Can non-Space Marines contribute to and benefit from Cohesion?

[guest469 2]

I am thinking about a Deathwatch KillTeam with an normal human Inquisitor attached to it. The Inquisitor is the Military Tactician type and has Commonlore: War, Talented Command+20, Air of Authority etc

[decPL 0]

I'm having a similar issue in my sessions. My idea is that initially no - the SMs are sharing a bond which cannot be duplicated by someone they barelly know. After some time this will probably need to be discussed (but I'd rather have the role-playing as input for this decission, not some fixed timepoint).

[Peacekeeper_b 5]

decPL said:

I'm having a similar issue in my sessions. My idea is that initially no - the SMs are sharing a bond which cannot be duplicated by someone they barelly know. After some time this will probably need to be discussed (but I'd rather have the role-playing as input for this decission, not some fixed timepoint).

That is silly "bond" that cannont be duplicated? While Im sure "teamwork" and "empathy" is part of it, Im also certain military bearing, training, knowledge and experience are also part of it.

I will almost guarantee that the coheseion rules return in print again in the Only War Dark Heresy supplement for the use of human troops.

So yeah, go ahead, let the big I help out.

[Ariolan 0]

It would be very interesting indeed to relate the "can't do" argument to the vote against female SM on one of the endless threads. Could point to real-life consequence of something that started fluffy......

[Ariolan 0]

Pardon me, OP. What I was trying to say: by all means, let him (or her?) participate in the tactics and let the wild rumpus begin ! As an aside, in the old and venerable Privateers & Gentleman, that could be awarded ultimate fluff hardcore status, the designer grants license to "wreak havoc upon the world with creations like Rear Necromancer of the Blue", so if in a historic seafaring RPG the designer lets us do these things to his babies, my guess would be that you can go as wild as you want on the 40K franchise....

[ItsUncertainWho 3]

Peacekeeper_b said:

decPL said:

 

I'm having a similar issue in my sessions. My idea is that initially no - the SMs are sharing a bond which cannot be duplicated by someone they barelly know. After some time this will probably need to be discussed (but I'd rather have the role-playing as input for this decission, not some fixed timepoint).

 

 

That is silly "bond" that cannont be duplicated? While Im sure "teamwork" and "empathy" is part of it, Im also certain military bearing, training, knowledge and experience are also part of it.

I will almost guarantee that the coheseion rules return in print again in the Only War Dark Heresy supplement for the use of human troops.

So yeah, go ahead, let the big I help out.

I would learn toward no, non-space marines can't contribute or benefit from cohesion. DW space marines have, at the minimum 50+, years of training in small unit tactics, which is where the squad abilities come from. For an outsider to be able to contribute to that, or benefit from it seems strange. 

I might consider a talent to allow a non-space marine to benefit from squad abilities. I don't think I would allow non-Astartes to contribute though.

A quick pass at a talent for this:

Astartes Squad Tactics Training
As a rare and near singular individual, you have gained the respect and trust of the Adeptus Astartes in battle.

This talent allows you to join an Astartes unit in Squad mode as if you were a Space Marine. You gain the benefits of any codex squad mode ability that is used by the squad at the cost of 1 additional point of cohesion. If you have the Peer (Adeptus Astartes Chapter [x]) talent, you may gain the benefit of that Chapters squad mode abilities, if a Battle Brother from that chapter is a member of the squad and activates a chapter specific ability. This also costs 1 additional point of cohesion.

If you have the Enemy Adeptus Astartes Talent and one of the Squad members is from that Chapter, you may not join in squad mode.

Cost 2000 xp
Requirements: GM’s Option Only, suggested prerequisites Common Lore: War +10 and Forbidden Lore: Adeptus Astartes +10, Peer (Adeptus Astartes)

[Peacekeeper_b 5]

It is not uncommon for anyone in service of the Imperium, especially an Inquisitor to have 50+ years of experience. Look at Eisenhorn, loook at Commissar Cain.

[guest469 2]

There exist the skills : Lore, Scholastic (Codex Astartes)

As a Scholastic Lore skill, it could technically come free with "Infused Knowledge". 

Tactica Imperialis might cover some of it too.

[decPL 0]

Peacekeeper_b said:

decPL said:

 

I'm having a similar issue in my sessions. My idea is that initially no - the SMs are sharing a bond which cannot be duplicated by someone they barelly know. After some time this will probably need to be discussed (but I'd rather have the role-playing as input for this decission, not some fixed timepoint).

 

 

That is silly "bond" that cannont be duplicated? While Im sure "teamwork" and "empathy" is part of it, Im also certain military bearing, training, knowledge and experience are also part of it.

I will almost guarantee that the coheseion rules return in print again in the Only War Dark Heresy supplement for the use of human troops.

So yeah, go ahead, let the big I help out.

To me, after reading the description, team cohesion in DW represents not only 'training' / 'teamwork', but it's also part of 'misticism' of being warrior-monks created from gene seed originating from the emperor - hence my opinion. Obviously YMMV.

[Xalendar 18]

 I would allow it depending on the case :

- An unknown guy just passing by => no, even if he or she is a powerful and well trained badass inquisitor, commissar, etc..

- A well known respected servant of the imperium who already worked with the kill team many times shall be able to be part of it. It can be someone far more humble than an inquisitor, like an assassin belonging to the ordo xenos for example. The only restriction from my point of view is to be part of the ordo xenos.

"For he to-day who sheds his blood with me, shall be my brother"

[Kage2020 0]

Why not turn things on their head a little bit in attempting to answer this question for yourself (since it's unlikely that you'll get universal agreement )?

If, as suggested above, Cohesion is yet another manifestation of how awesome the MArnies are then, well, there's not a lot that you can do.  On the other hand, if it represents unit integrity borne out of training, experience, and unit dynamics?  Consider the circumstance in which one of the Marines of the squad is killed.  He's replaced with another Marine.  Would that Marine contribute to the unit's Cohesion?

And if it is experience and training based, perhaps akin to the training protocols of special forces personnel, why wouldn't they get Cohesion?  

The answer is probably in between the two extremes, though.  Being MArnies probably means that they would get more awesome Cohesion abilities than any mere elite stormtrooper unit. 

Of course, with that said, what about the "unit" of Acolytes that have been operating together for years in a manner, as mentioned above, to Eisenhorn or Ravenor's "warband?"

Just one or two more thoughts.

Kage