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BrotharTearer

How would you stat a variant Force Weapon?

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 So according to fluff and all that, Force Weapons can be made into a bunch of different types whereas swords and staffs are the most common and easiest to get hold of, and Nemesis weapons being used by the grey knights (probably not too easy to get a hold of, if they're the only ones allowed to have them?).

Then, how would you stat up for example a force halberd or something similar "cool" and not-so-boring force weapon?

You think a grey knight as able to parry with their halberds? Because parry would be nice to be able to do still, without forced to use Iron Arm.

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BrotharTearer said:

 So according to fluff and all that, Force Weapons can be made into a bunch of different types whereas swords and staffs are the most common and easiest to get hold of, and Nemesis weapons being used by the grey knights (probably not too easy to get a hold of, if they're the only ones allowed to have them?).

Then, how would you stat up for example a force halberd or something similar "cool" and not-so-boring force weapon?

You think a grey knight as able to parry with their halberds? Because parry would be nice to be able to do still, without forced to use Iron Arm.

 

If you have DH, you can draw on common, non-force melee weapons. A force halbard would then be the force equivalent of a "Great Weapon".

 

Alex

 

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 Considering you want something less... sluggish... I'd suggest the Long-sabre found in the Primitive/Feudal chapter in the Inquisitor's Handbook.


It is a two-handed weapon with better damage and similar penetration to a Great Weapon, while still retaining the Balanced quality.  Given the way Force weaponry has been handled, statwise, I'd suggest 1d10 +3 R, Pen 4, Balanced, Special (As force weapon).

 

If you just want a bigass weapon that hits like a sherman tank, use a Great Weapon as the base, ending up with 2d10 +1 R, Pen 4, Unwieldy, Special.
 

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The long-sable was an interesting idea, but I still find the thought of a halberf-kind-of-looking force weapon pretty sweet.

If a space marine would be to use a DH Great Weapon, would it suitable to change the Unwieldy to unbalanced or even remove it fully? As I imagine Grey Knights must be able to parry with their nemesis halberds, even though they're rather big (and space marine sized, which DH Great Weapons are not).

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What about a fighting force glove (more or less brass nuckle for SM) with lots of spikes?

damage : 1d10+SB+2+PR / Pen 1+PR / spe: easy to conceal make a awarness roll at -20% to notice the real purpose of the glove.

 

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 1.  For balance sake, I'd suggest that a Force Great Weapon be left as "unwieldy", and at best be upgraded to "unbalanced" (or "slow"... isn't there a special quality named slow?).  A Force Great Weapon and a Nemesis Force Weapon (i.e. a Grey Knight's Halberd of pwnage) are going to be different animals in the same way a Power Sword is different from a Relic Blade.

If you're trying to stat a Grey Knight's Nemesis weapon, I'd use the Relic Blade as a starting point: Always MC (dmg bonus included), 2d10 +2 R, Pen 3, with the Force quality.  Hits like a bag o' bricks, you can still parry with it, but it just isn't quite as nimble as a smaller blade (as appropriate for a weapon that WILL do INSANE amounts of damage in the hands of a high PR wielder without even using its special quality).  There should always be at least some tradeoff - you'll note that Astartes Power Fists are not really any different from its DH and RT predecessors, including their "unwieldy" nature, which leaves one defenseless (unless they spend extra requisition on defenses, like Combat Shields or a maglocked Mastercrafter Chainsword, or the like) aside from damage soak.

 

2.Those Force Brass Knuckles hit harder than a Force Staff attack swung with both hands, and hits equally hard as a sword.  Might consider lowering the damage to just 1d10 or 1d10 +1 (and that would only be for an Astartes version - a DH version should be hitting at closer to mere human unarmed damages, i.e. 1d5 +1).  I like the special rule, and would absolutely love to "shake hands" with an enemy commander and "accidentally" let loose a little warp.  *zzzzzzzap*

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The damage I was thinking of when writting it was 1d10 for the unarmed damage of A SM and just +2 bonus from the brass nuckle but for what it is you can loose it if you want not really a big problem.

Glad you like the spe rule.

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 I only suggest that the damage be lowered since SM are already so **** incredible with unarmed strikes that adding spikes to their gauntlet probably won't really increase the DAMAGE they do, just their method of hurting the foe.  The fact that it adds PR to damage and pen as a force weapon means it will eventually act like a miniature Power Fist, which is nice.  The spikes on this Force Glove, in my mind, is less about increasing the sheer damage it causes and more about increasing penetration (that warp-channeling effect is probably most effective when the weapon is touching enemy flesh, neh?).

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For a Force Halberd (not of the nemesis kind), I think 2d10 R +2 Special: Force, Unbalanced would be suitable. Taking the Great Weapon straight from DH and making it Unbalanced as it's a Astartes using it (its not as big those those guys). An Astartes sized Force Great Weapon would probably still be Unwieldy, unless being a Nemesis or so.

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 It's up to you, it is your game after all.

I would take into account, Librarians can be really powerful starting characters (check out avenger,  range is only 30 but up to that range it is more powerful against hordes than a starting PC with a heavy bolter).  Your force Halberd even with (remember an Astartes with a Force weapon will more than likely have an Astartes Force weapon) unwieldly  is due to the size and shape of the weapon, taking into account the nature of a force weapon and the technology inside the shaft of the weapon would probably mean that the weapon could not parry.  But the kind of Battle-Brother that would wield such a weapon may not be given to such tactics like parrying.

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I can't see "Force Brass Knuckles" working, simply because Force Weapons/Nemesis Weapons are supposed to be brimming with all sorts of crystalline structures/hexagrammic runes inside of the metal proper that the Psyker wielding it uses to focus their power.

 

Hence why swords/staves/halberds/axes are so popular. They're really the only effective way to do it.

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 I'd imagine that the technique for using a halberd would be different for a battle brother, their strength and enhanced agility would allow  for the weapon to be used in different ways to how a normal human might use it, imagine sweeps capable of finishing several enemies at once!

All force weapons are treated as Mundane Astartes weapons when used be a none psychic marine uses it. I think that all marine h2h weapons do not count as primitive I would keep the weapons stats from DH but without primitive and then add the force weapon abilities.

I also think that force knuckles or even a force fist would not work, mainly because of how  the technology seems to work.

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BrotharTearer said:

For a Force Halberd (not of the nemesis kind), I think 2d10 R +2 Special: Force, Unbalanced would be suitable. 

If you are going to double the number of d10s, then Unbalanced is not enough of a drawback. I'd use Unwiedly.

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But at the same time...it's an Astartes weapon, usually in these cases hand-made for the wielder. I don't see it being unwieldy, or even unbalanced. At most, it'd be slightly awkward to handle yes but it'd also be equivalent to a master-crafted power weapon without the Psyker involvement.

 

Force Weapons are not, in any circumstances, mass-produced for the Astartes Epistolaries. They're made and attuned to the specific individual who will be wielding them. The only thing making them worse than the Nemesis Force Weapons is the fact that the Psykers wielding them haven't been trained to harness others' psychic abilities and focus it through their own weapon like the Grey Knight Justicars.

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Kanluwen said:

But at the same time...it's an Astartes weapon, usually in these cases hand-made for the wielder. I don't see it being unwieldy, or even unbalanced. At most, it'd be slightly awkward to handle yes but it'd also be equivalent to a master-crafted power weapon without the Psyker involvement.

 

Force Weapons are not, in any circumstances, mass-produced for the Astartes Epistolaries. They're made and attuned to the specific individual who will be wielding them. The only thing making them worse than the Nemesis Force Weapons is the fact that the Psykers wielding them haven't been trained to harness others' psychic abilities and focus it through their own weapon like the Grey Knight Justicars.

 

Power Fists, on the hand of Astartes or human, is unwieldy.

Astartes sized weapons are no better balanced than their human counterparts, they're just heavier and hit harder (hence the almost-across-the-board +1 damage).

If you want the full extra d10 damage, then either stick to dodging or get yourself a Combat Shield.

 

Now, if we were talking about a RELIC Force Great Weapon, we might look to, well, the Relic blade as inspiration, and find a two-handed blade balanced enough for effective parrying... but then, at that point, we're talking 70+ Requisition, Hero Renown, etc., etc.

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Powerfists, no matter the design, are going to be an unwieldy weapon. There's no real way to "balance" a gigantic fist packed to the brim with tech to generate a power field that allows you to bloody reach your hand inside and rip apart a tank.

 

A halberd, on the other hand, is something you can balance with a counterweight on the haft. Given that a force halberd isn't going to rely on a power generator, but instead is honeycombed with crystalline amplifiers for psychic energy...

 

Yeah. It wouldn't be too unwieldy with a counterweight.

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Kanluwen said:

Powerfists, no matter the design, are going to be an unwieldy weapon. There's no real way to "balance" a gigantic fist packed to the brim with tech to generate a power field that allows you to bloody reach your hand inside and rip apart a tank.

 

A halberd, on the other hand, is something you can balance with a counterweight on the haft. Given that a force halberd isn't going to rely on a power generator, but instead is honeycombed with crystalline amplifiers for psychic energy...

 

Yeah. It wouldn't be too unwieldy with a counterweight.

 

If you want a non-relic BFG (er, sword) capable of parrying, don't use Great Weapons as the basis.  Use a Bastard Sword or the Long-Sabre, which balances the ability to parry with lower damage.  Fluff is fine, but there already is fluff for Halberds as Great Weapons, and their stats are reflected by the Unwieldy trait.  If you want to add a counterbalance, decrease the damage the weapon does to compensate.   This is as much a game balance issue as a fluff issue.  

All I ask is that you look at Astartes versions of weapons and their human equivalents, since we're trying to make an Astartes version of a Great Weapon Force weapon.  Let me know if any Astartes weapons are more balanced than their counterparts, OK?  I might agree with you then.  As is, though, an Astartes-grade weapon seems to be mono versions of human weapons that add damage, penetration, neither, or both.  An Astartes Great Weapon should do 2d10 +1 dmg with a Pen of 4.  If you want a Halberd that doesn't fit into the stats of Great Weapons (one that utilizes counterweights to increase its defensive capabilities) then don't use Great Weapons stats.

There is no free lunch.  Not even if you're Astartes.  I know for a fact that if I tried to get my GM to accept a weapon with all of the benefits but without all of the drawbacks, I'd be rejected, regardless of the fluff.

Want a balanced Bigass Force Weapon?  Be a Grey Knight, or have the renown of a Hero.

 

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Unusualsuspect said:

 

Kanluwen said:

 

Powerfists, no matter the design, are going to be an unwieldy weapon. There's no real way to "balance" a gigantic fist packed to the brim with tech to generate a power field that allows you to bloody reach your hand inside and rip apart a tank.

 

A halberd, on the other hand, is something you can balance with a counterweight on the haft. Given that a force halberd isn't going to rely on a power generator, but instead is honeycombed with crystalline amplifiers for psychic energy...

 

Yeah. It wouldn't be too unwieldy with a counterweight.

 

 

 

If you want a non-relic BFG (er, sword) capable of parrying, don't use Great Weapons as the basis.  Use a Bastard Sword or the Long-Sabre, which balances the ability to parry with lower damage.  Fluff is fine, but there already is fluff for Halberds as Great Weapons, and their stats are reflected by the Unwieldy trait.  If you want to add a counterbalance, decrease the damage the weapon does to compensate.   This is as much a game balance issue as a fluff issue. 

A counterbalance wouldn't "decrease the damage the weapon does". If anything(in "real life"), counterbalanced weapons hit harder because you get more force behind the swing without it being an unwieldy weapon.

All I ask is that you look at Astartes versions of weapons and their human equivalents, since we're trying to make an Astartes version of a Great Weapon Force weapon.  Let me know if any Astartes weapons are more balanced than their counterparts, OK?  I might agree with you then.  As is, though, an Astartes-grade weapon seems to be mono versions of human weapons that add damage, penetration, neither, or both.  An Astartes Great Weapon should do 2d10 +1 dmg with a Pen of 4.  If you want a Halberd that doesn't fit into the stats of Great Weapons (one that utilizes counterweights to increase its defensive capabilities) then don't use Great Weapons stats.

You're referring to Astartes grade power weapons. There's no need for the field generator(which adds to the weight of the weapon), no need for a superheavy haft, etc.

These are "Force" weapons. They're, for all intents and purposes, your bogstandard weapon featuring a ton of crystalline structures, intricate hexagrammic wards, etc on the inside. The deadly part of it comes from the Psyker himself empowering the weapon with the Warp capability.

There is no free lunch.  Not even if you're Astartes.  I know for a fact that if I tried to get my GM to accept a weapon with all of the benefits but without all of the drawbacks, I'd be rejected, regardless of the fluff.

Want a balanced Bigass Force Weapon?  Be a Grey Knight, or have the renown of a Hero.

 

Yes, because the potential to have your soul sucked into the Warp while you're channeling Psyker energy into the weapon is totally not a drawback.

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 I was referring to the differences between Astartes and non-Astartes weapon equivalents, not between force and non-force weaponry.  

That said, forgive me - what I stated was not clear.  I thought the context of the discussion would make it obvious I was discussing the relative ability of Astartes weapons to parry in comparison to their equivalents... not the chance of Psychic Phenomena when using a force weapon's special abilities.
 

Substitute "some" for "all" in my previous statement.

 

Edit:  Whoops, I missed a bunch of your comments (God, this forum software is wonky... Damnit, FFG, someone has to FIX this ****).

 

If a counterbalance would help a weapon parry AND hit harder, describe for me a reason why a Great Weapon wouldn't already incorporate this into their design.  I submit it already does, and that the weapon is STILL considered too Unwieldy to parry as effectively as necessary to have an in-game effect.  The game, while more detailed than, say, Tabletop, is still an abstraction - even Great Weapon are being used to deflect stray attacks in the course of an exchange of blows.  To parry a blow that slips past the normal defenses, in my mind, is going to require the next step up, and Great Weapons are incapable of the more exceptional (in-game-effecting) parries, given the way they were designed.


 

And while I'm  referring to astartes-grade power weapons, I'm ALSO using the stats for Astartes-grade force weapons.  Take a look at that Astartes Force Sword, compare it to the Inquisitor's Handbook - same weapon, same stats, just heavier and hits harder.  Take a look at that Astartes Force Staff, while you're at it - same deal.  So, like I said - show me an Astartes-grade weapon that is more easily wielded (that is, has a different "balanced" property) than its human equivalent.  Until you can do that, I can't really say I can agree that Astartes-grade weapons will be easier to parry with than their human counterparts, can I?

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 Perhaps, instead of arguing Reality versus Fiction regarding counterweights and weapon balance, especially in this sort of setting, we can discuss concrete examples?

 

Take, for instance, the Sacris Claymore.  This is Storm Warden specific, and has stats (and fluff) very reminiscent of a Mono Great Weapon bumped up to Astartes stats... though it lacks the increased penetration.  Still, it could reasonably illustrate Kanluwen's point and would make an excellent alternative Force Weapon for a Storm Warden librarian.

 

I'm still of the mind that an extra d10 damage, and thus an extra 9% chance of Righteous Fury, is such a boost that the weapon really aught to have more of a drawback (in comparison to other force weapon, Kanluwen, just to be clear gui%C3%B1o.gif).  If a Great Weapon is going to not be unwieldy, I'd rather there be a serious price to pay for it - In this case, I again mention the Relic Blade as a good starting point (Lots of Renown and Requisition required, and for that price, a weapon that hits like a bag o' bricks).

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Unusualsuspect said:

Take, for instance, the Sacris Claymore.  This is Storm Warden specific, and has stats (and fluff) very reminiscent of a Mono Great Weapon bumped up to Astartes stats... though it lacks the increased penetration.  Still, it could reasonably illustrate Kanluwen's point and would make an excellent alternative Force Weapon for a Storm Warden librarian.

Hm, actually that Sacris Claymore is more or less the thing I was looking for, as it'd work well as a basis for an Astartes Force Great Weapon being able to parry. Just throw on the Force trait, and we got ourselves one.

We get +1d10 (and +1 dmg +2 pen over the staff) and a bad ass big weapon, while the drawbacks are 20 less on our Parry check compared to the other Force weapon choices, not able to use a gun or another melee weapon in our offhand and stuff that comes with having to use both hands to attack. However, seeing as how you as a librarian attacking in melee probably get most of your damage channeling the warp through your weapon, that +1d10 will probably not mean much of a difference more than a little higher chance of RF (which still probably won't be as much as from the warp channeling).

I'd say the actual damage on the force weapon matters less, as the damage more often than not isn't coming from those stats alone.

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Give me an edit button, please.

On the whole Relic Blade-thing: I can't personally see how you would use one of those as basis, more than they always being Great Weapons, because all their "stuff" seem to come from old power field generators, which force weapons do not have. Its those power fields which grants it the req costs, renown ranks, dmg and pen. That leaves no bonus to parry, it being a great weapon and 2d10 with unknown base +dmg and +pen.

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying?

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