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Elric91

Lily Chen clarification

35 posts in this topic

jgt7771 said:

ColtsFan76 said:

She would gain Max Sanity, not gain a sainity point. 

 

...uh...

Think about what you just wrote there, ColtsFan.  I suppose it depends on how you interpret separate paragraphs within the Special Ability box...but isn't that exactly what Lily's ability is?

Alright, I guess it is a bit more tricky than I thought. 

With a typical investigator, Duke gives a boost to your Maximum Sanity AMOUNT, not your actual Sanity Points (the exception being during setup when he grants both).  So she would go up from a Max Sanity of 7 to a Max Sanity of 8.  If she were sitting at 6 Max Sanity points and acquired Duke, she would go up to 7 Max Sanity points.  Does that mean she gains an extra Sanity if she were 6 Sanity points or less?  I am not sure.

Her ability says she gains a Sanity Point when "she increases her Maximum."  Technically, she is not increasing it, the Ally is.

But if you say that she should activate that ability whenever her sanity goes up, then she shoudl get the free point of Sanity as well.  I see the argument but not sure I can buy it just yet.

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ColtsFan76 said:

jgt7771 said:

 

ColtsFan76 said:

She would gain Max Sanity, not gain a sainity point. 

 

...uh...

Think about what you just wrote there, ColtsFan.  I suppose it depends on how you interpret separate paragraphs within the Special Ability box...but isn't that exactly what Lily's ability is?

 

 

Alright, I guess it is a bit more tricky than I thought. 

With a typical investigator, Duke gives a boost to your Maximum Sanity AMOUNT, not your actual Sanity Points (the exception being during setup when he grants both).  So she would go up from a Max Sanity of 7 to a Max Sanity of 8.  If she were sitting at 6 Max Sanity points and acquired Duke, she would go up to 7 Max Sanity points.  Does that mean she gains an extra Sanity if she were 6 Sanity points or less?  I am not sure.

Her ability says she gains a Sanity Point when "she increases her Maximum."  Technically, she is not increasing it, the Ally is.

But if you say that she should activate that ability whenever her sanity goes up, then she shoudl get the free point of Sanity as well.  I see the argument but not sure I can buy it just yet.

Yar! I mis-typed when I was writing about Duke, and did in fact mean max sanity. And I still think my interpretation is correct. Though "she" is not causing the the max sanity increas, Duke is, it is "her" max sanity which is increased. Therefore "she" has the effect of having her max sanity increased, and "she" gets the extra brain token to go along with the increase.

Ya 'all have a Happy New Year!

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Ahh, but her ability does state that  "Each time Lily increases her maximum Sanity, she gains 1 Sanity. Each time she increases her maximum Stamina, she gains 1 Stamina.

 

So Duke increasing it isn't the same as Lily increasing it.

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I think it was written that way because her maximums were going to be changing a lot, specifically at her own whim. Personally, I believe her ability applies to any maximum increases, including Duke and Brinton. But if thematically it is incompatible with her Yin and Yang (which is internal), then I could see that ruling.

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Reading the whole card again, it does look like the increase of the current numbers is a function of her moving her slider. Somehow I was thinking it was a separate ability.

I'm still trying to figure a way she can work with Yig and not get an auto-win. The only solution I see is to only allow a single increase in stamina or sanity a turn depending on which direction the slider moves. However, this greatly weakens her only ability.

Is Yig the only thing that she breaks? I can't think of anything else. Perhaps it is easier to just alter Yig.

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thorgrim said:

Ahh, but her ability does state that  "Each time Lily increases her maximum Sanity, she gains 1 Sanity. Each time she increases her maximum Stamina, she gains 1 Stamina.

 

So Duke increasing it isn't the same as Lily increasing it.

Which is the point I am trying to make.  Duke doesn't give people sanity if he is acquired mid game.  He just gives them the potential to go higher.  So in the case of getting paired with Lily, I think his intent shoudl still be followed: she has the potential to increase sanity but does not automatically gain it.

Thematic arguments are always weak, I know.  But her skill is a regeneration of sorts.  Duke's ability is keeping you sane by having a loyal companion.  Because she gets a dog doesn't mean her regeneration kicks in.

Also, her actual Sanity skill slider does not go up when Duke is acquired.  Otherwise she would have to drop her corrseponding Stamina - which isn't how Duke works.  So she doesn't slide the Skill marker, she just adds +1.

I am still sticking with Duke doesn't giver her a Sanity point.

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And for a further piece of supporting evidence, a quote from Kevin Wilson himself on Lily Chen's ability:

She only adjusts her SAN/STAM based on the final position of her slider.

 

Since Duke doesn't move her slider, she doesn't heal a point of Sanity.

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thorgrim said:

And for a further piece of supporting evidence, a quote from Kevin Wilson himself on Lily Chen's ability:

She only adjusts her SAN/STA based on the final position of her slider.

 Since Duke doesn't move her slider, she doesn't heal a point of Sanity.

 

That quote is out of context, and placed back into context, it means that her points are healed when you stop moving the sliders, as opposed to being healed with each intermediary click—negating the possibility for a "slider toggle san/sta heal" in one upkeep.

His answer there, as well as the original explanation for her use of a slider, were ambiguous enough to allow multiple interpretations. For example, the quote you cited above implies that if the slider end two spaces away that she will heal two points of that stat. But it could just as easily mean one point regardless, just noting that it's either a point of sanity or stamina—never both.

I'm still in the school that believes she should receive only one point so that she's not immune to Yig's attack (Epic Battle notwithstanding).

As for the relevant topic, I find ColtsFan's interpretation as most convincing, and I may stop allowing a point heal with Duke or Brinton (as if we'd ever had them join Lily before).

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Just to play Devil's Advocate, I recall an old thread with a debate I lost regarding those Gate Encounter cards that close Gates for you.  The specific one that comes to mind is a Speed Check to see if you can make it through a collapsing Gate before it closes on you.  Pass: Return to Arkham.  Fail: Lost in Time and Space.  Either way, Gate is closed.

The debate was whether or not one could Seal the Gate after it was closed.  I said no, because it wasn't YOU who was closing the Gate, it was the CARD that was closing the Gate.  Rather quickly, I was denounced, outnumbered, and overruled, possibly by Kevin himself, and those Gates were allowed to be Sealed.  (Unless I am mistaken?)

So the blending of "personal pronouns", "play as written", and "thematically correct" is a somewhat fractured device... gran_risa.gif

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Count me up as someone who openly scoffs at people who try to semantically differentiate a character doing something vs. a character doing something because another card gave them a benefit allowing that something to be done. That's not just wrong, it's insultingly silly semantic finagling. What's next? Are people going to try to convince us that weapon cards ignore Physical Resistance because they affect the combat check and thus aren't directly benefiting "you?" It's an empty line of reasoning, a senseless exercise in armchair formal logical semantics on a game that is written in natural English and isn't even subject to such  formalities.

 

Now that being said, while I 100% support the idea that Lily as written gains a Sanity point when she picks up Duke (which honestly everyone should get anyway, because Duke is such a weak ally), I think it equally obvious that the concept sketch of the errata that Lily will get (eventually) would exclude such a gain. Kevin said that she was going to be limited to gaining based on the final position during Upkeep. And while we genuinely don't know whether this is intended to put a stop to twiddling for 1 Stamina and 1 Sanity or to globally reduce her to a gain of one Stamina or one Sanity each turn - the fact remains that either way she's limited to only gaining Stamina or Sanity during upkeep which is a time that one rarely gets Duke. So if sh picks up Duke during the Arkham Encounters phase, she wouldn't get a Sanity point because it isn't the end of Upkeep by definition.

 

-Frank

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