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rimmer3

Misfortune. What rerolling really means

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Misfortune (Spell): Cast on any character who is about to roll a die. That die automatically rolls a "1" result and cannot be rerolled.

What rerolling actually means?

Can you use fate and then the Cloverfield to choose a new result? If you do this, you actually do not reroll the die. You actually do not roll it.

Can you use fate and then Twist of Fate (Spell)?

Can you use Moon Charm (Reward): Keep this card. You may discard this card after rolling a die to change the die result into a 6 result. ?

Again. No rolling.

Or does "cannot be rerolled" mean just that you can't change the result in any way?

I think Misfortune is an overpowered spell so I personally wish I can do all these things to defend.

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Your questions are all very interesting. I think there are some ways to defend from the Misfortune Spell, but I need to check them point-wise:

Rimmer said:

Can you use fate and then the Cloverfield to choose a new result? If you do this, you actually do not reroll the die. You actually do not roll it.

I don't think you need to use fate. Fate implies a chance of re-rolling, no matter if you use the Lucky Charm and decide which result you score.

I think you can use the Lucky Charm to cancel the effect of Misfortune and choose the result anyway, since you're not re-rolling the die. I think also the Marked for Glory Spell can work this way. For this it's better to ask for official confirmation.

Rimmer said:

Can you use fate and then Twist of Fate (Spell)?

I'm afraid this is not allowed, since you need to spend Fate to cast Twist of Fate. If you spend Fate you're actually starting a re-roll process and I think this is what Misfortune is meant to prevent (no matter if you actually re-roll or not).

Rimmer said:


Can you use Moon Charm (Reward): Keep this card. You may discard this card after rolling a die to change the die result into a 6 result. ?

I think this works perfectly. It changes the result of the die without actual re-rolling.

 

Misfortune is a gruesome Spell, but it's not overpowered. Such Spells are a great danger for leading Characters and can result in sudden death, which is rather impossible by normal means. When people will get used to the presence of such Spells, I think they will become extra careful in their lingering on the board while they're more than Crown-ready. I like Misfortune for this reason, finally there's a Spell that can put a strong Character in real danger. In the Inner Region, the Misfortune Spell cannot hurt you, except if combined with other Spells (Vindication, Random).

By the way, if you have Misfortune you can keep it and use it in the Mines or Crypt. In some cases a 1 result is a lucky one...it's also an interesting result for the Judgement day ending, if you have too many chances to lose with a normal roll.

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The Misfortune Spell cannot be countered by using fate, a Lucky Charm, Marked for Glory or the Moon Charm. It can only be countered by a Counterspell or the Reflection Spell.

Ell.

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talismanamsilat said:

The Misfortune Spell cannot be countered by using fate, a Lucky Charm, Marked for Glory or the Moon Charm. It can only be countered by a Counterspell or the Reflection Spell.

Ell.

No way out then. It should have been written "and cannot be changed by any means".

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I don't like this ruling, it makes the spell way too powerful. At least you should have some ways out of this spell, I wouldn't like to be forced to keep a Counterspell the whole game just in case someone cast Misfortune on me.

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I'm really sorry guys I made a mistake with this question, having not read it properly. Upon further examination:

A Lucky Charm cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve changing the actual effect of Misfortune).
A Twist of Fate Spell cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve rerolling the die).

The Moon Charm can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve rerolling the die).
The Marked for Glory Spell can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve changing the result of the die roll).

Ell.

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Cards like Misfortune and Marked for Glory can be used when character roll a die. What happened when I can (or must) throw some more dice?
1) Can I use it in case of modified dice roll (i.e. by Riding Horse) to change the score of one of the dice?
2) Can I use it only in situation where I must roll 2 or 3 dice (like Temple or Mine/Crypt) to change the score of one of the dice? The same as Monk can use its abbility in Temple where he roll 2 dice: "After rolling the die when praying, you may add 1 to the score."
3) Can I use it only after I pay a fate for one die to change it's roll and then add it to the score (no matter if it was modified or standard 2 or 3 dice roll)?

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My opinion is that multiple dice rolls should be affected by such Spells just like they are affected by fate. Using Misfortune on your character in the Inner Region can be very useful sometimes. Of course, timing will be tricky if you cast them on another character and you can't pretend to see the result of one or two dice before deciding whether to cast the Spell or not.

 

Still there's a problem. Movement effects, on the contrary, do not to mix. The FAQ says you cannot use the Clockwork Owl if you choose to roll 2 dice with the Riding Horse or cast the Speed Spell; I suppose the reason behind the rule is that the Clockwork Owl says "up to your die roll" and if you roll 2 dice you fall outside that statement. By extension, you can't trigger the Magic Carpet, Troll regeneration, the Walking Stick/Gilded Compass, Amazon/Torch/Trailblazer effects, etc... but you may agree that it's very close to your original question.

 

I really hope that a FAQ will clarify such issues, they are as old as Talisman.

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My opinion is that multiple dice rolls should be affected by such Spells just like they are affected by fate. Using Misfortune on your character in the Inner Region can be very useful sometimes.

In accordance with current rules and FAQ it looks that this is the right way to play.

 

Natural vs. Modified Roll

If an effect or special ability refers to a die result, only the

number appearing on the die is considered, not the modified

result obtained by adding bonuses or subtracting penalties.

 

Interpreting this rule every natural roll (no matter if it is one die or multiple dice roll - as the Priest/Monk/Knight can modify 2 dice roll in Temple) can be modified. So I can use Misfortune or Marked For Glory in Temple or Mine/Crypt to change the result in one of several dice. Moreover a die roll can be modified many times as FAQ stated: "If a character has both the Haunt and Jester as Followers his attack rolls are reduced by 2 instead of 1." In this case character subtracts 2 different penalties from a die roll. The only restriction is that after modification you can not refer this result to benefit any effect or special ability.

Edited by Croonos

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If I choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling by using: Lucky Charm, Twist Of fate, Weighted Dice or even Misfortune (e.g. can I move Grim Reaper when I use Misfortune for my movement?) it is considered as a Natural or Modified Roll? In this case I am not adding any bonuses or subtracting penalties to a die roll but only choose it.

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I agree with Warlock. It's my opinion that the Magic Lamp cold also change the Misfortune spell as well since there is no rolling of dice. The Genie of the lamp makes the change for you. 

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I'm really sorry guys I made a mistake with this question, having not read it properly. Upon further examination:

A Lucky Charm cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve changing the actual effect of Misfortune).

A Twist of Fate Spell cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve rerolling the die).

The Moon Charm can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve rerolling the die).

The Marked for Glory Spell can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve changing the result of the die roll).

Ell.

 

 

Your questions are all very interesting. I think there are some ways to defend from the Misfortune Spell, but I need to check them point-wise:

Rimmer said:

 

Can you use fate and then the Cloverfield to choose a new result? If you do this, you actually do not reroll the die. You actually do not roll it.

 

I don't think you need to use fate. Fate implies a chance of re-rolling, no matter if you use the Lucky Charm and decide which result you score.

I think you can use the Lucky Charm to cancel the effect of Misfortune and choose the result anyway, since you're not re-rolling the die. I think also the Marked for Glory Spell can work this way. For this it's better to ask for official confirmation.

Rimmer said:

 

Can you use fate and then Twist of Fate (Spell)?

 

I'm afraid this is not allowed, since you need to spend Fate to cast Twist of Fate. If you spend Fate you're actually starting a re-roll process and I think this is what Misfortune is meant to prevent (no matter if you actually re-roll or not).

Rimmer said:

Can you use Moon Charm (Reward): Keep this card. You may discard this card after rolling a die to change the die result into a 6 result. ?

 

I think this works perfectly. It changes the result of the die without actual re-rolling.

 

Misfortune is a gruesome Spell, but it's not overpowered. Such Spells are a great danger for leading Characters and can result in sudden death, which is rather impossible by normal means. When people will get used to the presence of such Spells, I think they will become extra careful in their lingering on the board while they're more than Crown-ready. I like Misfortune for this reason, finally there's a Spell that can put a strong Character in real danger. In the Inner Region, the Misfortune Spell cannot hurt you, except if combined with other Spells (Vindication, Random).

By the way, if you have Misfortune you can keep it and use it in the Mines or Crypt. In some cases a 1 result is a lucky one...it's also an interesting result for the Judgement day ending, if you have too many chances to lose with a normal roll.

 

I don't think you are reading the Lucky Charm and The Marked for Glory cards properly.

"You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll. You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it."

"Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll. After rolling, you may add up to 6 to the result of the die roll."

You have to be about to make a die roll to use these and for that you would need to use fate, which you're not allowed to.

The only things that work that I can think of atm are:

Moon Charm and Magic Lamp

ps. Im soo looking forward to dark fate :D

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Goes back to the whole timing issue again like the Alciemcist and shops in the city. Players cant buy a magic item then turn it to gold then buy another one etc etc. They can only turn items to gold, buy items, turn items to gold.. You cannot interupt a game effect unless it says you can.

 

So Misfortune is casted before die roll, effect (if not countered) takes effect- die is considered to be rolled and its a "1" Effects that say "before a die roll" is made thus cannot be played. Effects that do not say "before a die roll" can...

 

The "Muiti-effects at same time rule" is only for effects that trigger at the same time.. eg "At the start of a players turn". When this happens the player who turn it is chooses what effect goes first.

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I'm really sorry guys I made a mistake with this question, having not read it properly. Upon further examination:

A Lucky Charm cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve changing the actual effect of Misfortune).

A Twist of Fate Spell cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve rerolling the die).

The Moon Charm can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve rerolling the die).

The Marked for Glory Spell can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve changing the result of the die roll).

Ell.

 

 

Your questions are all very interesting. I think there are some ways to defend from the Misfortune Spell, but I need to check them point-wise:

Rimmer said:

 

Can you use fate and then the Cloverfield to choose a new result? If you do this, you actually do not reroll the die. You actually do not roll it.

 

I don't think you need to use fate. Fate implies a chance of re-rolling, no matter if you use the Lucky Charm and decide which result you score.

I think you can use the Lucky Charm to cancel the effect of Misfortune and choose the result anyway, since you're not re-rolling the die. I think also the Marked for Glory Spell can work this way. For this it's better to ask for official confirmation.

I don't think you are reading the Lucky Charm and The Marked for Glory cards properly.

"You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll. You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it."

"Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll. After rolling, you may add up to 6 to the result of the die roll."

You have to be about to make a die roll to use these and for that you would need to use fate, which you're not allowed to.

My intention was not to state something but to hint at a possible interpretation, which is different from yours. Uvatha makes a good point about the timing of Spells and by this interpretation it's probably right to rule out Marked for Glory and Lucky Charm. It's a sound way to

 

Misfortune, Lucky Charm and Marked for Glory are all used when you are "about to make a die roll". If someone casts Misfortune on you, you won't be making any roll (you won't do the action of rolling) but the die automatically rolls a 1 (so the roll is not cancelled, but gives a predetermined result).

 

My idea was the following: since the roll is not cancelled, you might still play an effect that influences the roll, provided it is not a re-rolling effect. Marked for Glory could be played to add up to 6 to the die roll (which will give a 1 result automatically) and the Lucky Charm could be discarded to choose the result instead of accepting the 1.

 

I think these could be acceptable interpretations just like "no before rolling effects could be played", but they require an official clarification to settle things. The key is understanding whether Misfortune makes the roll happen or determines its result only.

 

A reason why they could receive a different ruling is this: when you play effects the other way  around (first Marked for Glory/Lucky Charm, then Misfortune), they have different precedences. Probably with the Lucky Charm you cannot cast Misfortune, because the result is chosen instead of rolling, but with Marked for Glory you could still say it's a 1 and then the player adds up to 6. What disturbs me it's that you cannot do the same when playing Marked for Glory after Misfortune.

Edited by The_Warlock

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I think it all goes down to a player trying to stop or counter Misfortunes effects, and lets face it its a very very nasty spell. But seriously if you were not going to use a "before a die roll" ability in the first place you should not be allowed to after Misfortunes effect.

 

I think limiting Misfortune to only 1 in the deck (forget how many are in there with all the sets).

 

On another note I'm wondering if a player can cast Misfortune on a Reaper.Werewolf roll? I know a player is rolling the die but most players say you cannot fate a Reaper,Werewolf roll? Now thats confusing...

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I think I removed Misfortune from my set, as its way too powerful and mean. My friend didn't and then I used it to show its power in a game the last time we played. I sent the Reaper on someone and cast Misfortune.

Everyone's eyes were opened. They now knew the power of that card and how I have info from being on this forum. I showed them this because of that power I removed it from my set, but they left it in and were impressed by its power rather than seeing it being too powerful.

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I've stopped using the Reaper since Misfortune was added, because characters began to die a bit too often, at least one per game. In that sense, the Prowling Werewolf was a welcome addition, since it has no instant death on a 1 result.

However, the combo Vindication + Misfortune tends to come up quite regularly in our games, and it's a dastardly action that requires the coalition of 2 players against one other. Also Random + Misfortune is quite bad for the victim, especially because it can also be used in a 2-player game!

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...

My idea was the following: since the roll is not cancelled, you might still play an effect that influences the roll, provided it is not a re-rolling effect. Marked for Glory could be played to add up to 6 to the die roll (which will give a 1 result automatically) and the Lucky Charm could be discarded to choose the result instead of accepting the 1.

 

I think these could be acceptable interpretations just like "no before rolling effects could be played", but they require an official clarification to settle things. The key is understanding whether Misfortune makes the roll happen or determines its result only.

...

 

 

Oh, I understand how you're reasoning now.
However I still think that is stretching it a bit, it should have read "That die will automatically rolls a 1.." etc in that case. And as Uvatha said, if you were not going to use a "before a die roll" ability in the first place you should not be allowed to after Misfortunes effect.

Also I would like to apologize for the incredibly annoying red text. I was merely trying to emphasize what I was making my remark on instead of quoting a really long comment but it turned out being nothing but hard to read and almost aggressive looking  :wacko:
Edited by Nioreh

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Oh, I understand how you're reasoning now.

However I still think that is stretching it a bit, it should have read "That die will automatically rolls a 1.." etc in that case. And as Uvatha said, if you were not going to use a "before a die roll" ability in the first place you should not be allowed to after Misfortunes effect.

Also I would like to apologize for the incredibly annoying red text. I was merely trying to emphasize what I was making my remark on instead of quoting a really long comment but it turned out being nothing but hard to read and almost aggressive looking  :wacko:

 

I think you guys made a good point about Misfortune and probably that's the correct way to handle it. The Spell settles the die result immediately when it is cast, and this will rule out all other "about to roll a die" effects. Even though this makes Misfortune really difficult to counter, it rules out most of the debates it can raise. Possibly another FAQ entry on this matter would be ok, but you're probably on the safer side with your interpretation.

 

No problems for the red text, at least from my side. It is a good idea. It's bit difficult to read, so I would take FFG layout as an example and use light blue text instead.

Edited by The_Warlock

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Ok but generally I think that Talisman is rather simple game. Precise examination of wording on every card may lead to a dead end... For example Immobility spell where wording on the card is different from the use of stated in the rules.

I agree with Talismanamsilat that you can use Moon Charm and Marked For Glory after Misfortune.

In Marked For Glory after always problematic first sentence "Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll" (which IMO can not be taken too literally), second sentence precise: "After rolling, you may add up to 6 to the result of the die roll".

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Ok but generally I think that Talisman is rather simple game. Precise examination of wording on every card may lead to a dead end... For example Immobility spell where wording on the card is different from the use of stated in the rules.

I agree with Talismanamsilat that you can use Moon Charm and Marked For Glory after Misfortune.

In Marked For Glory after always problematic first sentence "Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll" (which IMO can not be taken too literally), second sentence precise: "After rolling, you may add up to 6 to the result of the die roll".

 

Trying to get my head around this myself. This all comes down to spells timing and effects surely if Misfortune is casted then no other effects or spells can be cast until Misfortunes effect is over (unless its a counterspell etc etc) So any spell or effect that says "Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll" Cannot be played becuase the die roll has been rolled..

 

And then lets say Misfortune doesn't count as making the die "count as" rolled, then every effect that allows a player to cast at "Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll" would be allowed to have a effect?

 

So its either one or the other?

 

I don't think you can just ignore the first sentace of a spell or effect and then go with the second sentance? The first sentace is to do with spell targetting!, I think it has to be taken literally until there is some-other ruling.

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I don't think you can just ignore the first sentace of a spell or effect and then go with the second sentance? The first sentace is to do with spell targetting!, I think it has to be taken literally until there is some-other ruling.

In absence of Spell casting rules clarifications, which were never given officially, Spells are resolved one after the other. If Misfortune is cast first, it takes its full effect before any other effect or Spell can be played.

My doubt was about Misfortune having the effect of "making" the die roll, not only setting the result to 1. After some discussion, I think the Spell wording is clear enough to be sure it fixes the die roll to 1 and makes it happen as well. You won't be able to use any "before rolling" effects, then.

The problem of Spells being cast one after the other is old and weary. There will always be players that think they can play LIFO, or that interpret Spells case-by-case. In my experience, wording in Talisman is the only way to understand how to resolve unclear situations, or to spot situations that cannot be settled without a FAQ or a house-rule. Don't throw away sentences because they seem to be the cause of the problem; you'll find another situation where this will not be acceptable for everyone and arguments will arise. I recommend you to play Spells carefully, and do not get used to play Spells or "at any time" effects in response to Spells, except for Counterspell and Reflection, or when the card you're using specifically mentions the current scenario. Always allow a Spell to be resolved first, then check if you can do something. This is actually a simple rule, not another attempt at overcomplicating things.

Edited by The_Warlock

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Ok generally I agree with your way of thinkink but... Talisman is a familly game (also for older children) and my point od view was that not every word has a great importance. Sometimes I just try to predict what was going to use the card by the authors/playtesters without over-complicating. Let's take Immobility spell:
 

"Cast at the start of a character's turn, before he moves. If cast on a character, he is immobilised (may do nothing apart from negating this Spell with Counterspell) for the duration of that turn. If cast on a creature, it cannot be attacked but may be evaded until the end of the turn."

If you read this literally it is not playable for creatures...
But the example from the rules show it can be also used in the middle of the turn if cast on a creature. Author's intention was to eliminate the situations in which character would be immobilised during his turn (after some actions).

When someone cast a Misfortune, you can still consider that this is your phase in which you are about to make a die roll. As with simultaneous effects the player whose turn lasts decides which effect is first. Of course this is only my opinion, some situation cleared FAQ for others we have to wait but generally I try to simplify. The same with Valkyrie resurrect abbility (apart from the situations when the exact word "kill" is used) I play that Follower is killed only in situation where a Character may also lose a life.

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I've heard many definitions in the years: family game, beer & pretzels game, roll-and-move-and-see-what-hit-you game; a lot of enthusiasm and an equal amount of hate. I can say I've played it with about 40 different persons in completely different situations, and discussed things on these forums with many others, and everyone had a different feeling of Talisman. There are players who are satisfied with the theme, others that play only for winning; there are persons that prefer to interpret the rules, others that analyze word-by-word; some gamers house-rule every situation as they like, others want an official answer to the slightest doubt.
 
Don't get me wrong, I think Talisman should play smoothly without so many rules constraints. But the game we have now is very different from the Revised 4th Edition published in late 2008. The more cards you add, the more interactions you have, so trying to interpret the designer's intents becomes more difficult as expansions follow each other. Surely the current Immobility Spell does not work as intended, but while some players may try to figure out the "intended use", or just play it as it was in 2nd or BI 4th edition, others will get stuck and won't understand the example in the Rulebook. The card unfortunately had not enough room to host the required text! I hope we'll get an errata for it after 6 years.

If everybody was in the mood of simplifying things, surely we won't need an updated FAQ, but there are so many Q&As lost in these forums that I can hardly imagine how the FAQ could be compiled. In my games, when something is unclear we always stop for a while and discuss the matter. If we had no rules to refer or words to analyze, I don't think we would ever get on. Interpretation is used only when we cannot find an applicable rule or wording. A FAQ would help us a lot, even a forum digest would be ok.

Yesterday I played a game with my wife and she wanted to use Dragon's Blood after rolling the dice for combat. I had to remind her of a rule that doesn't come up very often, but it's there: you must apply effects that modify Str/Cft before dice are rolled. Even if the Blood can be used at any time, she could not use it after seeing how bad she rolled. She complained a bit and I apologized for never explaining that rule to her, but you know, it never came up like that in 50+ games! Some fixed reference helps a lot with the ever increasing variety and complexity of Talisman.

With Spells the natural inclination is to cast them as required, like Interruptions in Magic the Gathering; unfortunately, Talisman rules for casting Spells are very basic and the current set of Spells is advanced. If you're not careful, you may discover that the Spell you've cast cannot be cast at that point. This is particularly irritating, because you've already revealed the Spell to everybody. I hate those kind of situations. Then ok, in the absence of comprehensive Spellcasting instructions, everybody is entitled to play as he sees fit for his games.

Edited by The_Warlock

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