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jago668

Rapid Fire with two weapons?

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Title is the main part of the question.  The refinement to the title is, Can you hold two basic weapons (bolter, storm bolter, etc) and rapid fire them both?

 

New rule system so still trying to learn some of the rules. 

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Yes, this is covered under the Two Weapon Fighting header on page 246- the relevant parts are the first, third and sixth bullet points.

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I´d say No.

 

Page 239 Full Auto Burst:

.......If the character has a pistol in each hand, both capable of fully automatic fire, he may fire both with this action (see Two-Weapon Fighting, page 246)........

 

Page 242 Semi-Auto Burst:

.......If the character has a pistol in each hand, both capable of semi-automatic fire, he may fire both with this action (see Two-Weapon Fighting, page 246)........

 

Page 246 Two-Weapon Fighting:

  • If a character with the Two-Weaplon Wielder Talent is armed with a melee weapon in one hand and a pistol in the other, he may attack with both while engaged in melee combat using the Multiple Attacks combat action...........
  • When firing a ranged weapon with each hand, the character may fire each weapon on a different mode,.......

 

No word mentioning basic weapons. Imo the Recoil Suppression only grants you the ability to fire a basic weapon single handedly without penalty, no more.

It is a bit iffy though and leaves room for interpretation, especially the second last point of Two-Weapon Fighting (the second I´ve quoted here) bumms over what would otherwise have been crystal clear. But since both full and semi burst actions explicidly mention pistols I´ll go with that. If you´d play exactly RAW you could only use pistols to simultaneously fire a full or semi burst but you could use basic weapons to fire full and a semi burst, lol. So I´d say nope.

Or maybe the pistols in the semi and full burst segments are missleading and it´s possible. But that smells a bit munchkin to me^^. Beware the dual whristmounted stormbolter + 2 melee weapons gosu munchkin :P

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I say yes, you can.  Only restrictions RAW are talent gunslinger doesn't apply (so you have -10% to-hit with both attacks), and you can't do it in melee, as they aren't pistols.

This below doesn't seem to apply at all seeing you can't use basic weapons in melee anyway.  All bullets on page 246 two-weapon fighting, support being able to do it.

"Page 246 Two-Weapon Fighting:

 

•If a character with the Two-Weaplon Wielder Talent is armed with a melee weapon in one hand and a pistol in the other, he may attack with both while engaged in melee combat using the Multiple Attacks combat action...........
•When firing a ranged weapon with each hand, the character may fire each weapon on a different mode,......."

The others seem to be more example type things.  They don't explicitly say pistol in any other part or way in the talents except in gunslinger.

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Suijin said:

I say yes, you can.  Only restrictions RAW are talent gunslinger doesn't apply (so you have -10% to-hit with both attacks), and you can't do it in melee, as they aren't pistols.

This below doesn't seem to apply at all seeing you can't use basic weapons in melee anyway.  All bullets on page 246 two-weapon fighting, support being able to do it.

"Page 246 Two-Weapon Fighting:

 

•If a character with the Two-Weaplon Wielder Talent is armed with a melee weapon in one hand and a pistol in the other, he may attack with both while engaged in melee combat using the Multiple Attacks combat action...........
•When firing a ranged weapon with each hand, the character may fire each weapon on a different mode,......."

The others seem to be more example type things.  They don't explicitly say pistol in any other part or way in the talents except in gunslinger.

 

And how do you explain that the rules texts in the Full auto and Semi auto action segments,regarding two-weapon fighting (and refering to page 246) explicidly name pistols?

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And how do you explain that the rules texts in the Full auto and Semi auto action segments,regarding two-weapon fighting (and refering to page 246) explicidly name pistols?

 

Under normal circumstances you cannot fire a basic weapon one handed. 

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*Extra Grip (Weapon Upgrade) - Also known as a pistol grip, this allows the weapon to be wielded one-handed without the usual -20 penalty.  However it becomes more difficult to aim accurately and its range is halved.

Simple answer to you question is....yes you can.  Without the Extra Grip upgrade however it would be at a -20.  And since this effectively allows you to fire a basic weapon just like a pistol I see no reason that you could not use the weapons to do a semi or full-auto burst with each.  I could however see some GMs imposing a penalty to this even with the grip because you are essentially trying to fire a rifle sized weapon one-handed on semi-auto or full-auto.

Potentially powerful? yes.  Munchkin?  IMO  not really.  Although some playtesting in my group would need to be done to make a final ruling on whether I would impose a penalty for firing both on semi or full-auto in a round.

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moepp said:

Suijin said:

 

I say yes, you can.  Only restrictions RAW are talent gunslinger doesn't apply (so you have -10% to-hit with both attacks), and you can't do it in melee, as they aren't pistols.

This below doesn't seem to apply at all seeing you can't use basic weapons in melee anyway.  All bullets on page 246 two-weapon fighting, support being able to do it.

"Page 246 Two-Weapon Fighting:

 

•If a character with the Two-Weaplon Wielder Talent is armed with a melee weapon in one hand and a pistol in the other, he may attack with both while engaged in melee combat using the Multiple Attacks combat action...........
•When firing a ranged weapon with each hand, the character may fire each weapon on a different mode,......."

The others seem to be more example type things.  They don't explicitly say pistol in any other part or way in the talents except in gunslinger.

 

 

 

And how do you explain that the rules texts in the Full auto and Semi auto action segments,regarding two-weapon fighting (and refering to page 246) explicidly name pistols?

page 246 outside of melee never refers to pistols.

in fact it says:  "The character may use any melee weapons or ranged weapons that can be reasonably used in one hand"

and on page 161 under recoil suppression of the power armor it says:  "Provides the ability to fire basic weapons one-handed.  Ranged weapons not classed as pistols may not be used in close combat."

So you can.

Unfortunately some stuff in the books are hold overs/copy paste errors from DH.  An example is the description of ambidextrous talent.  They seem to have ambidextrous and two-weapon weilder switched around in the errata as far as to-hit bonuses.

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RAW you cannot as there is a difference between Pistol and being able to weild a Basic weapon in one hand.

I've never pushed the current GM to be able to do it with my guy but would expect a no based off of the rules and possibly balance.

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I think you could fire both but not in melee. Isn't there still some penalty to doing so even with ambidextrous and two weapon wielder ballistic? (-10 still?) but youd add the +20 from full auto?

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 By RAW, being able to be wielded one-handed is not equivalent to being/acting as a pistol.  The fact of the matter is that anyone already CAN wield a basic weapon one-handed, they just take a hefty penalty to hit.  If Full-auto doesn't state that you're allowed to fire two basic weapons as a single action, like it explicitly does with Pistols, you can't.

Rule of Cool, on the other hand?  That's in the eye of the beholder, and the frak that needs Deathwatch marines sent into the fray may very well call for Sergeant Gunsakimbo to bring more dakka by dual-wielding Bolters, or even Storm Bolters, emperor's mercy upon the recipients!  Plus, even the enemy Warboss would probably be impressed with that kind of dakka.  Of course, like the orks such a marine would be mimicing, he'd be taking a somewhat hefty penalty and, unless really close, might have occasional trouble with a broad side of the barn...

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Suijin said:

 

 

page 246 outside of melee never refers to pistols.

in fact it says:  "The character may use any melee weapons or ranged weapons that can be reasonably used in one hand"

and on page 161 under recoil suppression of the power armor it says:  "Provides the ability to fire basic weapons one-handed.  Ranged weapons not classed as pistols may not be used in close combat."

So you can.

Unfortunately some stuff in the books are hold overs/copy paste errors from DH.  An example is the description of ambidextrous talent.  They seem to have ambidextrous and two-weapon weilder switched around in the errata as far as to-hit bonuses.

 

 

 

Slowly there.

That´s no hold over/copy paste error. The rules for using basic weapons with one hand only are exactly the same in DH and DW (you get a -20 BS penalty), so are the rules for two-weapons fighting. Only in DW you have a PA with recoil suppression which removes the -20 BS penalty. That´s all.

The only copy and paste issue I see is that they haven´t included errata from DH.

I googled this and stumbled upon this thread http://www.livingcardgame.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=70&efcid=3&efidt=131002&efpag=2, where they discussed the exact same issue. With the outcome that it´s not allowed.

Yes the game is DH not DW, but the rules are the same after all.

 

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moepp said:

Beware the dual whristmounted stormbolter + 2 melee weapons gosu munchkin

calgar10.jpg

They did say in a podcast that they want to take players characters from basic Marines to Special Characters with custom wargear, so this sort of thing shouldn't be entirely outside the realm of possibility.

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Although in all honesty, dual wielding in this manner is basically being a poor mans devastator. What, now you can target different enemies? So what? You're still only firing about 8 rounds max, and damage output isn't the same as a heavy bolter. In other words, whats the point? I think I might have been one of the early ones to suggest dual wielding bolters with chain weapon attachments.

My way as a GM to make players shy away from this, is to cause penalties on the reload time (basic weapons make a hand unusable for the purpose of reloading).

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AluminiumWolf said:

moepp said:

Beware the dual whristmounted stormbolter + 2 melee weapons gosu munchkin

 

calgar10.jpg

They did say in a podcast that they want to take players characters from basic Marines to Special Characters with custom wargear, so this sort of thing shouldn't be entirely outside the realm of possibility.

 

Hahaha, didn´t think of that one. But seriously, the Fists of Ultramar? Pieced together by a little bit of regular marine wargear from the armoury? Wouldn´t be such a famed artifact if it was so easy., don´t you think?

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Well lets see...

2x master crafted bolters, 20 req total

2x master craft power fists, 120 req total

2x arm mounting 20 req total

 

total cost for poor mans fists of ultramaar, 160 requisition

 

Although making it 2x mc storm bolters for 80 pts total would be cool as well, in which case

slightly cooler poor mans fists of ultramaar, 220 req.

I'd call it a fairly specail relic at this point.

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Is it just me or does the text of the arm mounting read "Upgrades: Las, Solid Projectile, Bolt, or Melta Pistol, or Auxilary Grenade Launcher"

That sounds like you can only arm mount pistols but they dont allow plasma pistols for some reason, which makes more sense than it meaning all las, all solid projectile, all bolt, and melta pistols only

If it is pistols only then the ranged penalty also hurts a lot more the 30m range of a bolt pistol going down to 20

 

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Yeah looks that way. I somehow took Bolters and Stormbolters for granted since they also appear in the TT as arm mounted version, but the text definetly says pistols only.

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moepp said:

Yeah looks that way. I somehow took Bolters and Stormbolters for granted since they also appear in the TT as arm mounted version, but the text definetly says pistols only.

I think it's worth considering those arm-mounted bolters and stormbolters as specific designs - The bolters on the Gauntlets of Macragge, the relic-Stormbolter Dorn's Arrow carried by Pedro Cantor of the Crimson Fists, the Angelus bolters on the Sanguinary Guard, and the Titan-pattern Stormbolters used by Grey Knights seem to be specially-designed to be forearm-mounted, rather than just being normal weapons customised to be wielded differently.

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moepp said:

Suijin said:

 

 

page 246 outside of melee never refers to pistols.

in fact it says:  "The character may use any melee weapons or ranged weapons that can be reasonably used in one hand"

and on page 161 under recoil suppression of the power armor it says:  "Provides the ability to fire basic weapons one-handed.  Ranged weapons not classed as pistols may not be used in close combat."

So you can.

Unfortunately some stuff in the books are hold overs/copy paste errors from DH.  An example is the description of ambidextrous talent.  They seem to have ambidextrous and two-weapon weilder switched around in the errata as far as to-hit bonuses.

 

 

 

Slowly there.

That´s no hold over/copy paste error. The rules for using basic weapons with one hand only are exactly the same in DH and DW (you get a -20 BS penalty), so are the rules for two-weapons fighting. Only in DW you have a PA with recoil suppression which removes the -20 BS penalty. That´s all.

The only copy and paste issue I see is that they haven´t included errata from DH.

I googled this and stumbled upon this thread http://www.livingcardgame.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=70&efcid=3&efidt=131002&efpag=2, where they discussed the exact same issue. With the outcome that it´s not allowed.

Yes the game is DH not DW, but the rules are the same after all.

 

As far as the ambidextrous and TWW talents, I do believe they have them reversed in the errata.  From the errata 3.0:

If you do not have the Two Weapon Wielder talent and you wield
two weapons at the same time, you can use a Full Action to make a
single attack with each weapon. However, you suffer a –20 to the
attack roll with the weapon in your dominant hand and –40 with
the weapon in your off hand.

If you have the Ambidextrous talent but not Two
Weapon Wielder, you suffer –10 to the attack roll with
your dominant hand and –30 with your off hand.

If you have the Two Weapon Wielder talent you can hold two
weapons, one in each hand, and can make a single attack with
each. This is a Full Action, and both attack rolls suffer a –20
penalty (your off-hand weapon does not suffer the normal –20
off-hand penalty on top of this).

The descriptions of ambidextrous and TWW from DH Core seem to both be descriptions for ambidextrous:

Ambidextrous
Prerequisites: Agility 30.
You can use either hand equally well. You do not take the normal –20 penalty for making attacks with your secondary hand.Special: If you have the Two-Weapon Wielder talent, the penalty for making attacks with both weapons in the same Turn drops to –10.

Two-Weapon Wielder
Talent Groups: Ballistic, Melee.
Prerequisites: Ballistic Skill 35 or
Weapon Skill 35, Agility 35.
When armed with two weapons of a
particular type, you may spend a Full
Action to attack with both on your
turn. Each Test made to attack with
the weapons takes a –20 penalty (see
Chapter VII: Playing the Game,
page 197 for more details). You must
take Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee) and
Two-Weapon Wielder (Ballistic) if you
wish to use a gun and hand weapon at
the same time.

By my thinking (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) ambidextrous talent only should be -20/-20 to attack, and TWW only -10/-30 to attack.  It should be as the ambidexrtous talent description says where it removes the off hand penalty of -20.  If you start at -20/-40 without either talent, then having ambidextrous should make it -20/-20.  This seems to be the description they have for TWW talent though, so I do think they have it switched around in the errata.

I have brought this up to Mack Martin and he is looking into it.

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Suijin said:

I don't have my DW book with me, but didn't they remove the pistol requirement on Hip Shooting talent in DW?  I know it is there in DH.

 

Removed.

 

Alex

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Suijin said:

..............................................

 

Yes, your pov of TWW and Ambidextrous seems correct to me, and yes they removed the pistol requirement from "Hip Shooting".

However this has nothing to do with the limitations (or non-limitations) of using basic weapons one-handed (?). Not to devalue your point, just to make sure we are still on the same track^^.

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