at the start of a characters turn target a character or a creature? Its not playable for creatures? are you saying the creature casts the spell or the spell cant target a creature?

If its the later (which I think you meant it to be) I do not see the prob.

 

Oh you mean the rule example on page 18 of the main rule book.. Giggles.. Yes this is obviously wrong they must of meant to say the sorceress casted immobility at the start of her turn then rolled and moved. I never noticed this before. Who knows if it was a misprint (fixed later on) or it just slipped through before pre-printing.

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Yes, I was just saying about this example from mail rule book. Note, if they would use Immobility in accordance to the spell text it should be cast on creature at the start of character's turn. But then Sorcerer could roll 1 for his movement and... spell would be wasted. 

I agree with Warlock that probably card had not enough space in the box for a full clarified text.
On the other hand I like Talisman for its simplicity. If we had over 100 pages FAQ we can lost in it. There are many questions on this forum which are clarified in rulebook or FAQ but they return from time to time. Of course some rules requires clarifications. Spell timing is always problem but I do not think they can easily solve it because text on cards won't change - some of them are problematic. There are many situations really difficult to choose a sensible solution but creation explanations for each card in FAQ would be a nonsense. Hence my suggestion to go in the second side and simplify what can be.
The same with Glimmer and Blink from Nether Realm and Bow from City. If you play closely to the card text you may use Bow (as it is not consider as an attack roll) when you attack Glimmer or Blink, which of course was not the intention of the designer - discussed on this forum.
Apart from that... rules clafification in itself, is on its way, interesting and fun. I hope each group of players has its own ideas and clarifications. Worse when such groups will meet each other :lol: .

Edited by Croonos

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Yes, I was just saying about this example from mail rule book. Note, if they would use Immobility in accordance to the spell text it should be cast on creature at the start of character's turn. But then Sorcerer could roll 1 for his movement and... spell would be wasted. 

I agree with Warlock that probably card had not enough space in the box for a full clarified text.

On the other hand I like Talisman for its simplicity. If we had over 100 pages FAQ we can lost in it. There are many questions on this forum which are clarified in rulebook or FAQ but they return from time to time. Of course some rules requires clarifications. Spell timing is always problem but I do not think they can easily solve it because text on cards won't change - some of them are problematic. There are many situations really difficult to choose a sensible solution but creation explanations for each card in FAQ would be a nonsense. Hence my suggestion to go in the second side and simplify what can be.

The same with Glimmer and Blink from Nether Realm and Bow from City. If you play closely to the card text you may use Bow (as it is not consider as an attack roll) when you attack Glimmer or Blink, which of course was not the intention of the designer - discussed on this forum.

Apart from that... rules clafification in itself, is on its way, interesting and fun. I hope each group of players has its own ideas and clarifications. Worse when such groups will meet each other :lol: .

Well as for the sorceress "yes" if she rolls a 1 she can't do it. But thats tough :) and its what fate is for anyways. She could wait until she is on the sential space or just cast it on another character at the start of their turn.

 

As for the bow and spells and effects that stop a player rolling a die for their attack roll that is a prickly one but I imagine its the same when the warrior gets assassinated by the assassin in effect.

 

I do not think its the intention of the designer to make the bows extra die roll "not considered a attack roll", why do you say such a thing? As far as I understood the bow is now considered a weapon, and anything that rolls a die to add to strength during battle "to my understanding" is called a attack roll adding together to make the attack score. Plus if it was "intended" to be such I think it would say? Like Misfortunes "No fate can be used".

 

If you could paste a link to the topic of the forum I could take a look :).

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The discussion about the Bow and Blink is here
 
http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/97384-bow-assassin-and-glimmerblink/?hl=blink
 
If you feel that topic requires some more discussion, you should continue there before going OT too much.
 
However, yours a good example of a hopeless argument about "designer's intentions" and personal interpretations, when the scenario is perfectly resolved applying the rules. The Bow (and Bolster Spell) are worded clearly and they say that the roll is added to the attack score. Blink says you cannot roll a die for your attack roll. The attack score is the result of Strength + attack roll + Bow/Bolster roll, so I don't think the designer's intent matters too much in this case. If no die had to be added to Strength, he should at least have worded Blink as the Assassin, whose wording has turned out rather unclear but at list leaves us in the doubt. Blink is super clear. Moreover, Jon New said that he's ok either way it is played, even though he meant the Blink to be attacked with bare Strength only.
 
Glimmer does not come into question, because the Bow is used only in battle and Glimmer fights in psychic combat. Bolster on the contrary works perfectly.

Edited by The_Warlock

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...

I agree with Talismanamsilat that you can use Moon Charm and Marked For Glory after Misfortune.

In Marked For Glory after always problematic first sentence "Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll" (which IMO can not be taken too literally), second sentence precise: "After rolling, you may add up to 6 to the result of the die roll".

 

IMO this makes no sense, I'd say it can and should be taken exactly as it is worded otherwise you are making a house rule.

In conclusion to the topic I'd still say that the only things that currently work are:

-Moon Charm (Warlock reward from The Sacred Pool Expansion)

-Gift of the Wild (Warlock reward from The Sacred Pool Expansion)

-Magic Lamp (Magic Object from The Firelands Expansion)

 

Other cards have to be used when you are about to make a die roll which you're IMO not. The die has rolled a 1 when the spell has been cast.

But sure, if you rule it like "the die will roll a 1 when I roll it" this allows for more cards to be used. I'd still say that this goes against resolving a spell before the next effect can come into play.

Edited by Nioreh

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...

I agree with Talismanamsilat that you can use Moon Charm and Marked For Glory after Misfortune.

In Marked For Glory after always problematic first sentence "Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll" (which IMO can not be taken too literally), second sentence precise: "After rolling, you may add up to 6 to the result of the die roll".

 

IMO this makes no sense, I'd say it can and should be taken exactly as it is worded otherwise you are making a house rule.

I see what you saying.. Marked For Glory cannot be used as a reponse to Misfortune because once Misfortune is cast it resolves and the die roll is rolled there is no time to use Marked For Glory before its cast and resloves. Yeah I will go with that. A house rule is needed if allowed.

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I think that every time I've discussed Talisman rules, the wording of the cards are scrutinised to the nth degree for interpretation as this (unless clarification from FFG) seems to be the way forward, so if I had these two cards:

Misfortune (Spell): Cast on any character who is about to roll a die. That die automatically rolls a "1" result and cannot be rerolled.

Lucky Charm: You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll. You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it."

 

My interpretation is that Lucky Charm bypasses the rolling of the die making Misfortune's target of forcing a 1 on the die roll invalid.  Therefore Lucky Charm wins.

 

 

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Misfortune says it cannot be rerolled. It is already "rolled" with a result of a 1. Lucky Charm is used when you are about to roll, so it's too late.

 

But on a side note, Lucky Charm is magically delicious. ;)  :ph34r:

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True, but the point is that Lucky Charm does not roll.  To put it another way, it says 'don't roll, use a value of 6 instead'.  This then ignores the target of the die roll whatever value it has (hence the 'instead of rolling it' bit).

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can't forget this important part: "when you are about to make a die roll" , it is important because this already occurred: "That die automatically rolls a "1" result and cannot be rerolled"

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can't forget this important part: "when you are about to make a die roll" , it is important because this already occurred: "That die automatically rolls a "1" result and cannot be rerolled"

Yep very true. Plus adding that once a spell is cast you cannot play any special effects or abilities until the spells effect plays out. The "About to make a die roll" has gone and the result is a "1". The whole thing comes down to the "cannot play any special effects or abilities until the spells" even though its not a rule written in the rules its very much implied and it fixes alot of other rule abuses. Unless you turn around and make a personal house rule over this card play or you say that card playing has some sort of reaction phase.

 

I don't think its "scrutinised to the nith degree for interpretation" I instead think its a fun game and lets just play and have fun instead of worrying about "who played what before who played what"!.

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When you are about to make a die roll only happens when the person picks up the dice (in the very ealiest definition) or when they fall out of his hand 'in the latest possibly interpretation.  Unless a card states that a die roll is not made, any interpretation must be made between those boundaries.

 

So if someone is casting spells at you, with the second spell being Misfortune, it can only take effect once the player picks of the die at the very earliest.  Until then, he can look at his cards for a defence.

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I give up with you Kalten. You refuse to listen to players who have been playing this game for many, many years. You obviously play other games where the rules are very different concerning timing and how cards play out. Talisman is not like those games at all. Maybe one day you'll admit that you are wrong...

Uvatha likes this

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...

My interpretation is that Lucky Charm bypasses the rolling of the die making Misfortune's target of forcing a 1 on the die roll invalid.  Therefore Lucky Charm wins.

 

Of course free you're free to house rule things any way you want but that's all you doing.. house ruling things. You are not following the simple English that's written on the cards and therefore not the game rules either (as several knowing people have pointed out to you).

You are just plain wrong. End of story.  :rolleyes: 

 

Edited by Nioreh

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Okay!  I'm happy to accept that I see things differently, but I've come across situations in the past where people collectively support one line of thought and sheep together, but are not necessarily right.  The point of these forums is to discuss these kind of issues.

 

Now one interesting point that Uvatha made was 'cannot play any special effects or abilities until the spells'.  Let's take this for example.  Imagine there was a new character card called Charmer who has 6 fate (and we don't care much about the rest).  He has a unique special ability which has the text 'whenever a die roll is required, you may instead choose to use your current fate level'.

 

Going by the above text, abilities can't be used.  So are you all saying that if someone has that ability he can't defend against a Misfortune made straight after another die rolling spell like Random and that the other person is way too fast for his own abilities?  I would disagree with that.

 

@talismanamsilat - I do listen - I listen a great deal, but no-one has provided a constructive argument as to why MisFortune takes effect when the card clearly states that Lucky Charm can avoid the roll.  The only exception to this being Uvatha whom I have provided a secondary dilemma.  It is not about not listening on my side.  And it is always interesting to see how the discussion would turn if different scenarios were presented.

 

Finally, it doesn't hurt to have different people's views and what they accept or don't accept as possible alternatives to overcome the problem whilst keeping the game fair.  Most of the solutions on these forums with regards to these simulatenous spells are purely opinions and house rules and nothing so far is a concrete solution.

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A Misfortune is the die roll.

In your situation the one who speaks first gets the green light; a player with a roll ability vs Misfortune.

But that is an issue many of us know is lacking in Talisman. It just doesn't seem right that the one who is quickest wins, but that's the rule.

And as others have said its fine to have house rules. My group has played many rules wrongly for a long long time, since the 80's. Finally my friend who has been playing with me has been playing Digital talisman and sees the merit of playing properly.

Misfortune is nasty. If you don't like it remove it from play. I have thought about it, but kept it in, because in general we play nice. But I have removed another card because I thought it too powerful.

The key thing your not getting is that Misfortune IS the die roll.

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Okay!  I'm happy to accept that I see things differently, but I've come across situations in the past where people collectively support one line of thought and sheep together, but are not necessarily right.  The point of these forums is to discuss these kind of issues.

 

I like to check these forums to see the doubts of players, propose mine and discuss possible solutions. I don't require anybody to believe what I say and I try to be argumentative as much as I can in my answers. This doesn't mean I'm always right in my thinking, or that I've an answer for everything; I just try to read into this game because I like to do it.

 

So, if you're willing to read more, I'll explain my idea one more time.

 

Most of the solutions on these forums with regards to these simulatenous spells are purely opinions and house rules and nothing so far is a concrete solution.

 

Simultaneous Spells. Let's begin from here. Are there really any "Simultaneous Spells" in this game?

 

Spellcasting rules from the base rulebook say only this:

 

Castings Spells is always optional. Players may keep Spells for as many turns as they like before they choose to cast them. A Spell can only be cast as stated on the Spell Card. Once a spell is cast and its effect has ended, it is placed on the Spell Card discard pile.

 

This is all what we have. Later on FFG added in the current FAQ that Spells need to have a valid target and that you cannot cast Spells for no effect, just to get rid of them.

 

The rules are not explicit but, unless you think that Last In First Out or other Magic the Gathering Spell casting rules shall be applied to every game featuring Spells, then these rules are not given and do not exist. When a Spell is cast, it shall be resolved completely. Other effects or Spells can be used afterwards, but always considering that the Spell has taken effect.

 

Exception: Spells that act against Spells, or can be used to alter Spells, are cast "in between". Why? Because this is just following the casting requirements, as instructed by the few rules about casting Spells.

 

The list of exceptions is very short. These are the Spells that can cancel/negate a Spell just cast, before it takes effect:

 

Counterspell

Spell Scorch

 

There are also Spells and effects that don't cancel a Spell but change its normal resolution:

 

Reflection

Hydra Spell

Spell Call

The Jin Blooded special ability

 

Besides that, nothing can interfere with a Spell that has been declared. By interfere I mean "nullify, negate, make it like it never happened", or if you prefer, handle it like the sentence "Once a spell is cast and its effect has ended, it is placed on the Spell Card discard pile." did not exist in the Rulebook.

 

Of course there are several ways to affect the results of a Spell, but after a Spell has taken effect the scenario has changed and an effect you've been planning to use might not be applicable anymore.

 

Example 1:

 

Player A moves the Reaper to Player B

Player A casts Misfortune on Player B (the Reaper's die is rolled, rolls a 1 and cannot be rerolled)

Player B is killed and cannot use his Lucky Charm because the condition to use it (when you're about to make a die roll) is not true anymore.

 

Vice versa

Player A moves the Reaper to Player B

Player B uses his Lucky Charm to choose the result on the Reaper chart instead of rolling

Player A wanted to cast Misfortune but cannot, because the casting condition (about to roll a die) is not true anymore (no die is rolled, but result is chosen instead).

 

Example 2:

 

Player A attacks Player B

Player B casts Freeze (Player A cannot roll the die for his attack roll)

Player A wanted to cast Marked for Glory but cannot, because the casting condition (when you're about to make a die roll) is not true anymore (he does not roll the die).

 

Vice versa

Player A attacks Player B

Player A casts Marked for Glory (adds up to 6 to a die roll he's about to make, which in this case is the attack roll)

Player B wanted to cast Freeze but cannot, because Marked for Glory is in effect and must be resolved fully (the roll has to take place for the Spell to be resolved). Misfortune could be used freely in this case (makes the die roll a 1, but the roll happens, so Marked for Glory is not negated).

 

I don't think there's any house rule or fancy interpretation in all of this. Simultaneous Spells do not exist, they are resolved one after the other in the order they are declared/activated.

 

The tricky part is to have some order when playing, but this is all up to the players' attitude or etiquette. However, being aware that there's no LIFO it's a good starting point. Once a Spell/ability has been used it must be resolved, and there are very few exceptions to the rule (listed above). Any subsequent actions shall consider what has happened, not ignore or overthrow it.

 

On the other hand, there are Simultaneous Effects, which are effects that share the same timing (trigger condition). They required a rule to be put into an order. For example a Druid with the Herbalist Follower landing on a Woods space may decide whether he's first gaining his full complement of Spells or healing 1 life. This has been clarified in the FAQ and has nothing to do with the topic of this discussion.

 

This is all I can say after looking into existing rules, if you find it useful. In any case you're free to play as you wish, if it improves your gaming experience.

Edited by The_Warlock

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Warlock, when you shared, "Simultaneous Spells. Let's begin from here. Are there really any "Simultaneous Spells" in this game?", it got me thinking and understanding where Kalten is coming from.

 

I think, he believes, each step or phase of a turn has no order or precedence, but is a step in and of itself. Thus his idea of simultaneous spells, and a "die roll phase". Thus he believes that the die roll phase consist of all possible spells and rolling, and abilities within that phase. And that somehow one would trump the other. Not sure how he would get a ruling for this, perhaps he hasn't and that's why he is here discussing this.

 

But it is needless to get into such depths, because Talisman turns do not work this way. One could create such steps, but rigorous house rules would need to exist and turns would last incredibly long as each player would have to decline to react in each "phase".

 

But if someone wants to do it, go for it. not my type of a game. Talisman is more about chances of chaos, than order. Its the gem of it.

 

Thus Talisman has the rule, the 1st one to announce an action/spell/ability or what have you, gets his thing done, and once its done, it can't be undone or altered except in the handful of exceptions you listed (Warlock).

 

Talisman isn't pretty, Talisman isn't strategic in such depths or manner. And thus it isn't fun for many when its pushed to play that way.

 

Don't get me wrong, I sometimes like games like that, such as Runebound.

 

Anyways, hopefully I have been able to address what I think is the core issue here.

Edited by DomaGB

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I think we have to step away from the "1st one to announce an action/spell/ability" even though thats the way its played I think every player needs a phase to decide what they are going to do.

 

With Misfortune and Lucky Charm the player with misfortune has to allow the Lucky Charm holder the oppotunity to use the Charm a simple "are you going to use your charm"? while holding the spell (hidden). Given this oppotunity players can't argue they didn't have due course, or even they forgot.

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When you are about to make a die roll only happens when the person picks up the dice (in the very ealiest definition) or when they fall out of his hand 'in the latest possibly interpretation.  Unless a card states that a die roll is not made, any interpretation must be made between those boundaries.

 

So if someone is casting spells at you, with the second spell being Misfortune, it can only take effect once the player picks of the die at the very earliest.  Until then, he can look at his cards for a defence.

Well a player cannot cast two spells at once. They can only cast one then wait and cast another (and only if it keys into a phase that happens in the spell card itself otherwise they have to wait until the spell resolves and is placed in discard pile).

 

When a player is about to roll a die is one of the key phases a player can cast a spell as a target. But all recourse has to be taken to allow players the oppotunity to use cards. Given that most of the time players will be unaware of a players having misfortunue they must think ahead and be ready for such a action. Of course if this is the first time you incounter misfortune there is not alot you can do about it.

 

Whoops sorry for double post..

Edited by Uvatha

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Now one interesting point that Uvatha made was 'cannot play any special effects or abilities until the spells'.  Let's take this for example.  Imagine there was a new character card called Charmer who has 6 fate (and we don't care much about the rest).  He has a unique special ability which has the text 'whenever a die roll is required, you may instead choose to use your current fate level'.

Whoops missed this..

 

Ok.. Maybe I sould of we-worded my statement more:

 

You cannot cast a spell in between a spell or effect unless it targets a phase in the effect or spell (eg Roll 1 Die). As in the spell casting targeting rule.

 

I should of made it plan so everyone understands the point.

Edited by Uvatha

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But it is needless to get into such depths, because Talisman turns do not work this way. One could create such steps, but rigorous house rules would need to exist and turns would last incredibly long as each player would have to decline to react in each "phase".

 

Exactly. I don't like the idea that "who goes first resolves first", but it's the only way to resolve the game within existing rules. I tried many times to find an alternative way to discipline turns and avoid problems with priorities, but they all ended up being too cumbersome or inadequate.

 

Thus Talisman has the rule, the 1st one to announce an action/spell/ability or what have you, gets his thing done, and once its done, it can't be undone or altered except in the handful of exceptions you listed (Warlock).

 

It's not a written rule by all means and this makes all discussions on this topic end up with either "Ok, I agree with you" or "No, I don't like your interpretation". But I say that if no rule is given to stack effects, why should effects be stacked, either with LIFO rules or any other priority rule imagined by the players?

 

For this reason we agreed upon a common behaviour when playing, which consists in declaring an effect/Spell loudly and then stop before resolving it, allowing people to react with a Counterspell or such, then with other effects. But, if you want to combine some other effect with the one you've just used, like for example casting a Toadify and immediately use your Lucky Charm, you're also entitled to declare it immediately after the Spell has been acknowledged (= no Counterspell or similar have been used). We agreed that it's fair to allow players to carry out coordinated plans in the rare cases when this is possible in Talisman. It also makes Counterspell, Reflection and the exceptions listed above more interesting and valuable.

 

This is of course a house rule, or our gaming group etiquette, if you prefer.

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I would go beyond that to seriously say its more than gaming group etiquette but the way the game was designed to be played. Of course we have not got anything in the rules.. But given what we do have its implied in my mind.

 

And with all that I think that puts all this "timing issues" to bed.

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