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HappyDaze

So much hatred in this one...

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OK, making up a character and took the following Origin Path:

Fortress World [provides Hatred]

In Service to the Throne (Tithed)

Crusade (Call to War) [provides Hatred]

The Hand of War* [provides Hatred]

Devotion (Duty)

Missionary

* Each character is allowed "one free choice" that is not limited by the choices above and below it .

This gives us a character with the back ground of having been raised on a highly militant world braced to resist a nearby Ork presence.  So we take Hatred (Orks) as the selection from Fortress World.  The character in question wishes for the Crusade (Call to War) and The Hand of War to also reflect a past battling against Orks instead of a spread of opponents.

There are rules for getting a redundant Talent, both generally and when taking the xp-based options from Into the Storm.  I've heard some say that you can't voluntarily take a redundant Talent (or Skill) in order to swap for Talented (Choose One) if there is another option that could be taken, but I don't see a rule that supports this.  If there is somewhere stating that you can't make a redundant selection for the purpose of swapping out the choice for Talented (Choose One) or a +10 Skill, please point it out.

What I'm considering is taking Hatred (Orks) with Fortress World, Talented (Medicae) in place of the redundant Hatred (Orks) from The Hand of War, and a 50 xp reduction in the cost of Crusade (Call to War) instead of another redundant Hatred (Orks).  Do this seem reasonable?  Is this per the letter of the rules?

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Since the "Hatred" talent can have different enemies to hate, I wouldn't allow my players to pick "Talented" instead, they'd have to have several "Hatred" talents. On the up side, it means they are good at fighting, which makes for a good Arch-Militant and the like.

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HappyDaze said:

This gives us a character with the back ground of having been raised on a highly militant world braced to resist a nearby Ork presence. So we take Hatred (Orks) as the selection from Fortress World. The character in question wishes for the Crusade (Call to War) and The Hand of War to also reflect a past battling against Orks instead of a spread of opponents.
As the battle against the orks continue the missionary sees that a large group of orks use plasma weapons, with some investigations he learns that this was given to the freebooters by some deals with criminals of a nearby hive world. Hatred (Criminals)

 

Under his travels he sees an Ork that once killed a close friend in the military (recognised by a certain scar or some simmilar distinguishing mark). He is about to kill the Ork but is stoped by a rouge trader that explains that the ork is a freebooter under his protection and that the missionary would be severly punished if he hurt it. As said the missionary is taken by the arbites when he tries to gain his righteous vengence. Hatred (Rouge Trader Barbaretta Regias*)

There are many things that happend during a characters life and they can easily be worked in with the war against the orks. Above where two examples both building on his hatred for orks to increase his hatred for those that co-operate with said xenos.

 

 

*The name is merely a placeholder
 

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I've seen no one provide any quotes that would prevent intentional selection of duplications to gain Talented or +10 to a skill, so I still believe that it's a legitimate option.

That said, I may take Hatred (Eldar) for the Crusade (Called to War) pick since it's quite possible the shifty bastards were in the path of the Crusade (or simply could not stay out of the conflict for their own inscrutable reasons), but the Fortress World selection needs to be Hatred (Orks) since that's the established fluff in-group for his particular world and this homeworld is shared by another PC.  I want "the foe in the war that defined your past" to be Orks, so I'm going to stick with Hatred (Orks) for The Hand of War too, since The Face of the Enemy is linked to the Hatred selected at this stage.  Since this second selection of Hatred (Orks) will be a duplicate, it will instead provide the character with Talented (Medicae).

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Realized that I spent too much xp on that Origin Path.  Here's my revised version that (IMEO) fits more closely with a Missionary:

Fortress World

In Service to the Throne (Born to Lead)

Zealot (Unnerving Clarity)

The Hand of War

Devotion (Creed)

Missionary

The character still will have Hatred (Orks) from both Homeworld and Trials and Travails, and I intend to take Talented (Choose One) in place of the redundant selection.

Also, as far as Fortress Worlds are concerned, I can see them being based upon defense from Orks (Chaos too, and probably Tau, but not near the sector where the game is being based) but what else?  Are there Fortress Worlds built to defend against Eldar?  It seems unlikely since the Eldar travel in a manner difficult to predict by imperials (the Dark Eldar even more so).  Fortress Worlds built to defend against Pirates seems wasteful - if you're going to devote that many resources (a Fortress World seems like a major resource drain to me), better to just send a fleet to eliminate the pirates.  Tyranids are really too new and expand "too far, too fast" for Fortress Worlds arrayed against them to make much sense (especially in the area of the RPG).  I don't believe that Necrons are even a known threat at the time of the RPG, and predicting their paths of attack seems to be nearly impossible too.  Mutants, Cults, and other 'Dark Heresy' villains don't really seem appropriate here either.

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HappyDaze said:

What I'm considering is taking Hatred (Orks) with Fortress World, Talented (Medicae) in place of the redundant Hatred (Orks) from The Hand of War, and a 50 xp reduction in the cost of Crusade (Call to War) instead of another redundant Hatred (Orks).  Do this seem reasonable?  Is this per the letter of the rules?

No, because Medicae has nothing to do with your character's Hatred of Orks, but a Common/Scholastic Lore (Orks) or a simple +10 bonus to any Knowledge to any Lore or WP test regarding Orks.

If your character concept can justify getting Talented (Medicae) then ask your GM for it as an Elite Advance.

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guest469 said:

HappyDaze said:

 

What I'm considering is taking Hatred (Orks) with Fortress World, Talented (Medicae) in place of the redundant Hatred (Orks) from The Hand of War, and a 50 xp reduction in the cost of Crusade (Call to War) instead of another redundant Hatred (Orks).  Do this seem reasonable?  Is this per the letter of the rules?

 

 

No, because Medicae has nothing to do with your character's Hatred of Orks, but a Common/Scholastic Lore (Orks) or a simple +10 bonus to any Knowledge to any Lore or WP test regarding Orks.

If your character concept can justify getting Talented (Medicae) then ask your GM for it as an Elite Advance.

I don't think you know your rules very well.  Talented (Choose One) is the option per Rogue Trader's RAW that you can take in the place of a duplicate Talent gained via the Origin Path.  Talented (Medicae) can certainly be justified as the choice if the character tended to the wounded during the long campaign against the Orks.

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HappyDaze said:

 

I don't think you know your rules very well.  Talented (Choose One) is the option per Rogue Trader's RAW that you can take in the place of a duplicate Talent gained via the Origin Path.  Talented (Medicae) can certainly be justified as the choice if the character tended to the wounded during the long campaign against the Orks.

 

That being said, given you can take multiple Hatred talents, you shouldn't be permitted to replace any of them that come up with Talented (X), as they are not technically duplicated if they are not specified.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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Brother Praetus said:

 

HappyDaze said:

 

 

I don't think you know your rules very well.  Talented (Choose One) is the option per Rogue Trader's RAW that you can take in the place of a duplicate Talent gained via the Origin Path.  Talented (Medicae) can certainly be justified as the choice if the character tended to the wounded during the long campaign against the Orks.

 

 

 

That being said, given you can take multiple Hatred talents, you shouldn't be permitted to replace any of them that come up with Talented (X), as they are not technically duplicated if they are not specified.

-=Brother Praetus=-

 

 

Follow my train of thought and then refute it with a written rule if you can do so.  Otherwise, I'll recognize that your  "shouldn't be permitted" statement is merely your opinion.

1)  Fortress World allows the selection of Hatred (Orks).

2)  The Hand of War allows the selection of Hatred (Orks).

3)  Nothing I've found in the rules says I can't voluntarily select a duplicate Talent (or same Group within a Talent) when it's an available option.

4)  I now have a duplicate Talent, with two selections of Hatred (Orks).

5)  Per the rules, the second selection of Hatred (Orks) is exchanged for Talented (Choose One).

 

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HappyDaze said:

 

Follow my train of thought and then refute it with a written rule if you can do so.  Otherwise, I'll recognize that the "shouldn't' be permitted" you stated is merely your opinion.

1)  Fortress World allows the selection of Hatred (Orks).

2)  The Hand of War allows the selection of Hatred (Orks).

3)  Nothing says I can't voluntarily the same Talent (or same Group within a Talent).

4)  I now have a duplicate Talent, with two selections of Hatred (Orks).

5)  Per the rules, the second selection of Hatred (Orks) is exchanged for Talented (Choose One).

 

If you already have Hatred (Orks), you cannot chose it again. The rules state that you can only chose purchase a talent once, and Hatred (Orks) would mean you couldn't chose it again, but could chose any other Hatred (blah). Therefore:

Fortress World allows the selection of Hatred (Orks)

Hand of War allows the selection of Hatred (chose one, cannot chose Orks)

You now have two Hatred talents.

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MILLANDSON said:

HappyDaze said:

 

 

Follow my train of thought and then refute it with a written rule if you can do so.  Otherwise, I'll recognize that the "shouldn't' be permitted" you stated is merely your opinion.

1)  Fortress World allows the selection of Hatred (Orks).

2)  The Hand of War allows the selection of Hatred (Orks).

3)  Nothing says I can't voluntarily the same Talent (or same Group within a Talent).

4)  I now have a duplicate Talent, with two selections of Hatred (Orks).

5)  Per the rules, the second selection of Hatred (Orks) is exchanged for Talented (Choose One).

 

 

 

If you already have Hatred (Orks), you cannot chose it again. The rules state that you can only chose purchase a talent once, and Hatred (Orks) would mean you couldn't chose it again, but could chose any other Hatred (blah). Therefore:

Fortress World allows the selection of Hatred (Orks)

Hand of War allows the selection of Hatred (chose one, cannot chose Orks)

You now have two Hatred talents.

Please show me a quote, because I can't find anything written that says what you suggest.  I know you can't end up with duplicate Talents as a general thing, but there are specific rules for duplication in the Origin Path, and nothing seems to suggest that you can't opt to duplicate to make use of this rule.

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HappyDaze said:

Since it provides more options that add to the enjoyment of the player making the character without blocking fun or unbalancing the game in regards to the other characters, then it's not necessarily bad rules lawyering.lengua.gif

Whenever it adds to the enjoyment or not is up to debate and should be taken up with your GM and your group. More options it gives but Talented (Chose one) is a very useful talent.

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Leogun_91 said:

HappyDaze said:

 

Since it provides more options that add to the enjoyment of the player making the character without blocking fun or unbalancing the game in regards to the other characters, then it's not necessarily bad rules lawyering.lengua.gif

 

Whenever it adds to the enjoyment or not is up to debate and should be taken up with your GM and your group. More options it gives but Talented (Chose one) is a very useful talent.

 

How is having more options that let you play the character that you want to play - in a manner which doesn't do anything to disturb the setting or the other character's ability to contribute - not a positive thing?  I don't think you could possibly debate this in a reasonable manner.

And yes, Talented (Choose One) is a very useful Talent.  Why is that a problem?  Shouldn't characters want to have useful Talents?

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HappyDaze said:

Leogun_91 said:

 

HappyDaze said:

 

Since it provides more options that add to the enjoyment of the player making the character without blocking fun or unbalancing the game in regards to the other characters, then it's not necessarily bad rules lawyering.lengua.gif

 

Whenever it adds to the enjoyment or not is up to debate and should be taken up with your GM and your group. More options it gives but Talented (Chose one) is a very useful talent.

 

 

 

How is having more options that let you play the character that you want to play - in a manner which doesn't do anything to disturb the setting or the other character's ability to contribute - not a positive thing?  I don't think you could possibly debate this in a reasonable manner.

And yes, Talented (Choose One) is a very useful Talent.  Why is that a problem?  Shouldn't characters want to have useful Talents?

It could be a positive thing, but it doesn't need to be. If discussed with the GM beforehand and approved I see nothing wrong with it but if someone turned up with this to my game I would make them chose another hatred instead as that makes things 1) more intresting and 2) is what that character origin path step is balanced to use.  If the player gave me a good reason not to have another hatred I would approve it but the chances for that improves much if I'm told so in advance.

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Leogun_91 said:

HappyDaze said:

 

Since it provides more options that add to the enjoyment of the player making the character without blocking fun or unbalancing the game in regards to the other characters, then it's not necessarily bad rules lawyering.lengua.gif

 

Whenever it adds to the enjoyment or not is up to debate and should be taken up with your GM and your group. More options it gives but Talented (Chose one) is a very useful talent.

 

 

It's a very useful option. For instance, is there any other way to get Talented (Dodge) without an elite advance ?

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Bilateralrope said:

It's a very useful option. For instance, is there any other way to get Talented (Dodge) without an elite advance ?

Yes, there are actually several ways to get Talented (Dodge) either as Career advances or in the Origin Path.

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Leogun_91 said:

I would make them chose another hatred instead as that makes things 1) more intresting and 2) is what that character origin path step is balanced to use.  If the player gave me a good reason not to have another hatred I would approve it but the chances for that improves much if I'm told so in advance.

 

 

 

 

#1 is totally a matter of opinion.  Since it's the player's character, it's not entirely appropriate for the GM to decide what's more interesting.  The GM can do that for all of the NPCs, but let the player make that choice for his/her one character.

#2 is simply  bull - the Origin Path is intended to allow for Talented (Choose One) so it's as balanced as any of the other options.

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I agree with Millandson.  If you have a Talent with option choices, you may not choose an "illegal" selection in order to gain Talented. 

The rules are not forcing the player to take the exact same Talent (for no benefit), which is what that rule was meant to alleviate. 

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HappyDaze said:

#1 is totally a matter of opinion. Since it's the player's character, it's not entirely appropriate for the GM to decide what's more interesting. The GM can do that for all of the NPCs, but let the player make that choice for his/her one character.
Yes it is but just as it is not only up for the GM it is not only up for the player. This way to do it was clearly not intended when the origin path was made.
 

HappyDaze said:

#2 is simply bull - the Origin Path is intended to allow for Talented (Choose One) so it's as balanced as any of the other options.
It is, but it is not intended to allow it that way, the origin path option that offers Talented (Chose One) gives no other bonuses while The Hand of War also gives Leap Up or a Weapon Training to balance the double-edged hatred talent.
 

And I think you should have it as a golden rule to ask your GM when the rules aren't clear. I'd for one would prefer if a player asked me rather then an internet forum.

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dvang said:

I agree with Millandson.  If you have a Talent with option choices, you may not choose an "illegal" selection in order to gain Talented. 

The rules are not forcing the player to take the exact same Talent (for no benefit), which is what that rule was meant to alleviate. 

There is nothing "illegal" about selecting a duplicate Talent.  If you agree with Millandson's houseruling, fine for you.

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dvang said:

I agree with Millandson.  If you have a Talent with option choices, you may not choose an "illegal" selection in order to gain Talented. 

The rules are not forcing the player to take the exact same Talent (for no benefit), which is what that rule was meant to alleviate. 

Agreed.

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