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Light vehicle damage vs. heavy vehicle damage

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"If the opposing players most potent armor and/or 88 flak gun units are eliminated in just that one action phase, the rest of the round will be of little matter, unless the scenario has been structured so that time is more important than enemy units destroyed."

But why would you put your only potent asset in a position to be eliminated in the first round of the game? Either poor gaming, or weak scenario design.


"If the enemys main firepower component is removed early, its simply mop up time after that."

I agree - that is how you most often win the game. Any number of situations can bring that about, including luck, design and poor play.


Your idear of a tiered kind of Move&Fire makes some sense. Though perhaps the reduction ought to be a bit more severe than -1, -2 or -3. The problem with shooting on the move is not realy penetration, but acutaly hitting anything.

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VanCamper said:

Since I have been using the +1 AF/unit added in Combined fire, I have found the game much more challenging and can design scenarios with German side being outnumbered 5:1 , and Tiger 1s and 88 flak guns survive longer and inflict more losses.

 

 

I see you have been using what I suggested in another post, I have found this to be very effective too. Yet i only use it when v's armour i leave combine fire against squads the same as ToI base rules (do you?)

All scenarios i make use this ruling

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Hefsgaard said:

Your idear of a tiered kind of Move&Fire makes some sense. Though perhaps the reduction ought to be a bit more severe than -1, -2 or -3. The problem with shooting on the move is not realy penetration, but acutaly hitting anything.

Just to put it out there but i could also see movement and fire being just that, not only firing while on the move but as the rules seem to represent a squad moving to a new location and then firing.

for example lets say a turn represents 10 mins if a squad fires for its action it spends 10 mins firing away (all of its firepower)

or then lets say it dose a move and fire, spends 5 mins moving and then another 5 mins firing (so therefore it ends up with half its fire power)

anyway just another way of looking at it. but i agree that firing while on the move needs to be represented somehow.

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Aussie_Digger said:

 

VanCamper said:

 

Since I have been using the +1 AF/unit added in Combined fire, I have found the game much more challenging and can design scenarios with German side being outnumbered 5:1 , and Tiger 1s and 88 flak guns survive longer and inflict more losses.

 

I see you have been using what I suggested in another post, I have found this to be very effective too. Yet i only use it when v's armour i leave combine fire against squads the same as ToI base rules (do you?)

All scenarios i make use this ruling

 

 

 

The thing is about Combine Fire, is that it really should be limited to 3 units and requiring 1 action for each unit. Thus after the CF, the active player has expended all his actions and it becomes the opposing players action phase.  That allows the defending player the chance to move his unit, if not immobilized, in his action phase, and execute a Fire and Move action as well, then move back out of LOS of other units . IMO, this is better than allowing an unlimited no. of units to fire using just one action, which seem IMO to violate the basic concept of the 3 actions/phase alternating back and forth between players.

If limited, then use +1AF/ Sherman, and +2AF/M10.  Thus,  3 M10s= 14 ,. 2 M10s, and 1 Sherman= 13,  1M10 and 2 Shermans= 12, and 3 Shermans = 11. This way a Tiger either gets hit by a single attack of 14 max, or may take 3 separate 10 AF or 8 AF attacks. Either way, the odds are not significantly different., and not overkill, and the Tiger has a chance to retreat, Fire and move, and get out of LOS of 3 more enemy tanks that would have been able to CF again in the opposing players  same action phase using a second action, if the original CF rule was used. And it works well both in the typical 3:1 and 2:1, or 3:2 scenarios, as well as a 5:1 also.

For infantry, no need to really change the half AF rule, but  the 3 unit max per active players action phase might be applied in infantry vs infantry combat as well if executing a CF attack and should be applied if used in combination with at least one tank involved.. Besides, infantry have the assault move too.

There is also the transport of infantry in halftracks that should allow an assault move (not sure how the rule works as is) with the infantry loaded, as the halftrack is a fighting platform designed for such an attack. The way the rule is now, an infantry squad must expend 2 pts to load, then another 2 pts to unload, and no attack allowed from infantry added to halftracks while loaded.

So I have tried allowing halfrack and squad in same hex at start of action phase, the option to move together as one unit, using one action, declaring an assault move, allowing both to move half the mp of the halftrack to advance to a hex adjacent to an enemy infantry squad. and no extra action needed to execute the assault. The AF of the half track is added to the AF of the squad in the assault. If the HT and squad moving as one unit gets Op fired, the squad is considered loaded, and the attack is on the halftrack. If the HT gets destroyed, the squad is not auto destroyed, but instead ,a 6 sided die is rolled with 1-4   = no. of casualties. 5-6=0, so there is 33% the squad is not hit at all, about 50% of variable 1-3 casualites, and 17% of total destruction. Same can be applied for truck transportation, except 5-6 = destruction, so 50% chance of elimination, and 50% of 1-3 casualties. And Trucks are not allowed to assault move, only transport. 

 

 

 

 

 

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VanCamper said:

 

 

So I have tried allowing halfrack and squad in same hex at start of action phase, the option to move together as one unit, using one action, declaring an assault move, allowing both to move half the mp of the halftrack to advance to a hex adjacent to an enemy infantry squad. and no extra action needed to execute the assault. The AF of the half track is added to the AF of the squad in the assault. If the HT and squad moving as one unit gets Op fired, the squad is considered loaded, and the attack is on the halftrack. If the HT gets destroyed, the squad is not auto destroyed, but instead ,a 6 sided die is rolled with 1-4   = no. of casualties. 5-6=0, so there is 33% the squad is not hit at all, about 50% of variable 1-3 casualites, and 17% of total destruction. Same can be applied for truck transportation, except 5-6 = destruction, so 50% chance of elimination, and 50% of 1-3 casualties. And Trucks are not allowed to assault move, only transport. 

That is actually a nice idea for an Operations Card for troops trained in that sort of assault, such as Panzergrenadiers. I would not allow this generally, but only for troops trained to assault from their vehicles.

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Halftracks are allready quit potent in assaults move, which is how I enjoy using them.  You move your halftrack next to the target, use a fire and movement action if you can, then next action you assult with the squad with support from the halftrack.  Its allways fun to see the reaction of your opponent when doing this: did you, did you do that? could you assult that MG squad this turn???

 

When it comes to combined fire, I think its the most  difficult when a large amount of shermans trys to take out a tiger at long distances. Combined fire versus a anti-tank gun is not that big of a deal. If you fire at an anti-tank gun with 3+ tanks seperatly it will most probably be destroyed anyway. But versus though targets, it does matter.  If combined fire was limited to half normal range (ie 2 for squads, 3 for shermans) that would definitvily help in the situations where combined fire is strange.  Limiting the range would also effectively limit the number of partisipants. And 3 hexes is quit short, so manouvering would become more important. I would realy love to try that rule in the bloody omaha scenario.

 

I like the ide about being able to move a short distance (1 or two hexes) and fire at almost full firepower.

 

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Hefsgaard said:

Not that it varies much from normal game. Move&Fire HalfTrack(with Squad mounted) next action Squad Assaults. The Halftrack is for providing firesupport not breaching buildings :-D

The most significant difference is that any Op Fire hits the halftrack and not the assaulting infantry. Also, the halftrack's firepower is added to the assault attack roll, very handy when you do not have too many infantry squads in the vicinity of the target.

You also save some actions for mounting/dismounting.

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KlausFritsch said:

 

Hefsgaard said:

 

Not that it varies much from normal game. Move&Fire HalfTrack(with Squad mounted) next action Squad Assaults. The Halftrack is for providing firesupport not breaching buildings :-D

 

 

The most significant difference is that any Op Fire hits the halftrack and not the assaulting infantry. Also, the halftrack's firepower is added to the assault attack roll, very handy when you do not have too many infantry squads in the vicinity of the target.

You also save some actions for mounting/dismounting.

 

 

 

The +2 instead of +4 in firepower does not change much (the change is not significant enough and simpler rules could be made for same effect), but if you can mount and assault same turn that would be a nice for specially trained infanteri.

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Am I reading the Assault Move rules the wrong way?  My original TOI rulebook concerning the Assault move, says only other squads(without heavy weapons) may support a squad which has declared an assault move. And only squads, not HTs, are allowed to initiate an assault move., nor may HTs support the active players assault, only the defending player is allowed HT support, if an HT happens to be in same hex .

 An HT that uses a Fire and Move action, is not a CF attack, so other units cannot support the HTs attack, including a squad it may be transporting. So thats why I propose a  "Mechanized" Assault option, to allow an attacking HT and squad beginning the turn already in the same hex, to move together up to 1/2 of HFs mps to a hex adjacent to an enemy squad and assault that hex using just one action.

So here is an optional way to integrate Trucks and HTs to provide transportation, by being "attached" to the squads or AT gun unit (At gun and squad together), by classifying the combination as either a Motorized unit, or a Mechanized unit, which may execute a "Tranport Action" (both), or a Mobile Fire and Move, or Mobile Assault action, if a Mechanized unit.

 Definitions:

1. Motorized unit= 1 or 2 infantry squads, MG, or Mortar squads, or 1 AT gun unit(gun +squad), and 1 truck beginning turn occupying the same hex.

2. Mechanized unit= 1 infantry squad,, 1 Mortar or MG squad, or 1 AT gun unit, and 1 Halfrack or 1 Bren carrier beginning turn occupying same hex

Transport Action:

 ( Motorized and Mechanized)  Truck or HT and squad(s)/AT gun, move together using full mps of Truck or HT, and then all are fatigued at end of movement, OR, the unit moves up to 1/2 the Mps of Truck/HT, and passengers are then unloaded and placed in Op fire mode. Truck is always fatigued at end of movement, but HT if using 1/2 mps, is then placed in Op fire mode along with squad.

Mobile Fire and Move Action: (Mechanized only)

Mechanized unit may move 1/2 mp of Halftrack, (rounded up) then may fire using 1/2 AF of HT + 1/2 AF of passenger. or may fire first, then move 1/2 mps. After which, at end of action, both HT and passenger are fatigued (and passenger is considered unloaded). The attack may be a ranged attack up to the normal range of passenger squad or AT gun unit.

Mobile Assault Action: (Mechanized only)

 If HT is only loaded with regular infantry, elite, and/ or officer squad, the HT and squad may move together, 1/2 the HTs mps, (rounded up) to a hex adjacent to enemy unit, and conduct an Assault using full AF of HT combined with full AT of squad. If other friendly squads are already adjacent to enemy hex, they may add 1/2 of their AF to the attack total.

Additional notes:

There is no need to use the transport markers, as the truck /Ht and squad / AT units are moved together as one unit, using one action. At the beginning and end of the movement, the passengers are considered unloaded. Only during the movement of the unit, is passenger considered loaded, therefore, only an Op fire attack would be able to attack the passenger as loaded in transport.

If attacked by Op fire, the attack is executed on the truck or HT only, and if the HT or truck is destroyed, a 6 sided die is rolled to determine if squad or AT gun with squad gets destroyed. For Trucks: 1-4 = that number of casualties, 5-6 all passengers (&AT gun) destroyed. For HTs:1-4 = that no. of casualties, while 5-6= no hits. Once the HT or truck is destroyed, if squad/AT gun unit survives, it is placed in Op fire mode, unless action was a Transport action using more than 1/2 of carriers mps., in which case the squad is fatigued.   

If Truck of HT is only damaged, the motorized unit, or mechanized unit does not roll for casualties, but may continue it current action to conclusion.

With regard to Mortar squads loaded in HTs, making them in effect a Mechanized Mortar unit: The HT and Mortar (may be double mortar on one base), move together in a Fire and Move, using 1/2 mps of HT, then Mortar squad may conduct 1/2 AF attack still using indirect fire, at any unit in normal (but not long) range. Or vice versa, Fire at 1/2 AF at normal range only, then move with HT together up to 1/2 mp of HT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I dont have the rules at hand right now, neither did I have them when I posted.  I have allways assumed that light vehicles may SUPPORT an assault, if they are adjacent to the hex being assulted, and I think it atleast supposed to be like this. Heck, even a tank should be able to SUPPORT an assault. What I find is strange is that even fatigued units may support the assult. Leading the assults however is a totaly different matter, which should be done by a none-heavy weapon infanteri.

Allthough the assault rules are rules which I allways have to check, so I will check them again tonight.  I might very well be mistakken.

 

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Well, it makes sense to me to allow HTs to support an assault, but the way the tranport rules are written, you have to expend at least 2 actions to transport and then unload a squad, and then the HT, not being a squad, is not allowed to support.

So it seems to me that there should just be a Transort Action added to the list, and then an HT or Truck can be designated with such action requiring the 2 pt expenditure from the HT/Truck to load or unload a squad, and then also stil allow the HT/truck to move , using just the one action. The squad /AT gun transported would not be able to move after being unloaded, but is fatigued or is placed in Op fire mode, depending on if the carrier expended more than 1/2 of its mps or not, in performing the Transort action.

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VanCamper said:

Well, it makes sense to me to allow HTs to support an assault, but the way the tranport rules are written, you have to expend at least 2 actions to transport and then unload a squad, and then the HT, not being a squad, is not allowed to support.

It makes sense to me as well where troops specifically trained in such tactics are concerned. I would make that an Operations Card.

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 Trucks : they should be auto destroyed or captured, just by moving an enemy unit next to them. If loaded, truck and passenger(squad) is destroyed. If AT gun limbered too, then the AT gun is auto captured, or destroyed also, by moving players choice. .

And trucks cannot capture objectives.

Trucks may not capture or destroy enemy trucks however, and are blocked from entering the hex the enemy truck occupies. If the moving truck is loaded with squad, and unloads the squad, the squad may then auto destroy or capture any  enemy truck or trucks in any adjacent hexes, as part of the same action., by expending 2 mps, and then squad is fatigued.

 

 

 

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VanCamper said:

Trucks : they should be auto destroyed or captured, just by moving an enemy unit next to them. If loaded, truck and passenger(squad) is destroyed. If AT gun limbered too, then the AT gun is auto captured, or destroyed also, by moving players choice. .

And trucks cannot capture objectives.

Trucks may not capture or destroy enemy trucks however, and are blocked from entering the hex the enemy truck occupies. If the moving truck is loaded with squad, and unloads the squad, the squad may then auto destroy or capture any  enemy truck or trucks in any adjacent hexes, as part of the same action., by expending 2 mps, and then squad is fatigued.

I would not allow any auto-destruction in adjacent hexes, but I agree that trucks should not be able to capture anything. They alone also should not block movement but be forced to retreat to an adjacent hex if any enemy units (other than trucks or other unarmed transports) want to enter their hex.

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But I do agree that to the general concept that trucks can be used to gamey.  Their use as intended is far more limitied compared to the gamy version: ie used to spot for mortars/artellery, take objective, waste actions...

 

Thus the truck should be strengthened as a supplier, and weakened in other aspects. Idees for how to use trucks:

-trucks may exit boards for command point

-cuppled to supply. The truck 'carry' either a HEAVY weapon OR a specilization. And can be sent offboard for more

-out-of-ammo scenario where trucks are needed in order to allow the forces to take fire action again.

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Sounds like there needs to be a lot of extra operations cards to be added., to cover all these issues, especially concerning AT guns, and whether they are separate vehicles or are equipment trait that is different from vehicle trait.

I do not like the way the AT gun is considered as a vehicle with armor value, for target purposes, as Tanks can then shoot at them from longer ranges, with higher AS. If AT gun could be considered as the same trait as an infantry squad, but still provide maybe +2 cover, the Tanks would have to use their lower AS and range factor similar to engaging infantry squads. And limiting the Combined Fire to normal range, would then make it necessary for  enemy units to get closer to the AT gun before it could be effectively engaged, which IMO, is more realistic, as AT guns were easier to camoflage and except for the 88 flak gun, were more difficult to spot at first.

And light AT guns should be allowed to be moved by squad into entrenchments, by expending +2 mps,which really represent both improved sandbag positions, and slit trenches combined. 88 flak guns would require a halftrack to move  88 flak gun into a hex and then unlimbered with squad onto a entrenchment marker.

An 88 flak gun and or ATguns could start the game, however, already on an entrenchment marker, or maybe on a fortification marker. If in a fortification, however, the 88 flak guns arc of fire should probably be limited to 3 hexes with a hex designated (with mark on the fortification)  as the "front" hex postion. (ie. 180 degree arc). This might apply for the light AT guns also, but not sure, since some bunkers had 360 degree openings, through which a smaller AT gun could probably shoot thru.

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