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Lightbringer

Complete new Chapter rules: Marines Malevolent

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Hmmm...the two interpretations of the chapter (and bear in mind I knew nothing about the stuff in the Salamanders book) don't sound totally incompatible...  From that extract they are not terribly well turned out, loyal to the Emperor and mission focussed to the point of stealiing equipment. Not quite along the lines of my interpretation, but not so disparate as to be a total clash...

Unless there's more in the book to completely scupper my hard work! happy.gif 

 

EDIT: Actually, this bit sounds very much like my interpretation..."They knew only war, and fought it so relentlessly and without cessation that their equipment was battered almost to destruction."

Thanks, by the way, Kenshin. It's galling to find that ones interpretation of a Chapter might been overtaken by a Canon source you weren't aware of, but that's why you put stuff like this on the forum: for constructive criticism! gui%C3%B1o.gif 

[Lightbringer wanders off, muttering to self, kicks the dog]

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I think it's easy enough to adapt Lightbringer.

Think about it - if you're out of ammo for your bolters, out of warheads for orbital bombardment, out of plasma canister and your techmarine are overworked because they have so many repair to make... your typical Chapter may very well retreat or at the very least, request for back up.

The Marine Malevolent are ready to do anything to win and refuse to show weakness - they would a virus bomb on the planet and kill everything on it, enemies and civilians alike.

Just change it so part of the doctrine came from the fact that when you fight with limited ressource, you can't always be picky about what you use on the Heretics.

 Part of their scorn can also come as a bit of jealousy/comtempt for the other Chapter who have so much easier with their fancy relic blade, brand new bolter and stuff like that... I mean, they pacified entire worlds with duck-tapped gear!

 

 

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 I would add that they may not be Librarians. I would also make mention that they cannot wear MK7 armor (too rare for them). Yes the rules in the core book are for MK7, but that doesn't stop somebody from having an older mark and just using the same rules. Plus I'm sure at some point we'll have different mark armor rules, which would fit perfectly.

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There is also a fluff piece in a WD during the last Armageddon war where the MM were put in charge of a refugee camp while the marines readied for another assault.  The MM were quickly pulled from that duty as a good number of the refugees starved to death because the MM have absolutely no sense of duty to people they saw as too weak to survive.  But don't sweat too bad the fluff details, they can always be tweaked without much effort.

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The Glen said:

There is also a fluff piece in a WD during the last Armageddon war where the MM were put in charge of a refugee camp while the marines readied for another assault.  The MM were quickly pulled from that duty as a good number of the refugees starved to death because the MM have absolutely no sense of duty to people they saw as too weak to survive. 

Yep. But given that that doesn't take place until 991 M41, and Deathwatch is set in 817 M41, it hasn't happened yet.

Although the major background source for the Marines Malevolent (apart from the accursed Salamanders novel that I was unaware of enfadado.gif) is the Armageddon War material, I deliberately avoided referring to it, or using it in the Past Histories of the Chapter. I instead wrote the Chapter up to give them a background that fits their later behaviour perfectly. gui%C3%B1o.gif 

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Lightbringer said:

Hmmm...the two interpretations of the chapter (and bear in mind I knew nothing about the stuff in the Salamanders book) don't sound totally incompatible...  From that extract they are not terribly well turned out, loyal to the Emperor and mission focussed to the point of stealiing equipment. Not quite along the lines of my interpretation, but not so disparate as to be a total clash...

Unless there's more in the book to completely scupper my hard work! happy.gif 

 

EDIT: Actually, this bit sounds very much like my interpretation..."They knew only war, and fought it so relentlessly and without cessation that their equipment was battered almost to destruction."

Thanks, by the way, Kenshin. It's galling to find that ones interpretation of a Chapter might been overtaken by a Canon source you weren't aware of, but that's why you put stuff like this on the forum: for constructive criticism! gui%C3%B1o.gif 

[Lightbringer wanders off, muttering to self, kicks the dog]

Having read the Salamanders novel I think your take on the Chapter is pretty consistent with the way they are represented in that book.  The only thing you don't mention is their lack of new equipment which is rather easy to add in.  My only real criticism is the focus on exterminatus, virus bombs, etc.  Not to say that they wouldn't use such things without blinking, I'm pretty sure they would, but any chapter that makes a habit of mass murder is going to get a reputation for it really quick.  To me that aspect of your write up is a little over the top.  Just make them ruthless win-at-all costs Marines without the WMD-lover aspect and they seem more believable and more consistent with the little fluff they have. 

Good write-up either way though.  Cheers.

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Atheosis said:

 My only real criticism is the focus on exterminatus, virus bombs, etc.  Not to say that they wouldn't use such things without blinking, I'm pretty sure they would, but any chapter that makes a habit of mass murder is going to get a reputation for it really quick.  To me that aspect of your write up is a little over the top.  Just make them ruthless win-at-all costs Marines without the WMD-lover aspect and they seem more believable and more consistent with the little fluff they have. 

Fair enough. The underlying principle is the same, but I may have turned it up to 11 when only 10 was required! Personally, I like the idea of a Marine Chapter that doesn't hesitate to go tactical nuclear now and again, though. happy.gif 

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Lightbringer said:

Atheosis said:

 

 My only real criticism is the focus on exterminatus, virus bombs, etc.  Not to say that they wouldn't use such things without blinking, I'm pretty sure they would, but any chapter that makes a habit of mass murder is going to get a reputation for it really quick.  To me that aspect of your write up is a little over the top.  Just make them ruthless win-at-all costs Marines without the WMD-lover aspect and they seem more believable and more consistent with the little fluff they have. 

 

 

Fair enough. The underlying principle is the same, but I may have turned it up to 11 when only 10 was required! Personally, I like the idea of a Marine Chapter that doesn't hesitate to go tactical nuclear now and again, though. happy.gif 

Aside from softies like the Salamanders, most Chapters generally don't hesitate when it comes to the use of such weapons.  Space Marine Chapters are, as a rule, pretty harsh by the standards of normal humans.  Your take on the Marines Malevolent is in keeping with that, just amped up (much like it is with the Iron Hands, though flavored differently).  That said, when it comes to using WMDs and performing Exterminatus Chapters have certain restrictions they have to adhere to if they don't want to be declared traitors.  For the most part, while pretty much all Chapters have the ability to perform Exterminatus, the order to do so generally needs to come from an Inquisitor.  The unilateral killing of an Imperial world would bring a lot of heat down on a Chapter unless it was covered up (not too hard to do if their aren't any surviving witnesses gui%C3%B1o.gif).

Anyway, I think it just needs to be toned down rather than dumped altogether.  Otherwise the Chapter becomes a little hard to buy without them being declared traitors.  Look at how hard it's been for the Flesh Tearers to keep out of trouble, and they merely have a tendency to engage in small-scale massacres.

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Atheosis said:

That said, when it comes to using WMDs and performing Exterminatus Chapters have certain restrictions they have to adhere to if they don't want to be declared traitors.  For the most part, while pretty much all Chapters have the ability to perform Exterminatus, the order to do so generally needs to come from an Inquisitor.  The unilateral killing of an Imperial world would bring a lot of heat down on a Chapter unless it was covered up (not too hard to do if their aren't any surviving witnesses gui%C3%B1o.gif).

All true. I suppose my concept is that the MMs are a genuinely devoted and loyal Imperial Chapter who actively relish making difficult moral choices: such choices would tend to abound over the use of WMD-style weapons. Perhaps I do need to tone down the extent of their use by the Chapter, but I definately wanted the morally ambiguous taint of potential war crimes to hang over the Chapter.

 

At the same time, I wanted MM player characters to be able to stand with their heads held high and say "Yes, we used nerve gas/atomics/virus bombs ....but we were right to do so." And for this to actually be correct. (Well...according to Imperial orthodoxy, anyway.)

To me, this created an opportunity for exciting roleplaying opportunites. The MMs aren't two dimensional thugs, they're highly intelligent and aggressive killers with a genuinely dangerous and amoral philosophy. For "humanitarian" (in relative terms) Chapters like the Ultramarines and Salamanders, such an approach would present a challenge to their entire approach and perhaps therefore their entire way of existence. This seemed to me to set up interesting group dynamics within a Deathwatch campaign, dynamics more nuanced than "My Primarch was better than your Primarch."
 

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Was just thinking about doing a topic of pick 6 chapters you would like to see done and the MMs were on it.No need now as you've done an excellent jobgran_risa.gif Just Salamanders,Relictors,Iron Hands,Raven Guard and Silverskulls to go,heres hoping.Thought WMD addiction was a bit OTT but in the 41st Mil you never know.Once again really good work,i salute you brother.

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