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Mack Martin

New Dark Heresy Designer Diary: Brides of the Emperor

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 Considering the Brides of the Emperor are no more, I wonder whether we'll be getting yet more info on the Temple Tendency in the book. After all, they and their chantry guards in particular have pretty much been set up as the private nemesis of the Sisters in DotDG.

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Exciting stuff, I've several players with Clerical tendancies and Sororitas are a great group (I thought their treatment in IHB was great, once Erratta'd) but they are long overdue for some additional love...so to speak.

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 Looking at the countless pages dedicated to "Female Space Marines" in DW, I trust our gender equality conscious forum-goers will make their voices heard on a thread titled "why can't I play a male Sister of Battle". 

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"Ausgezeichnet!" *tapping fingertips together impatiently* In one of my groups I do have a "Sister" and the psyker of same group tries to flee into "true believing" as a compensation for his sin of being a psyker. All in all, I welcome the outlook of getting a less-scetchy picture of the Imperial Creed.

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guest469 said:

 Looking at the countless pages dedicated to "Female Space Marines" in DW, I trust our gender equality conscious forum-goers will make their voices heard on a thread titled "why can't I play a male Sister of Battle". 

Yep. You can always trust on someone just being a human railroad in mind.

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guest469 said:

 Looking at the countless pages dedicated to "Female Space Marines" in DW, I trust our gender equality conscious forum-goers will make their voices heard on a thread titled "why can't I play a male Sister of Battle". 

I certainly hope not. I'd probably tell them to go play a Space Marine instead. Hilarity ensues.

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It's a pity this book won't come out soon enough to incorporate its stuff into Act IV of our campaign, the part where the group go to a Cathedral World.

And do we know yet if this is just Dark Heresy level stuff, or a mix of DH and Ascension-level stuff? I'd hate to think they didn't add any Ascension level stuff (especially for the completely-forgotten-about-in-Ascension Sisters).

BYE

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guest469 said:

Looking at the countless pages dedicated to "Female Space Marines" in DW, I trust our gender equality conscious forum-goers will make their voices heard on a thread titled "why can't I play a male Sister of Battle". 

 

You know, this suddenly causes me to look at the Sisters of Battle in a different way....  Okay not really.   This is the Dawn of War fan in me talking though;  Sisters always were and always will be female Space Marines to me, they just need something to pump them up to the same level as Space Marines (because they wouldn't be in Dark Heresy if they were.)  Granted, I don't like either of them but that's a totally seperate story there.

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H.B.M.C. said:

It's a pity this book won't come out soon enough to incorporate its stuff into Act IV of our campaign, the part where the group go to a Cathedral World.

And do we know yet if this is just Dark Heresy level stuff, or a mix of DH and Ascension-level stuff? I'd hate to think they didn't add any Ascension level stuff (especially for the completely-forgotten-about-in-Ascension Sisters).

BYE

Its be nice if Acension were completely forgotten

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Psion said:

You know, this suddenly causes me to look at the Sisters of Battle in a different way....  Okay not really.   This is the Dawn of War fan in me talking though;  Sisters always were and always will be female Space Marines to me, they just need something to pump them up to the same level as Space Marines (because they wouldn't be in Dark Heresy if they were.)  Granted, I don't like either of them but that's a totally seperate story there.

Why is that? They don't act like Space Marines and they sure don't play like Space Marines in the TT game. They just have similar basic armaments.

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Looks pretty awesome - great artwork

but yes, Daughters of the Emperor shoud really be used!  The ladies in question I should think are a bit sensitive about the "Brides" bit after a certain High Lord abused his position there!

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 I just mailed Mack for something different and put in the question about the "Brides" as a PS. His reply (which he mentioned to be the stance of GW) said that "Brides of the Emperor" is considered antiquated, but not heretical - the more interesting details of the Age of Apostasy aren't widely known below the rank of Celestine.

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andrewm9 said:

Why is that? They don't act like Space Marines and they sure don't play like Space Marines in the TT game. They just have similar basic armaments.

 

Never played TT, too rich for my blood.  My experiences with the setting are through Relic and Fantasy Flight Games so obviously my experiences are a bit different from yours.  But still, warrior-monks with superpowers.  Whether you make then nuns with guns or stonic sci-fi knights... still doesn't have all that much appeal for me.

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My take on the SoB is that they are a relatively undisciplined force. They have superb kit and morale, but their zeal makes them unreliable in combat except to charge the enemy head on. Even the most zealous Black Templar has a thorough appreciation of tactics and battle wisdom drilled into him through the Codex Astartes. The SoBs on the other hand equate caution for cowardice. Trusting in their faith and unconcerned with death. "The Emperor Protects" and that alone for them is enough. 

At the heart of it, all Space Marines are highly disciplined if superhuman soldiers, whereas SoB are crazy frothing fundamentalists in power armour.

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Cifer said:

 

 I just mailed Mack for something different and put in the question about the "Brides" as a PS. His reply (which he mentioned to be the stance of GW) said that "Brides of the Emperor" is considered antiquated, but not heretical - the more interesting details of the Age of Apostasy aren't widely known below the rank of Celestine.

 

 

Hmm, thanks most interesting - I can't recall the "Brides" being used in fluff or codexes except during the Age of Apostasy and IIRC the returning to the "Daughters" was pretty symbolic of the disgust they felt in how they had been used/duped.........  I can however understand that the information about exactly what happened not being widely circulated!

@ Guest 469 - that does seem to be how the SOBs are viewed by some other Imperial Officials and Officers, Notably a certain Commissar "Hero of the Imperium" - however the same Commissar also meets at elast one older, wiser, more experienced and hence prgamatic Senior Sister (Who also disples the celebacy myth.........)

Whilst they can be somewhat unrealible (or more precisely fairly predictable) - often their opposition - heretics and traitors will have no more chance against them than they would against Space Marines.  Also arguably - they are more protected than the Astartes by the Emperor.........

 

 

 

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guest469 said:

 

My take on the SoB is that they are a relatively undisciplined force. They have superb kit and morale, but their zeal makes them unreliable in combat except to charge the enemy head on. Even the most zealous Black Templar has a thorough appreciation of tactics and battle wisdom drilled into him through the Codex Astartes. The SoBs on the other hand equate caution for cowardice. Trusting in their faith and unconcerned with death. "The Emperor Protects" and that alone for them is enough. 

At the heart of it, all Space Marines are highly disciplined if superhuman soldiers, whereas SoB are crazy frothing fundamentalists in power armour.

 

 

If they were an undisciplined force  they'd rarely win. They are the elite troops of the Ecclesiarchy. They have faith and zeal but they are soldiers too. A Canoness demands and gets absolute obedience from her Sisters. Sisters Superior wield total discipline over their command. Its true they are unconcerned with death and trust in their faith but that makes them really hard troops to crack not stupid. I think that if they threw their lives away recklessly the High Lords and the Ecclesiarchy woudl not give them such great kit.

You have to realize that the founders of the Orders held off several chapters of Space Marines, Mechanicum troops, and other Imperial forces for a long time when they came to take down Goge Vandire. If they were undisciplined they would have mounted an assault out of the Imperial Palace and attacked directly and likely slaughtered. Instead they held their ground and the palace against all fo that. Their defense was so critical that Konstantin Valdor, Head of the Custodes came to Alicia Dominica herself to try to convince them to stop. He finally took her and her 5 bodyguards before the Emperor himself. I guess the big E had to say something to them to stop. Thats the measure of their resolve, prowess, and discipline.

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A semi-relevant question: do we actually know what constitutes heresy?

I know opinions might widely differ but does the Cult of the Emperor in general and the Calixian Ecclesiarchy in particular have a general concept of what heresy is? (It might be detailed in some sourcebook, but if not, then I hope Blood of Martyrs will give us the answers to this very important question)

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What is Heresy depends on the Inquisitor/Priest/Cardinal/Sister of Battle/etc you ask at the time gui%C3%B1o.gif

Since Radical Inquisitors do things that they say aren't heresy, but Puritan Inquisitors say is heresy, it's a very flexible term, usually used whenever you are doing something the judging party doesn't like or agree with lengua.gif

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MILLANDSON said:

What is Heresy depends on the Inquisitor/Priest/Cardinal/Sister of Battle/etc you ask at the time gui%C3%B1o.gif

Since Radical Inquisitors do things that they say aren't heresy, but Puritan Inquisitors say is heresy, it's a very flexible term, usually used whenever you are doing something the judging party doesn't like or agree with lengua.gif

 

Well, some of those Radicals still affirm that their methods are heretical, but believe strongly in the "fight fire with fire" adage.  It's a matter of "do as I say, and not as I do" for many of them.

But yeah, heresy is wholly in the eye of the observer.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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guest469 said:

My take on the SoB is that they are a relatively undisciplined force. They have superb kit and morale, but their zeal makes them unreliable in combat except to charge the enemy head on. Even the most zealous Black Templar has a thorough appreciation of tactics and battle wisdom drilled into him through the Codex Astartes. The SoBs on the other hand equate caution for cowardice. Trusting in their faith and unconcerned with death. "The Emperor Protects" and that alone for them is enough. 

At the heart of it, all Space Marines are highly disciplined if superhuman soldiers, whereas SoB are crazy frothing fundamentalists in power armour.

I would have to say I would reverse the position of the Black Templars and the Sisters of Battle in that image... the Black Templars are pretty much meant to be psychotic (and can survive being so due to being Space Marines), while the Sisters of Battle are meant to be an elite of relative squishies who consequently have to take some care about what they do. Now they do have a fire based tendency towards close range combat, but it is close *ranged* combat, rather than the Templar's normal approach which seems to be to rush into hand to hand combat with everything. Their choice of weapon does not symbolise a lack of discipline but due to their job being purifying things and so fire providing that symbolic purification of heretics.

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 I'd assume something between the two positions - certain junior parts of the Sororitas would probably indeed get carried away by their fanaticism, but they're still pretty succesful because of several factors:

-equipment: Ok, they're not up to space marine levels, but they're still heads and power-armoured shoulders above the IG

-choice of enemies: The sororitas are mainly the army of the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus, meaning their main target would be rebelling and/or heretical human populations, with the more powerful alien factions (excepting Chaos of course, but then those are the guys they're particularly effective against) only strewn in when they happen to be in the vicinity

-zeal: While obviously lacking balls of steel, Sororitas certainly don't have morale problems.

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And I see I almost completely derailed this thread because of my general distaste for the Sisters.  Allow me to reiterate, I dislike both the Sisters and the Space Marines because they're both inarguably "square jaw action heroes" regardless of their actual difference in the lore and TT.  I just have more fun playing as a guardsman or (as I've generally played so far) some variant of an Adept or a Tech-Priest.  That is my opinion on the matter, thank you and good day.

csabesz said:

A semi-relevant question: do we actually know what constitutes heresy?

I know opinions might widely differ but does the Cult of the Emperor in general and the Calixian Ecclesiarchy in particular have a general concept of what heresy is? (It might be detailed in some sourcebook, but if not, then I hope Blood of Martyrs will give us the answers to this very important question.

Hmmm, ultimately I have to agree with Millandson on this one, it depends on who exactly you talk to.  Generally speaking though, speaking out against the Imperium, worshipping/summoning demons, and conducting deals with the Xeno are generally regarded as Very Bad Things.

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On the discipline of the Sisters of Battle. Remember that these ladies go through the same school system that produces Commissars and Storm Troopers, namely the Schola Progenium. Which is like a military boarding school crossed with an orphanage.

The Sisters, while they are fanatics, have more than just excellent equipment going for them. They are brought up in a highly disciplined environment and have training to go with it.

While equating the Black Templars with that sort of pin-headed thinking is arguably even worse. They're not the only Chapter that favours melee, being fanatical doesn't make them automatically stupid, they're still Space Marines.

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