Castle Black / The Wall

[Toqtamish 3,643]

Two questions:

1) How many times can Castle Blacks response be used to reduce the next NW character, just once per marshalling phase or multiple times. Does this apply to setup as well ?

2) Does the character being put into the challenge by the Wall have to have the correct icon for the challenge type?

[FATMOUSE 0]

1) You can use the Response whenever you have played a Night's Watch character from your hand.  If you could only use it once it would say so (i.e. limit once per phase).  As for setup:

FAQ (2.1) Card Effects in Setup
Cards revealed during setup do not trigger card effects. This includes cards that contain the text "When put into play" or "When played from your hand." No actions may be taken during the setup phase.

2) No, the character does not need the icon type of the current challenge to be able to participate in the challenge via The Wall.  The character only needs to be a Night's Watch character.

If I'm not mistaken, you can't use a NW character via The Wall if it's unique and you already control it (i.e. Jon Snow).  Maybe you can and it becomes a dupe, which you can discard at the end of the phase if you don't want that unique character going back to your hand? I'm not sure.

[ktom 598]

FATMOUSE said:

FAQ (2.1) Card Effects in Setup

Cards revealed during setup do not trigger card effects. This includes cards that contain the text "When put into play" or "When played from your hand." No actions may be taken during the setup phase.

Keep in mind also that you don't actually play any cards during Setup, so the text on Castle Black wouldn't apply anyway.

[Rogue30 60]

FATMOUSE said:

If I'm not mistaken, you can't use a NW character via The Wall if it's unique and you already control it (i.e. Jon Snow).  Maybe you can and it becomes a dupe, which you can discard at the end of the phase if you don't want that unique character going back to your hand? I'm not sure.

You can put second Jon via The Wall (it becomes duplicate then). A the end of the phase you cannot play any responses (including dupes).

[FATMOUSE 0]

Rogue30 said:

You can put second Jon via The Wall (it becomes duplicate then). A the end of the phase you cannot play any responses (including dupes).

Ah yes, I knew there was something that I was missing. Thanks.

[ktom 598]

FATMOUSE said:

If I'm not mistaken, you can't use a NW character via The Wall if it's unique and you already control it (i.e. Jon Snow).  Maybe you can and it becomes a dupe, which you can discard at the end of the phase if you don't want that unique character going back to your hand? I'm not sure.

Well, Rogue30 is correct that the second copy you put into play with The Wall does become a dupe. He's also correct that you cannot play any Response effects - including dupes - during the "at the end of the phase" action window.

What I'm not sure about is why you would need to. When you use The Wall to put the second copy of Jon Snow into play, the "return to hand" effect of The Wall only applies to that card. Since the "character" left play by becoming a dupe, there is nothing to return to your hand. I'm not sure why you would think that using The Wall to put Jon Snow #2 into play - and having it become a dupe on Jon Snow #1 - would transfer the "return to hand" effect of The Wall to Jon Snow #1. It doesn't work that way. Both the original Jon Snow and the dupe would remain in play at the end of the phase.

Of course, short of drawing the second copy of Jon Snow after your turn in Marshaling, I don't see a whole lot of point in using The Wall to dupe a unique Night's Watch character instead of just duping it during Marshaling. With any luck, I'll have a better card to use The Wall's "limit once per challenge" effect on.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

Agreed, I would not use it to bring out a dupe, I would use it to bring out a non unique or a different unique to actually have an impact in the challenge.

[DreamKing 0]

i don't understand why the wall can put duplicates into play. can you please clarify?

[ktom 598]

The rules for unique cards read: 

"Each player may
only have one copy of a unique card in play.
Thus, you cannot put into play or take control of
a unique card which you already own or control
(except for duplicates).

You also may not play or take control of a unique
card if there is a copy of that card in your dead
pile, or if your opponent has taken control of
another copy of that unique card from you."

This rule is restated - and expanded upon - in the FAQ in a discussion about taking control of unique cards:

"(3.27) Unique Cards and Changing Control
You may not play, put into play, or take control
of a unique card already in play that you
own or control (except for putting a duplicate
on a card that you own and control), or that is
in your dead pile.

Thus you cannot take control of a unique character
that you already have in play. You cannot
play a unique card if your opponent has taken
control of another copy of that unique card
that you own.

Duplicates can only be played or put into play
on cards you own and control."

So, you can see from the FAQ's entry - where it talks about putting a duplicate into play - that there are more ways to get a duplicate into play than playing from your hand for 0-gold during your turn of Marshaling. They can be "put into play" as well. This happens when you attempt to "put into play" a copy of a unique card that you already have in play That second copy becomes a duplicate - because as a duplicate is the only way that the second copy can legally enter play. The Wall puts characters into play, so it is subject to this part of the rules for unique cards.

So, because of the "except for duplicates" wording of the rules, it is not actually illegal to use The Wall's ability to jump in a unique character that you already own and control. That second copy becomes a dupe on the first, rather than a defender in the challenge. It's not a particularly good play in most situations, but it is legal.

 

[DreamKing 0]

understood, thanks for the answer!

so, by the same rule, qyburn may bring to life a unique character that i already control and attach it as a duplicate. and the duplicate would not leave play at the end of the phase. same situation, right?

 

[ktom 598]

Kissing_Crimson said:

so, by the same rule, qyburn may bring to life a unique character that i already control and attach it as a duplicate. and the duplicate would not leave play at the end of the phase. same situation, right?

For Qyburn, no. The rules say that you can only put duplicates on cards that you own and control. This holds true for the card that becomes the duplicate as well as the card that is being duplicated. Since Qyburn always takes a card out of your opponent's dead pile, it will never be a card that you both own and control, so it is not eligible to be a dupe on one of your cards.

However, it would work with a card like Jon Arryn or Gates of Winterfell.

[Arthur Lannister 0]

Same type of question: Can you bring back a copy of Melisandre with the plot "Powers long asleep" if there is other copy of Mel in the dead pile (due to, let's say, Aegon's Hill ability) ?

[ktom 598]

No. Of course not. If there are 2 copies in your dead pile, the second one puts you in violation of the rules for unique.

Look at it this way: if your entire dead pile consists of 2 copies of Mel and someone asks "how many characters are there in your dead pile?" the answer is "Two," isn't it?

[Bolzano2 0]

 What if there is only one copy of Melisandre in my dead pile?

Doesn't the FAQ forbids me to put into play a card if it is already in my dead pile (FAQ 3.27)?

Both "Powers long asleep" and the event "To be a dragon" do not contradict the rule that the Unique characters may not be put into play if they are already in the dead pile.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

You could bring back that one yes. That is the whole intention of that plot direct from the article:

From our developer Nate French: "This plot card is a focal point for Holy-based decks. It also allows you to build a deck around a key character like Melisandre. It is probably best to plan on playing it late but not last (rounds 4-6), so that you can bring your character back an additional time when the plots recycle. Baratheon has this tendency to start fast and fizzle late and this gives them some nice late game resilience." [ Thanks, Nate! ]

[Bolzano2 0]

 Ok Nate decided. However the FAQ seems to say that you can't bring back Unique characters.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

You cannot play a copy of a unique character that is in your dead pile from like your hand, this is bringing a character out of the dead pile and into play.

[Bolzano2 0]

 The FAQ (3.27) specifically says you cannot also bring back a unique card from your dead pile if it is already in there.

 

Although this plot and To be a Dragon allow you to bring back a character from your dead pile, it does not contradict the rule that this character may not be unique.

 

 

[Toqtamish 3,643]

I get what you are trying to say but I really don't see why you are arguing the point, we have the games creator saying in the preview article that it can be used this way. Most game do have in them that if a card overrides a rule the card is correct. Also that FAQ entry is not entirely relevant as once you bring it back from the dead pile it won't be a case of having one in play and one in dead pile. This is moving a character from one zone to another not creating a 2nd copy of a unique character, its the same character just in different zone now.

[Arthur Lannister 0]

What Bolzano want to say is that the card doesn't contradict the rule, so there's no matter of overriding. The point is, Nate says "white" but the rule clearly says "black".

 

A rule errata is needed to correct this point, that's all...

[Rogue30 60]

Bolzano said:

However the FAQ seems to say that you can't bring back Unique characters.

That's not what FAQ says. The FAQ says that you cannot put unique card into play if another copy of that card is in dead pile.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

I don't see it as conflicting, this is not playing a duplicate of a unique in your dead pile as a separate character, this is making a dead character no longer dead. The 3.27 FAQ entry does not conflict with this. As its not putting into a play a card in your dead pile, its the same character moving out of the dead pile. Theres never a portion during this action where you have two of the same unique character in play at any time.

posting faq entry so we have it here

(3.27) Unique Cards and Changing Control
You may not play, put into play, or take control
of a unique card already in play that you
own or control (except for putting a duplicate
on a card that you own and control), or that is
in your dead pile.
Thus you cannot take control of a unique character
that you already have in play. You cannot
play a unique card if your opponent has taken
control of another copy of that unique card
that you own.
Duplicates can only be played or put into play
on cards you own and control.

[Bolzano2 0]

First, I agree with you that Nate decided how to play these cards and I have always played in this way. The point as Arthur says is that the FAQ entry does not allow you to play those cards this way. Only Nate's statement did : that's why Arthur is talking about this could need official clarification.

Ok let's just read what matters for this in the FAQ entry :

"You may not play, put into play, [...] a unique card [...] that is in your dead pile."

Seems pretty clear to me that when you check the play restrictions of "To be a Dragon" you cannot bring back any Unique character.

The FAQ does NOT say "a copy that is your dead pile" : that is from the rules book. My oppinion is that they might have omitted it in the FAQ.

 

@Toqtamish : it's not about having two copies of the same Unique card in play at the same time. Unless my English reading is bad (which is likely), the FAQ says too that you cannot put a Unique character into play if it is in your dead pile. As written is the FAQ, iIt doesn't matter if it would make you have 2 copies in play or not.

[Toqtamish 3,643]

But this is bringing that card out of the dead pile and into play, therefore its no longer in the dead pile to affect this rule you quote.

[eloooooooi 0]

Bolzano's point is that play restrictions have to be checked before "moving" the character. Therefore, you cannot put that character into play because there's a copy of that same character in the dead pile (the very same one you're trying to "move").