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Maxim C. Gatling

Two options for Female Space Marines

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H.B.M.C. said:

It's not 'nerd rage' Fizzy - I'm simply stunned that someone can go on and on for pages despite concrete evidence that his viewpoint is well... so unbelievably wrong. It boggles the mind.

And the Squats will rise again, **** it! lengua.gif

BYE

 

No offense intended to anyone and certainly not aimed at anyone in particular but it seems to me that "fluff" lawyers are just as bad as rule lawyers.

 

Alex

 

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H.B.M.C. said:



Wha...?

No... this whole conversation is the very definition of 'mutually exclusive'. There are no female Marines. It's not a debate, there are no 'loop holes', it has been categorically and explicitly stated that Marines are always male. There's no wiggle room. There's no leeway. There's no chance that somewhere, out there, in the fluff, that they exist. They don't. They simply don't.

If you want to have Female Marines, then, as I said before, that's fine - you and your group can do whatever you want - but in doing so you are breaking the established fluff and not playing within the confines of the 40K universe. I make no judgements about people who do that and, again, to repeat myself, you and your group are completely free to come up with whatever you want, but this isn't a debate. It is an absolute.

There are no female Marines. There just aren't.

BYE

 

Like (thumbs up).

These people should play White Wolf games.  It would fit their egalitarian mindset better.

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Fizzywig said:

 

Just to add to the nerd-rage of this tread heres an idea, no female space marines, but you could play a feamle squat warlord in exo-armor :P

 

 

 

I would laugh my ass off if this was allowed. Particularly since GW has been retconning squats hard. (See Gunheads)


And: frankly, most of them have been unreasonable. Rather then posting and trying to actually debate my interpretation of this particular aspect of fluff, (21st founding being sufficiently different from 'standard' marines that a FSM chapter might not be impossible) most (some of them have made the attempt, but are unfortunately in the minority) have simply screamed that "YOU CAAAAAANT! Page x Says No Girls Allowed! IT'LL RUIN 40K FOREVAAAA!!!! You're Not Playing 40k if you allow THIS ABOMINATION!"


I started on the FSM thing here because two of the female members of our group requested it (since I don't allow cross gender playing at my table. Too many games derailed by silliness) because they were tired of dying all the time as ascended DH characters. (the third has been playing a seriously OP psyker and has been keeping up with the Marines so long as she stays out of the line of fire.)


And you say 'egalitarian' as though it were a bad thing...


(And OWoD is Tuesdays, RT Sat and DW Sun)

 

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BaronIveagh said:

Fizzywig said:

 

Just to add to the nerd-rage of this tread heres an idea, no female space marines, but you could play a feamle squat warlord in exo-armor :P

 

 

 

I would laugh my ass off if this was allowed. Particularly since GW has been retconning squats hard. (See Gunheads)


And: frankly, most of them have been unreasonable. Rather then posting and trying to actually debate my interpretation of this particular aspect of fluff, (21st founding being sufficiently different from 'standard' marines that a FSM chapter might not be impossible) most (some of them have made the attempt, but are unfortunately in the minority) have simply screamed that "YOU CAAAAAANT! Page x Says No Girls Allowed! IT'LL RUIN 40K FOREVAAAA!!!! You're Not Playing 40k if you allow THIS ABOMINATION!"


I started on the FSM thing here because two of the female members of our group requested it (since I don't allow cross gender playing at my table. Too many games derailed by silliness) because they were tired of dying all the time as ascended DH characters. (the third has been playing a seriously OP psyker and has been keeping up with the Marines so long as she stays out of the line of fire.)


And you say 'egalitarian' as though it were a bad thing...


(And OWoD is Tuesdays, RT Sat and DW Sun)

 

So the real issue is you dont let your players role play the game, you force them to play the same sex.

And you are correct, the 21st Founding are not standard space marines, heck they may not be real space marines at all. Thus, there are no real female space marines.

I do not believe that letting female space marines would ruin 40k forevaaaaa..... its just that they dont exist in the setting as written and changing that basis, that one hard fact that is present in every version of 40K since day one, sets a precedent for anything and everything to be changed on a whim.

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ak-73 said:

No offense intended to anyone and certainly not aimed at anyone in particular but it seems to me that "fluff" lawyers are just as bad as rule lawyers.


I don't necessarily disagree with you, ak, and I'll be one of the first people to tell you that the fluff is no sacred and that GW can (and does) change things at a whim, usually to sell new model kits, as everything they do simply exists to service the sales of models, but there are even some things with them that are core and unmoving.

Marines being male is one of those things and - once again, to reiterate for the third or fourth time - I'm not saying that someone can't go out there and do their own thing with (mythical) female Marines, but the fact remains that within the confines of the 40K Universe, they simply do not exist. End of story.

BYE

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H.B.M.C. said:

ak-73 said:

No offense intended to anyone and certainly not aimed at anyone in particular but it seems to me that "fluff" lawyers are just as bad as rule lawyers.



I don't necessarily disagree with you, ak, and I'll be one of the first people to tell you that the fluff is no sacred and that GW can (and does) change things at a whim, usually to sell new model kits, as everything they do simply exists to service the sales of models, but there are even some things with them that are core and unmoving.

Marines being male is one of those things and - once again, to reiterate for the third or fourth time - I'm not saying that someone can't go out there and do their own thing with (mythical) female Marines, but the fact remains that within the confines of the 40K Universe, they simply do not exist. End of story.

BYE

 

 

I would like to slightly change that central statement of yours:

"...but the fact remains that within the confines of the official 40K Universe, they simply are not known to exist."

 

Alex

 

 

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Might I suggest that both sides give it up since neither will convince the other. This thread has gone on long enough. I've enjoyed it for the train wreck that it is, but perhaps its time to move along since you are just wasting your time at this point.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

 

 

So the real issue is you dont let your players role play the game, you force them to play the same sex.

 

 

Well, after the "Rocky Horror Roleplaying Session", the players strongly suggested that I adopt it as a new rule so that might never happen again.  I approved it and have enforced it ever since.

 

To give you some idea: they were playing Tzimisce.  All of them.  and, yes, it did end with everyone singing Science Fiction-Double Feature.  They had gotten very drunk as the game went on.

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BaronIveagh said:

Fizzywig said:

 

Just to add to the nerd-rage of this tread heres an idea, no female space marines, but you could play a feamle squat warlord in exo-armor :P

 

 

 

I would laugh my ass off if this was allowed. Particularly since GW has been retconning squats hard. (See Gunheads)


And: frankly, most of them have been unreasonable. Rather then posting and trying to actually debate my interpretation of this particular aspect of fluff, (21st founding being sufficiently different from 'standard' marines that a FSM chapter might not be impossible) most (some of them have made the attempt, but are unfortunately in the minority) have simply screamed that "YOU CAAAAAANT! Page x Says No Girls Allowed! IT'LL RUIN 40K FOREVAAAA!!!! You're Not Playing 40k if you allow THIS ABOMINATION!"


I started on the FSM thing here because two of the female members of our group requested it (since I don't allow cross gender playing at my table. Too many games derailed by silliness) because they were tired of dying all the time as ascended DH characters. (the third has been playing a seriously OP psyker and has been keeping up with the Marines so long as she stays out of the line of fire.)


And you say 'egalitarian' as though it were a bad thing...


(And OWoD is Tuesdays, RT Sat and DW Sun)

 

You don't allow cross-gender play?  Well there goes whatever credibility you and your FSM arguments had in my eyes. 

At least your obstinate rationalization on the issue makes sense now, as you apparently painted yourself into a corner and needed to come up with some kind of solution...

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Atheosis said:

 

 

You don't allow cross-gender play?  Well there goes whatever credibility you and your FSM arguments had in my eyes. 

At least your obstinate rationalization on the issue makes sense now, as you apparently painted yourself into a corner and needed to come up with some kind of solution...

 

 

 

Atheosis: One, I've actually held this position before the DW RPG ever exisited.  As HBMC might recall from my posts re this on Dakka.  I've been a supporter of Doc Thunder et al long before FFG ever even had the license. 

Two, you've made it abundently clear that no argument has any credibility in your opinon, so yeah, big loss.

Three: the rule was made at the players request.  See above.

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BaronIveagh said:

 

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

 

So the real issue is you dont let your players role play the game, you force them to play the same sex.

 

 

Well, after the "Rocky Horror Roleplaying Session", the players strongly suggested that I adopt it as a new rule so that might never happen again.  I approved it and have enforced it ever since.

 

To give you some idea: they were playing Tzimisce.  All of them.  and, yes, it did end with everyone singing Science Fiction-Double Feature.  They had gotten very drunk as the game went on.

If they had fun doing it...is this really an issue? ( not that I endorse Rocky Horror in any form).

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SinisterCheshire said:

 

BaronIveagh said:

 

 

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

 

So the real issue is you dont let your players role play the game, you force them to play the same sex.

 

 

Well, after the "Rocky Horror Roleplaying Session", the players strongly suggested that I adopt it as a new rule so that might never happen again.  I approved it and have enforced it ever since.

 

To give you some idea: they were playing Tzimisce.  All of them.  and, yes, it did end with everyone singing Science Fiction-Double Feature.  They had gotten very drunk as the game went on.

 

 

If they had fun doing it...is this really an issue? ( not that I endorse Rocky Horror in any form).

 

 

 

Because when everyone sobered up and started to remember the things they did with thier characters, they were throughly squicked.  Thus: "No Beer, No Fishnets" was added as the 13th Rule.

 

Consider: They were playing Tzimisce in OWoD...  Storytellers familer with Sabbat can tell you how bad this can get without Beer and without breaking character....

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What I always found a challenge was to work within the sandbox, in this case the fluff says no FSM's,. So how do you get a female character that is strong, unique, challenging and interesting to play, who can work with the boys  (I too dont allow cross gender characters, but I have girls in my group). Juat saying your a FSM I just feel is a little bit like skipping over the fence where its at the lowest, its un-elegant and pose no challenge.

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BaronIveagh said:

Because when everyone sobered up and started to remember the things they did with thier characters, they were throughly squicked.  Thus: "No Beer, No Fishnets" was added as the 13th Rule.

 

Consider: They were playing Tzimisce in OWoD...  Storytellers familer with Sabbat can tell you how bad this can get without Beer and without breaking character....

How is that squicky? Sounds like a laugh to me. As for Tzimisce, it depends on how sensible they are and how much they push the powers to beyond, perhaps, the authors intent was. Personally I preferred Malkavians (when played right, they are creepy as all hell).

As I said though, I just honestly don't get people forbidding cross-gender roleplay. To me, it just ends up looking like some people are insecure with their gender/sexuality and so shut off a whole interesting section of roleplaying so they don't have to confront that insecurity.

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MILLANDSON said:

 

How is that squicky? Sounds like a laugh to me. As for Tzimisce, it depends on how sensible they are and how much they push the powers to beyond, perhaps, the authors intent was. Personally I preferred Malkavians (when played right, they are creepy as all hell).

 

You don't watch much hentai, do you?  Let's just say that things were done with ghouls that went into slaaneshi chaos spawn territory...

 

Remember the WWII fluff in the splatbook with the tank with human innards?  They trancended that....

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BaronIveagh said:

SinisterCheshire said:

 

BaronIveagh said:

 

 

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

 

So the real issue is you dont let your players role play the game, you force them to play the same sex.

 

 

Well, after the "Rocky Horror Roleplaying Session", the players strongly suggested that I adopt it as a new rule so that might never happen again.  I approved it and have enforced it ever since.

 

To give you some idea: they were playing Tzimisce.  All of them.  and, yes, it did end with everyone singing Science Fiction-Double Feature.  They had gotten very drunk as the game went on.

 

 

If they had fun doing it...is this really an issue? ( not that I endorse Rocky Horror in any form).

 

 

 

Because when everyone sobered up and started to remember the things they did with thier characters, they were throughly squicked.  Thus: "No Beer, No Fishnets" was added as the 13th Rule.

 

Consider: They were playing Tzimisce in OWoD...  Storytellers familer with Sabbat can tell you how bad this can get without Beer and without breaking character....

That's logical.  Ban the cross-gender roleplaying, not the alcohol.  It was clearly the cross-gender roleplaying...

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BaronIveagh said:

MILLANDSON said:

 

 

How is that squicky? Sounds like a laugh to me. As for Tzimisce, it depends on how sensible they are and how much they push the powers to beyond, perhaps, the authors intent was. Personally I preferred Malkavians (when played right, they are creepy as all hell).

 

 

 

You don't watch much hentai, do you?  Let's just say that things were done with ghouls that went into slaaneshi chaos spawn territory...

 

Remember the WWII fluff in the splatbook with the tank with human innards?  They trancended that....

I always played a Tzimisce. I was very sorry they removed them.

What happens in Old World of Darkness Sabbat...stays in Old World of Darkness Sabbat.

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Atheosis said:

 

That's logical.  Ban the cross-gender roleplaying, not the alcohol.  It was clearly the cross-gender roleplaying...

 

 

 

Actually both were banned.  See earlier post.  Again.  (And since the players approached the GM about adding this rule, acting like this is somehow my doing is silly)

 

SC: Indeed.  (Or in the case of OWoD Werewolf, what happens in Pentex STAYS in Pentex)

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BaronIveagh said:

MILLANDSON said:

 

 

How is that squicky? Sounds like a laugh to me. As for Tzimisce, it depends on how sensible they are and how much they push the powers to beyond, perhaps, the authors intent was. Personally I preferred Malkavians (when played right, they are creepy as all hell).

 

 

 

You don't watch much hentai, do you?  Let's just say that things were done with ghouls that went into slaaneshi chaos spawn territory...

 

Remember the WWII fluff in the splatbook with the tank with human innards?  They trancended that....

Actually, the very first anime I ever watched (I was 15) was Legend of the Overfiend, so hentai doesn't bother me in the slightest. I actually find it fairly amusing how worked up people get about it. That might just be because I'm jaded though.

As for the tank with human innards? Quite a lot can be more twisted than that. I honestly never found the whole "Tzimisce are creepy" thing to be entirely true, all of the clans in V:tM could be just as creepy and messed up as the Tzimisce were. As I said, I generally found very well played Malkavians the most creepy, because they played on their insanity, and mental illness is one of the few things that actually scares me.

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MILLANDSON said:

 

Actually, the very first anime I ever watched (I was 15) was Legend of the Overfiend, so hentai doesn't bother me in the slightest. I actually find it fairly amusing how worked up people get about it. That might just be because I'm jaded though.

As for the tank with human innards? Quite a lot can be more twisted than that. I honestly never found the whole "Tzimisce are creepy" thing to be entirely true, all of the clans in V:tM could be just as creepy and messed up as the Tzimisce were. As I said, I generally found very well played Malkavians the most creepy, because they played on their insanity, and mental illness is one of the few things that actually scares me.

 

Legend of the Overfiend is very tame.

 

Think more La Blue Girl meets Bible Black in the Laboratories of the Umbrella Corporation during the last fifteen min of Akira.  The thing with nipples on a fifteen foot long bifurcated tongue growing out of each of it six eye sockets should let you know how far this went...

 

Being that several members of my group have been committed in the past, and I myself suffer from mental illness, you can understand why I don't find Malkavians scary in the least.

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ak-73 said:

I would like to slightly change that central statement of yours:

"...but the fact remains that within the confines of the official 40K Universe, they simply are not known to exist."



No. Do not exist.

There is no wiggle room.

BYE

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MILLANDSON said:

 

Fair enough, but I still don't see how cross-gender RP is the problem, as much as being completely off your **** preocupado.gif.

 

 

 

Probably didn't help, but previous to this, we had several RP session in a similer vein with everyone playing on gender and this was not an issue.  Then we did this and the crazy came boiling out.  We haven't had this issue since Rule 13 was imposed, so....

 

And please note: we don't all have the same issues or to the same degree.  I'm fairly stable, most of the time, to the point that I'm not medicated.  I just have to ware a pocket watch to keep reminding me that time is passing. 

 

HBMC will be declaring there are no FSM even if GW were to publish Codex: FSM and a whole line of minis to go with it.  We've had this convo on other boards, I could swear, and there's just something about the idea that seems to push his buttons. 

 

What baffles me is that he never tries to refute the reasoning of people who suggest how to get around the issue (other then I think the female primarch one, he and kan did make a strong argument against that one) other then to claim it says it's impossible.  Not: you're misinterpreting it and here's why...

 

peacemaker, with some prompting, has raised an interesting point about the 21st Founding and the possibility that some chapters of that founding might not, in fact, be Space Marines in the traditional sense.  (this would, technicaly, allow the 'No Female Space Marine' to be true, and still have female space marines.) 

Some chapters of this founding do, however, send marines to deathwatch.  So...

 

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H.B.M.C. said:

ak-73 said:

I would like to slightly change that central statement of yours:

 

"...but the fact remains that within the confines of the official 40K Universe, they simply are not known to exist."



No. Do not exist.

There is no wiggle room.

BYE

 

 

Dude you have made yourself known to have that opinion in every post. We get it...if your not going to say how it can be done then go make a thread and post your opinion there so I dont have to come across it. Because I am starting to think that your a child, which I know isnt right and I Apologize, but that is the mental image I am forming of you.

 

Thanks

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