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ARISATO2

pre-Heresy marines in Deathwatch as a Black Shield. Crazy idea?

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Greetings, fellow players.

I've been a loyalist pre-Heresy marines ever since I read HH books, especially "Galaxy in Flames" some time ago.

Recently, I've read the fluff section about the Deathwatch book describing "Black Shields," which is something like "I'll fight for you as long as I live if you don't question about me." (reminds me of the "Nightwatch" in the Song of Ice and Fire series). And I thought "Oh my, how should I make pre-heresy marines."

 pre-Heresy marines have walked and fought with the Primarch(s), and possibly even with the Emperor, and actually saw how they acted (unlike almost-mythified version of story which present Marines hear). They acted based on the Imperial Truth (cold logic, there-is-no-god-ish idea, everything-can-be-explained-by-science, etc) that is quite different from present Imperial doctrine...and other interesting concepts which I can't think of all right now.

Well, I think it will be a great and unique opporunity to RP pre-heresy marines in present 40k universe. Little-different point of view from present marines (more rational?), How they act when they meet their 10000-years old "bretheren" they fought together as the Emperor's warrior before, "I know that guy" like moment when the kill-team is researching about the things from the past, and gradually telling the secret as they become to trust his "new" bretherens...

Problem is, I can't really make the fluff about "How did they survive 10000 years," "What were they doing for that time," and "how did they found about this Black Shield" - kind of fluffs that's good enough to convince my GM. I would have to device Black Shield's Chapter Traits and Demeanour later too...

Can any fellow players advice me? Well you can laugh at my crazy idea, but any thoughts (better if its possitive) are appreciated

 

 

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Arisato said:

Greetings, fellow players.

I've been a loyalist pre-Heresy marines ever since I read HH books, especially "Galaxy in Flames" some time ago.

Recently, I've read the fluff section about the Deathwatch book describing "Black Shields," which is something like "I'll fight for you as long as I live if you don't question about me." (reminds me of the "Nightwatch" in the Song of Ice and Fire series). And I thought "Oh my, how should I make pre-heresy marines."

 pre-Heresy marines have walked and fought with the Primarch(s), and possibly even with the Emperor, and actually saw how they acted (unlike almost-mythified version of story which present Marines hear). They acted based on the Imperial Truth (cold logic, there-is-no-god-ish idea, everything-can-be-explained-by-science, etc) that is quite different from present Imperial doctrine...and other interesting concepts which I can't think of all right now.

Well, I think it will be a great and unique opporunity to RP pre-heresy marines in present 40k universe. Little-different point of view from present marines (more rational?), How they act when they meet their 10000-years old "bretheren" they fought together as the Emperor's warrior before, "I know that guy" like moment when the kill-team is researching about the things from the past, and gradually telling the secret as they become to trust his "new" bretherens...

Problem is, I can't really make the fluff about "How did they survive 10000 years," "What were they doing for that time," and "how did they found about this Black Shield" - kind of fluffs that's good enough to convince my GM. I would have to device Black Shield's Chapter Traits and Demeanour later too...

Can any fellow players advice me? Well you can laugh at my crazy idea, but any thoughts (better if its possitive) are appreciated

 

Let the kill-team rescue the fellow from the Warp.

 

Alex

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The idea has some obvious problems.

If the marine has been in the warp for 10,000 years he's very likely (almost certainly) corrupted by it either physically or mentally, or both.

Marines can will themselves into suspended animation thanks to one of their implants, however the Codex Astartes book states the longest time a Marine has been in suspended animation and successfully woken (they can't wake themselves) is about 600 years iirc. Also, more importantly perhaps, having a pre-Heresy Marine who has been in suspended animation the whole time since kinda defeats the object.

The warp does spit ships out occasionally at wildly different times to when the ships went in. So that's an option ... but again 10,000 years seems a VERY long time for a warp-time distortion. 

Not all modern (40K) marines are religious and supersticious btw, many Chapters still do not believe the Emperor is or ever was a God. 

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Crazy idea - yes, but then some of the best ones usually are gran_risa.gif

How has he survived 10,000 years? Well you could use a little science (and an idea shamelessly inspired by an incident in Starship Troopers [book]) and have the survivor on a warship that had suffered damage and could not shutdown its plasma drives, the rest of the crew evacuated but a lone marine stayed to keep it on course away from the Imperial fleet;  and it has just kept accelerating at full thrust, eventually reaching a high percentage of light speed; the marine triggered his sus-an membrane to await rescue (or the reactors finally exploding). Now thanks to time dilation when a Deathwatch vessel finally docks to examine the ancient wreck, he only thinks a few decades have passed when in fact 10,000 have gone!

Or something like that...

DW

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Adam France said:

 

The idea has some obvious problems.

If the marine has been in the warp for 10,000 years he's very likely (almost certainly) corrupted by it either physically or mentally, or both.

Marines can will themselves into suspended animation thanks to one of their implants, however the Codex Astartes book states the longest time a Marine has been in suspended animation and successfully woken (they can't wake themselves) is about 600 years iirc. Also, more importantly perhaps, having a pre-Heresy Marine who has been in suspended animation the whole time since kinda defeats the object.

The warp does spit ships out occasionally at wildly different times to when the ships went in. So that's an option ... but again 10,000 years seems a VERY long time for a warp-time distortion. 

Not all modern (40K) marines are religious and supersticious btw, many Chapters still do not believe the Emperor is or ever was a God. 

 

 

 

He may have been only 1 day in the warp (warp time) but outside of the warp 10,000 years may have passed. Unusual but possible. The Righteous Path from the starting scenario in RT has been vanished for such a long time too. As a player I don't know the full background of that but it seems possible.

 

Alex

 

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Well there was one Fallen fellow who claimed that He and other fallens were true loyalists and the Lion was just wating for the winner of the Heresy...He somehow survived for 10000 years, I think due to the warp storm of sort when Caliban destroyed.

13th company is still alive in EoT, but kinda mutated....or became what is in there gene, kind of.

Need.....more....ideas!

and thanks for the replies, all

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The novel Soul Hunter also has a rather... extreme temporal distortion involved.  It seems that the exceptional idea of large temporal distortion has become the BL version of Pratchett's "one in a million chance." ;)

Generally speaking, though, it seems that you can pull almost any idea out of any genre that you want when it comes to the 40k universe.  Wormholes, cryogenic suspension coupled with princesses in crystal bikinis with horns coming out of their head-wear all of which is protected by giant man-tigers... You know, the usual.  The lesson that normally comes from these types of background is that when they become the norm then they might also become a tad on the tiresome side.

"Oh, I see.  So this time your character is the twentieth son of the twentieth son of a Primarch, which means their powers are rekindled in you... And you have a sword called Damocles.  I mean, again!?"

Might be worth thinking about.

In reference to the character concept itself, it seems that there is going to be a lot that is going to surprise or otherwise rub them the wrong way about the modern Imperium, not least of which is the idea that the whole place has gone to hell-in-a-handbag and the Emperor is being worshipped as a god despite the Imperial Truth.

On the other hand, a rebel Marine might be going, "So, that Horus guy really wasn't barking mad..."

Kage

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Kage2020 said:

The novel Soul Hunter also has a rather... extreme temporal distortion involved.  It seems that the exceptional idea of large temporal distortion has become the BL version of Pratchett's "one in a million chance." ;)

Generally speaking, though, it seems that you can pull almost any idea out of any genre that you want when it comes to the 40k universe.  Wormholes, cryogenic suspension coupled with princesses in crystal bikinis with horns coming out of their head-wear all of which is protected by giant man-tigers... You know, the usual.  The lesson that normally comes from these types of background is that when they become the norm then they might also become a tad on the tiresome side.

"Oh, I see.  So this time your character is the twentieth son of the twentieth son of a Primarch, which means their powers are rekindled in you... And you have a sword called Damocles.  I mean, again!?"

 

Agreed. Otoh, sometimes you have a pretty neat idea and any rationalization will do. This kind of warp distortion is of course only the first idea that comes to mind. Other ideas would include stasis fields, experimentation by the Ordo Chronos (time travel anyone?) or technology of one xeno allies (gasp) used. Much more leborate rationalizations can be crafted but in the end it will always be just that.

 

Kage2020 said:

Might be worth thinking about.

In reference to the character concept itself, it seems that there is going to be a lot that is going to surprise or otherwise rub them the wrong way about the modern Imperium, not least of which is the idea that the whole place has gone to hell-in-a-handbag and the Emperor is being worshipped as a god despite the Imperial Truth.

On the other hand, a rebel Marine might be going, "So, that Horus guy really wasn't barking mad..."

Kage

BLAM-BLAM-BLAM. gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

Alex

 

 

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He could pop out of the omega vault from being in a stasis field.  He could even be a Nightlord or something that's in the Deathwatch armor.  He could definitely have counter ideas to "normal" marines, but still not really be heretical, probably just not think the emperor is as great as everyone else thinks (but still believe in the imperium).

Would certainly shake up the interaction between marines.

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FatPob said:

the dark angel chap in Angels of Darkness was pre heresy, so it is more then possible

The Fallen are a very, very special case of temporal distortionsas the Ruinous Powers themselves intervened to scatter them across space and time.

 

That's not "oh Warp shenanigans!".

 

That's freaking demigods taking a direct interest in the mortal realm and bending it to their own ideas.

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Suijin said:

He could pop out of the omega vault from being in a stasis field.  He could even be a Nightlord or something that's in the Deathwatch armor.  He could definitely have counter ideas to "normal" marines, but still not really be heretical, probably just not think the emperor is as great as everyone else thinks (but still believe in the imperium).

Would certainly shake up the interaction between marines.

In this particular setting, I'm also a fan of the Omega Vault approach. However, anything that comes out of that vault probably isn't going to be allowed to just "walk around" without some serious poking and prodding from the whole Imperium to confirm what/who/why it's there. It could prevent the player from ever doing anything.

Either run with the Omega Vault idea, or Alpha Legion Black Shield. After all, they are still loyal to the Emperor... just not  the Imperium. Could get VERY interesting. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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I like the example of Watch Commander Israfil being the only Black Shield to reach this rank, who was "lost in a mission he attended in person... Despite the intervention of a substantial battle group from the Dark Angels Chapter, Israfil's body was never recovered..."

My reading of this is that he was a Fallen Dark Angel, and the Dark Angels turned up to have him removed. This wouldn't be unlike the Dark Angels, who seem to have destroyed the Black Templars' vessel, the Ophidium Gulf, in order to capture a Fallen (Cypher?).

Sure, I think that most Black Shields aren't Fallen, but the core rulebook leaves it hazy so that the idea has potential. Besides, playing a Fallen Black Shield saves worrying about stats; just use Dark Angel stats. 

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Well you could back story the Omega Vault, where he came out a while ago and already poked and prodded him a bunch and didn't find anything.

Or he has some vital info on the next series of missions, ala he has been to those places back in time pre-heresy.  The Nightlords were there in Jerico before helping conquer the whole place.  He was put in stasis especially for this (although as far as he knows, he was just volunteering, no actual knowledge of the future events he is supposed to help with, just some order needing someone with good knowledge of the whole sector).

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Kanluwen said:

FatPob said:

 

the dark angel chap in Angels of Darkness was pre heresy, so it is more then possible

 

 

The Fallen are a very, very special case of temporal distortionsas the Ruinous Powers themselves intervened to scatter them across space and time.

 

That's not "oh Warp shenanigans!".

 

That's freaking demigods taking a direct interest in the mortal realm and bending it to their own ideas.

Just because the fallen in the book was caught because he took over a planet and massacred millions, it doesn't mean they are all like that, it's more then feasible for one to make the way to the DW as a blackshield.

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I was just thinking the pre heresy Marine and the psyker in the book Lords of Night would make an interesting RP combo.

He is the real deal, evil, calculating but not a chaos pawn.

 

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I think it's a great idea. Alpha Legion fits perfectly for a less "loyal" marine, especially if it's a heretic trying to worm its way into the command structure...

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Clearly the character was part of the company that were expunging the planet ruled by the mysterious Chronodukes during the Crusades. During the fighting he follows one into an innocent looking Arbitrator Vox Cubical only to find himself catapulted through time. Without The, now dead, Professor he time crashes at random and steps out into the 41st millenium.

Really though, I can't see it being a long played character, even the 'don't ask, don't tell' attitude of the DW towards the Black Sheilds is only going to go so far. If it's obvious he's from the pre-heresy era then he's likely to be carted off rather left to do some xeno hunting. They are highly likely to just take him out if he starts rocking the boat to much, possible disected. At best they might think he's irrevocably insane, was the Blood Angels that often think they've seen Sanguinus (or even think they are Sanguinus) during the Black Rage?

it might be best to have some form of amnesia and base the campaign around slowly revealing the history with a shocking and final conclusion.

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 The whole storm warden old first company is maintained in stasis field since quite some time. The stasis field technology seems pretty "common" in W40k (common for powerful organizations like the inquisition) to keep away from time various things. Your pre-heresy marine was part of a project founded right after the siege of Terra, during the founding of the inquisition. Maybe he volunteered to be a valuable source of information in time of needs.

I don't think you need chrono-warp-esoteric-unlikely events to bring him here and now. From my experience, this kind of universe shaking events should serve a greater purpose than just introducing a NPC (even a very interesting one).

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