Reek and end of the challenge

[Rogue30 60]

Suppose Reek was attacking alone and challenge was unopposed. After I trigger his response challenge ends. Am I correct that's similar to Rhaegar, i.e. proceed to the end of the framework window, no more responses allowed?

[FATMOUSE 0]

How does triggering Reek's ability end the framework action window?  Rhaegar ends the round, which is why the framework action ends.  I feel like I'm misunderstanding something about your question.

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

Suppose Reek was attacking alone and challenge was unopposed. After I trigger his response challenge ends. Am I correct that's similar to Rhaegar, i.e. proceed to the end of the framework window, no more responses allowed?

Reek's text:

Response: After you win an I challenge in which Reek participated as an attacker, give the defending player control of Reek to choose and take control of 1 character controlled by that player.

And I assume you are thinking about the following from the FAQ:

(3.28) Changing Control Mid-Challenge
If a character participating in a challenge
changes control during that challenge, that
character is removed from the challenge. If
said character was the only character in the
challenge, the challenge ends.

If that character was the only attacker or
defender, that player's STR during the challenge
is considered to be zero. All players may
trigger effects or pay costs as long as there is
at least one other participating character.

Which is further explained and elaborated on by the following:

(3.33) No Characters in a Challenge
If, at any time after a challenge begins and
attackers are declared, there are no participating
characters in that challenge, the challenge
ends immediately without resolution.

 

So in your situation, Reek wins the challenge unopposed. The challenge resolves. During Responses, Reek changes control, removing him from the challenge. The challenge no longer has any characters in it, so it should end. If ending the challenge means jumping to Step 6 and closing the "resolve challenge" framework window, there should be no more Responses. That's what you are getting at here, right?

Looking at the two FAQ entries, there is a little room for confusion because the further clarification from the "No Characters in a Challenge" entry, specifies that the challenge ends without resolution. In your situation, challenge resolution has already happened. If it hadn't, Reek couldn't have triggered his effect in the first place. So while the challenge undoubtedly ends (both rules say so), the question becomes whether the "Resolve Challenge" framework window ends prematurely or not as a result.

I would say it doesn't. The entries specifying that removal of the last character ends the challenge duration do not talk about ending the current action window. For example, if I used Toll Gate to remove your attacker, the only participating character, from the challenge, the challenge certainly ends. But does the action window end immediately at Step 3 with Toll Gate's resolution? Or even at Step 4 (since the "end challenge" rules are probably passive game effects rather than continuous effects)? Don't you have an opportunity to Respond to the character standing or being removed? I'd say so, because even though challenge duration ends, there is no indication that the action window does, too.

Rhaegar's "end the round" text specifically jumps the timing structure ahead, but these rules about ending the challenge when there are no participating characters do not. So I would say that game play continues as normal, just with the "duration of challenge" status changed, no matter when the character is actually removed.

So in your situation, I'd say that rather than jumping ahead to Step 6 of the "resolve challenge" framework window in order to end the challenge, the challenge duration simply ends in the Step 5.IV of resolving Reek's ability. And all "until the end of the challenge" durations would end, too. However, the framework action window is still open and any other applicable Responses can still be played. Just keep in mind that since the challenge is over, there are no participating characters, no "attacking player," no "defending player," or anything else that requires an ongoing challenge duration.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

However, the framework action window is still open and any other applicable Responses can still be played. Just keep in mind that since the challenge is over, there are no participating characters, no "attacking player," no "defending player," or anything else that requires an ongoing challenge duration.

Yeah, seems logical.

Challenge resolution framework belongs to the challenge (you skip it in case of Toll gate example), that's why I thought about ending it immediately. And I also thought that's possible that current FAQ doesn't anticipate such situations (i.e. "mid-challenge" may be not "after resolution"), although, funny thing, I just realized that such situation was possible long ago with good old Honor Guards.

[Uncle Joker 0]

Rogue30 said:

Suppose Reek was attacking alone and challenge was unopposed. After I trigger his response challenge ends. Am I correct that's similar to Rhaegar, i.e. proceed to the end of the framework window, no more responses allowed?

Rogue30 said:

Suppose Reek was attacking alone and challenge was unopposed. After I trigger his response challenge ends. Am I correct that's similar to Rhaegar, i.e. proceed to the end of the framework window, no more responses allowed?

If you mean the Challenge ends immediately, then the dying cards will keep in play.

For example, I use Reek alone to attack the opponent by intrigue.

And it was unopposed, then I played "Condemned by the Council" to discard one of his location.

Then I use the ablity of Reek, then the challenge ends immediately. But the location is still in play.......

So I think we should keep on going until all the dying cards leave play.

[Rogue30 60]

Uncle Joker said:

then the dying cards will keep in play.

No, that's why I said "proceed to the end of the framework window". If you kill Rhaegar, he's not staying in play.

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

Challenge resolution framework belongs to the challenge (you skip it in case of Toll gate example), that's why I thought about ending it immediately.

Yeah, I get that. I was trying to make sure that bit was clear in my own reasoning as well. What it largely comes down to is what we said: while the end of the challenge resolution framework normally marks the end of challenge duration, it doesn't have to. The end could come from another source, but you would still have to end any action window in which the outside effect ending the challenge happened. 

Rogue30 said:

And I also thought that's possible that current FAQ doesn't anticipate such situations (i.e. "mid-challenge" may be not "after resolution"), although, funny thing, I just realized that such situation was possible long ago with good old Honor Guards.

It may not. Or more to the point, FFG may not have anticipated it. The FAQ doesn't anticipate everything and, just because it was possible with the old Honor Guards doesn't mean it was anticipated or planned. Of course, the "without resolving" part may have anticipated these sort of possibilities, too.

[Mathias Fricot 0]

Here is my two cents:

For Reek to trigger his response he has to have won the challenge already, so the winner has already been determined.  Thus by the time resolution occurs (after that player action window closes) the "challenge" in itself is already done. The challenge phase, and the framework actions (Determine winner of challenge, Challenge result is implemented, Reward for unopposed challenge is awarded, Renown is rewarded), are not.

The FAQ says that if there are no characters in a challenge it ends without resolution. I take this to mean that there is no winner of the challenge, so no result is implemented, so no reward for unopposed challenges, and no renown. I look at it as a "fizzle" of the framework action; it still goes through the motions, but nothing happens. In the same way that here the resolution has already occurred, that cannot change. So the "challenge" per say is already over, we are at the point of responding to that determination and going through the rest of the framework. Based on this, I would conclude that the challenge remains resolved (Reek's original controller as the winner), and the rest of the framework action takes place as such.

Imagine how crazy it would be if it was after you won a military challenge, then you would have to worry about the timing of claim so that he doesn't get killed by your own successful challenge.

That said, couldn't you just wait until after Challenge Result is Implemented (or even Renown is Awarded) to trigger Reek's ability? Then you don't need to worry about it? I forget how long you have to respond within a framework action...

Thats all I have to say about it.

 

[ktom 598]

Mathias Fricot said:

For Reek to trigger his response he has to have won the challenge already, so the winner has already been determined.  Thus by the time resolution occurs (after that player action window closes) the "challenge" in itself is already done. The challenge phase, and the framework actions (Determine winner of challenge, Challenge result is implemented, Reward for unopposed challenge is awarded, Renown is rewarded), are not.

(...)

That said, couldn't you just wait until after Challenge Result is Implemented (or even Renown is Awarded) to trigger Reek's ability?

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Reek cannot trigger his ability (a Response) until all the framework actions (determine winner, implement challenge result, award unopposed, award Renown) are complete. You can't play Responses to anything that happens in challenge resolution until all those things have been completed (as well as any passive effects that are activated by the resolution of the challenge).

You also run into a little bit of trouble by saying the "challenge" in itself is already done as soon as the winner is determined. If the challenge is over, there can be no participating characters. If there are no participating characters, how do things like Deadly or ALPHD (which target participating characters after a challenge resolves) work?

So it's not that you "just wait until after Challenge Result is Implemented to trigger Reek's ability." You MUST wait until then to trigger his ability.

 

 

[Mathias Fricot 0]

I just went through the FAQ (again, the the nth time). I thought you could respond to any part of the framework as its going through, but the only Responses possible during that are save/cancel ones (like Compelled by the King; Response: If an opponent would win dominance, cancel the dominance count. You automatically win dominance this phase).

So what was the issue here? By the time Reek's ability can be played everything (Renown, Claim, Unopposed, Passives) has already resolved. Is it just whether or not attacking with Reek alone and then using his ability will stop anyone else from playing responses because it might end the challenge from his change of control? If thats the case, I hope I understand this correctly:  the challenge would not be over... but there would be no characters (or players) in the challenge. So anything that needs characters in the challenge to be used (Like Heart of the Kingdom to give +1 Str) would have no targets. And you couldn't use something like Pickpocket since there are no more attacking and defending players. But you could still use any other ability that would normally be used during the challenges phase that doesn't target based on those characteristics. Like the new Jack-Be-Lucky's "Response: discard 1 card from your hand to draw a card."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ktom 598]

Mathias Fricot said:

So what was the issue here? (...) Is it just whether or not attacking with Reek alone and then using his ability will stop anyone else from playing responses because it might end the challenge from his change of control?

Yes. That was the issue.

Mathias Fricot said:

If thats the case, I hope I understand this correctly:  the challenge would not be over... but there would be no characters (or players) in the challenge. So anything that needs characters in the challenge to be used (Like Heart of the Kingdom to give +1 Str) would have no targets. And you couldn't use something like Pickpocket since there are no more attacking and defending players. But you could still use any other ability that would normally be used during the challenges phase that doesn't target based on those characteristics. Like the new Jack-Be-Lucky's "Response: discard 1 card from your hand to draw a card."

Your understanding is correct, but you'll probably need to think up some different examples. Heart of the Kingdom is a standard "Challenge" phase effect, so you couldn't use it once the challenge started resolving anyway (Reek-inspired weirdness of not). And Jack-Be-Lucky's ability is a Dominance phase ability, not a Response, isn't it? (As you have the text printed here, it isn't actually Responding to anything...).

The Pickpocket example is good, though. If you put Pickpocket on Reek and attack with him for Intrigue, have the challenge go unopposed, then trigger Reek's Response first, he is removed from the challenge, which is then technically over because there are no participating characters. You could still trigger the Response on Pickpocket - because you are still in the Response opportunity for "after you win an intrigue challenge in which the attached character participated" - but there would be no defending player to take gold from. You'd have to use the "from the treasury" option. 

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

You could still trigger the Response on Pickpocket

 

If the challenge ends then there is no participating characters, right?

EDIT: Nevermind.

A character is only considered to have participated
if they remain in the challenge through
its resolution.

[ktom 598]

Yeah. It's a verb tense thing.

[Rogue30 60]

So to summarize: in above scenario I can use Pickpocket ("participated"), but I can't use Robb Stark ("participates").

Normally, i.e. if character is excluded before resolution, I can't use neither (no memory rule), right?

I think that designers really didn't anticipate this, with all that wording differences (looks like the intent was the same - I mean, once you get to resolution there is memory). What about The Tower of Joy?

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

So to summarize: in above scenario I can use Pickpocket ("participated"), but I can't use Robb Stark ("participates").

 

Normally, i.e. if character is excluded before resolution, I can't use neither (no memory rule), right?

I'm not so sure about the Robb example. For example, if you had an effect that said "Challenges: Choose and stand a direwolf character. Only use the effect if Robb Stark participates in a challenge this phase," you could use that after the challenge with Robb was over, couldn't you?

 

But yes, if the character is participating when the challenge resolves (ie, you go through the 4 framework events of the "resolve challenge" framework window), it is considered to have "participated" and, as far as I can tell, you won/lost a challenge in which that character "participates." If it is removed before the "resolve challenge" framework window, it is never considered to have been a participating character at all.

The verb tense I was thinking of was more the difference between "in which attached character participated" and "in which attached character is participating." That is probably the answer to Tower of Joy, by the way. It refers to winning a challenge with fewer "participating" characters than your opponent. In order for there to be "participating" characters, you must be within the duration of a challenge. Further, the Tower kills a character controlled by the "losing opponent." Once the challenge duration is over, there isn't a player with that status, so there aren't any legal targets. (After the challenge duration is over, you can be considered to have "won/lost a challenge as the defender," but I don't think you can be the "losing" opponent.) So I think it's safe to say "Tower of Joy" will not work outside of a challenge duration.

Rogue30 said:

I think that designers really didn't anticipate this, with all that wording differences (looks like the intent was the same - I mean, once you get to resolution there is memory).

I doubt they anticipated it, either. Old timers like me also recognize the fact that a lot of the wording differences come from the fact that many of the Core Set cards are reprints of very early cards - from before the template patterns really became set - that were not updated for whatever reason. But just because the designers probably didn't anticipate it doesn't mean the rules can't handle it.

 

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

Further, the Tower kills a character controlled by the "losing opponent."

Yeah, I've missed this.

ktom said:

Old timers like me also recognize the fact that a lot of the wording differences come from the fact that many of the Core Set cards are reprints of very early cards - from before the template patterns really became set - that were not updated for whatever reason. But just because the designers probably didn't anticipate it doesn't mean the rules can't handle it.

Ok, but some new cards are written "is participating". I just have the feeling that they should be treated interchangeably - I mean there are a lot of examples with "participated" and with "participating" too.

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

Ok, but some new cards are written "is participating". I just have the feeling that they should be treated interchangeably - I mean there are a lot of examples with "participated" and with "participating" too.

I agree that as far as passives or Responses go, "participated," "participates" and "is participating" seem pretty interchangeable.

However, I'm not too sure that in the end, "participated" and "is participating" should always be considered interchangeable. It isn't hard to picture the terms used in play restrictions. For example, you can see a clear difference between an attachment that says "If attached character participated in a challenge this phase, this card gains..." and one that says "if attached character is participating in a challenge, this card gains...." This point is kind of moot right now because I don't think this sort of thing is used as play restrictions on any current card - only passives and Responses where they act pretty interchangeably.

[Mathias Fricot 0]

But with things like Tower of Joy, if your not using it in that particular challenge, how far after it would it still be okay to trigger it? the first player action window after? the second? It gets tough to draw a line. 

In that last example ktom would your ability of "if attached character participated in a challenge.." be activated (passively or as a response) while the character is in a challenge? or would the entire challenge have to be resolved first before they can be considered to 'have participated'? So the 'is participating' vs 'participated' and 'when participates' can make a difference

[ktom 598]

Mathias Fricot said:

But with things like Tower of Joy, if your not using it in that particular challenge, how far after it would it still be okay to trigger it? the first player action window after? the second? It gets tough to draw a line.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that Tower of Joy is a Response - thereby limiting "how far after" would be OK much more than any reading of the words "participated," "participating," "lost" or "losing" ever will. You can only use it in the "resolve challenge" framework window. Everything else is outside the opportunity to trigger the Response.

We're talking about a very, very narrow set of circumstances here whereby a challenge ends after Step 3 of the "resolve challenge" window but before Step 6 of the same window. There is no need or reason to generalize to challenges that end their duration under normal circumstances.

Mathias Fricot said:

In that last example ktom would your ability of "if attached character participated in a challenge.." be activated (passively or as a response) while the character is in a challenge? or would the entire challenge have to be resolved first before they can be considered to 'have participated'? So the 'is participating' vs 'participated' and 'when participates' can make a difference

That was, indeed, the point. The entry in the FAQ specifically says that for a character to gain a status of "participated" (past tense), they have to go through a challenge resolution. If they are declared and removed before then, they are not considered to have participated in a challenge that phase. However, the fact that they can be removed from the challenge means that there is a "participating" state for them to be removed from. So "participating" and "participated" can make a difference.

There is little to no functional difference between things like "Response: after you win a challenge in which attached character participated..." and "Response: after you win a challenge in which attached character is participating...". Note that the interchangeability there has more to do with the "Response" and "after you win" restrictions than with the form of the word "participate," though.

Because, thanks to that FAQ entry, there is a very large functional difference between things like "Response: after you win a challenge, choose a participating character..." and "Response: after you win a challenge, choose a character that participated in a challenge this phase...". The first only lets you choose characters that were a part of the resolution of the challenge you won. The second lets you choose any character that was part of the resolution of any challenge to that point in the phase.

[Moneylender 0]

I´m amazed how coplicated things here got.

Since I´m struggling to grasp the above to the fullest, I´ll just ask THE ONE important rule question concerning reek:

Does thepart of his ability that he is removed from the challenge prevent triggering a "dubious loyalities" attached to him, after winning the challenge and changing controll,  to get reek back under your controll?

 

Card text:

Response: After you win a challenge in which attached character participated take control of attached character if it is not under your control.

[ktom 598]

Moneylender said:

Does thepart of his ability that he is removed from the challenge prevent triggering a "dubious loyalities" attached to him, after winning the challenge and changing controll,  to get reek back under your controll?

Card text:

Response: After you win a challenge in which attached character participated take control of attached character if it is not under your control.

No. It would not. Resolution of the challenge is over, so he is considered to have participated in the challenge. The fact that he was removed from the challenge by his own control change (whether that technically ends the challenge or not) does not change whether or not he "participated" in the challenge as defined in the FAQ because the challenge has already resolved. The Reek/Dubious Loyalties combo works just fine.

[Moneylender 0]

Thanks for clarifying!

It seems to me that this combo is somewehere very close to the "too good to be allowed" cap of card intereactions, but still on the good side because Reek himself is prone to a great amount of character control. For me It´s just great having such combos in the game!

 

[Darksbane 82]

Almost any deck should be able to stop Reek, 1 STR is killer and Intrigue isn't exactly Stark's strong suit.

[Rogue30 60]

I've just realized that I'm not sure when Disgruntled Mercenary passive ability triggers. The same with Hidden Vale Pass. In above scenario it would be passive triggered by Reek's switch side. What about normal situation? Step 4: passive abilities in resolution framework window?

BTW Nate confirmed what ktom said about "participated" and "is participating" in Reek scenario.

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

I've just realized that I'm not sure when Disgruntled Mercenary passive ability triggers. The same with Hidden Vale Pass. In above scenario it would be passive triggered by Reek's switch side. What about normal situation? Step 4: passive abilities in resolution framework window?

Text on Disgruntled Mercenary:

"Return Disgruntled Mercenary to its owner's hand at the end of the first challenge initiated each round."

 

Text on Hidden Vale Pass:

"Any Phase: Kneel Hidden Vale Pass to put a Clansman character into play from your hand, knelt as an attacker during any challenge you have initiated. At the end of the challenge, discard that character from play if it is still in play."

 

Consider this in terms of a phase ending. Passive effects that happen "at the end of the phase" happen in Step 4 of the "end phase" window, even though Steps 4 and 6 of that window are technically still during the phase. Think also about "placed in the dead/discard pile" effects. They happen when the card is still physically on the table in moribund. Essentially, as soon as the "end" becomes inevitable and unavoidable within the action window, the passive happens or the Response opportunity opens.

The timing of these "at the end of the challenge" passives is in Step 4 (Passives) of the "resolve challenge" framework action window. Once Step 3 takes place and the challenge resolves, the challenge is going to end when the window closes - whether the odd situation happens with Reek or not. So we are "AT the end of the challenge" and the passives apply. (So note that Disgruntled Mercenary will be moribund even before Reek can trigger his Response.)

If it helps conceptually, grammatically speaking you can be "at" the end of something before the full duration has run. If you are "at the end of your rope," you are not necessarily off the rope.