Timing on Responses after a battle.

[Laserbeaks Fury 0]

I don't have the cards in front of me, so please forgive if I name the wrong cards.

 

I was playing Baratheon and issued a military challenge against a Lannister player. I forget what character it was, but the Lannister player didnt declare defenders. He choose to resolve the claim with a Cerci's (sp?) Attendant. I had a Banner of the Storm in play (as a character). We got into a discussion about timing none of us knew how to resolve.

 

1) Can you respond to winning a challenge and attach Banner of the Storm to a character, and then use Vigilance from the same win and stand the same character?

 

2) How do  you decide what order to play effects? ( in our case, Vigilance versus Cerci's Attendant)

[ktom 598]

Nanite said:

1) Can you respond to winning a challenge and attach Banner of the Storm to a character, and then use Vigilance from the same win and stand the same character?

 

No. The standing effect from Vigilant is resolved as a passive effect, not a Response. All passive effect activated by the resolution of a challenge are resolved before ANY Response effect can be triggered. Therefore, by the time you can trigger the Response on Banner for the Storm to give a character Vigilant, the opportunity to use Vigilant to stand the character has passed.

Nanite said:

2) How do  you decide what order to play effects? ( in our case, Vigilance versus Cerci's Attendant)

 

Well, first note that since this was a military challenge, you are not allowed to use the Response on Banner for the Storm. It can only be used if you win a power challenge. 

The order of effects after a challenge is:

1) All passive effects (Vigilant, Deadly, etc.)

2) Responses; starting with the First Player (NOT the attacking player) and going clockwise around the table, players take turns activating one Response each until all players have no more Responses to activate.

So the order in your scenario would depend on who was first player, assuming that the Baratheon player had a Response to play after this military challenge.

[Laserbeaks Fury 0]

Okay, I'm a little confused now. What exactly is the difference between a passive effect and a response? I thought passive effects were not optional, but Vigilance and Vengeful are stated in the rulebook to be a option.

[ktom 598]

Nanite said:

Okay, I'm a little confused now. What exactly is the difference between a passive effect and a response? I thought passive effects were not optional, but Vigilance and Vengeful are stated in the rulebook to be a option.

 

Well, the difference may be a little subtle in this case, but....

- A triggered effect (like a Response) is any effect that the player specifically chooses to use. That is, it does not initiate unless a player decides that it does. For the most part, triggered effects are the ones that start with a bold timing word (like Response, Any Phase, Challenges, etc).

- A passive effect is any effect that initiates whether the player wants it to or not.

So, looking at Vigilant, you are correct that the by using the wording "may stand," the definition of Vigilant in the rule book does give you the option to leave the character kneeling. However, every time you win a challenge while attacking, you have to make that choice. The difference here is that, whether you want it to or not, the effect of Vigilant initiates and you have to decide whether or not each character stands. You are essentially choosing the scope of the resolution.

So, the definition of Vigilant gives you control over which characters are affected when it resolves. It does not, however, give you control over whether or not the effect initiates. Said differently, you can refuse to stand the character, but you cannot refuse to make a decision about standing the character. A subtle difference (being able to choose the resolution, but not the initiation, of the effect), but one that makes the keywords resolve as passive effects rather than triggered effects.

This is similar to all the "when revealed" effects on plots resolving as passive effects. Sure, you have a choice of which plot to reveal, but once you reveal it, you cannot choose whether or not the "when revealed" text activates; you have to do it. Don't confuse the choice of which plot to reveal with specifically choosing to initiate the effect. Just like with Vigilant; don't confuse the choice of which characters stand when the effect resolves with specifically choosing to initiate or "create" the chance to stand them.

[Laserbeaks Fury 0]

So, do you resolve Vigilant and Vengeful as:

A: A single event. All characters with those keywords may stand.

B: Seperate events. Stand Characters with Vigilance and then stand characters with Vengeful (order chosen by?)

C: Seperate effects for each character.

[ktom 598]

Because the definition of Vigilant and Vengeful talk in terms of "any number of characters," the keywords resolve one time each regardless of how many characters with the keyword are on the table. Since they are different effects, they resolve separately, though. So Vigilant resolves once and Vengeful resolves once.

Technically, all passive effects resolve simultaneously. Most of the time, it will not matter whether Vigilant characters stand before Vengeful ones or vice versa. If for some reason or card effect it DOES matter what order passive effects - including Vigilant, Vengeful and Deadly - resolve in, the First Player (not necessarily the active or attacking player) chooses the order in which all passive effects are applied.

For example, say that I attacked with a 3-STR intrigue character with Deadly. You defended with a single 1-STR intrigue character with Vengeful and the ability "while this character is standing, it cannot be killed" (these are hypothetical cards). In that case, it matters a lot whether Deadly is resolved before Vengeful because it determines whether your defending character dies or not. Since it matters (i.e., there is a conflict in their simultaneous resolution), the First Player decides on the order. If you are First Player, you'll say that Vengeful resolves before Deadly, so that your one defending character cannot be killed when Deadly resolves. If I am First Player, I'm going to say that Deadly resolves first so that your defender dies before it stands and regains its "cannot be killed" status.

Hope that makes sense....

[Laserbeaks Fury 0]

Yes, it makes sense now. Thanks for your time in helping us understand.

[Laserbeaks Fury 0]

Yes, it makes sense now. Thanks for your time in helping us understand.