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Maxim C. Gatling

Two options for Female Space Marines

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This was basically the solution I proposed earlier in the thread- yes it could technically be considered heresy and could trigger a purge, torture, the like.  But if the local watch commander/inquisitor/what have you decided that the female 'marine' was of use/a potent tool, was worth investigating more closely, etc. it's not out of the question that they would be allowed to stick around.

Yeah, the "Empire" would burn her to death, but not all inquisitors, and not all watch captains think the same way.  There are fluff examples of, at least inquisitors, that work with people, creatures, etc. that would be considered heretical by the 'larger organization.'  Wasn't Ravenor the one who worked with the Eldar, more than once, and kept it a secret from his own Ordo?  The needs of the many and all that...

The fluff way around it is to create an environment where it could exist, and treat it as an rarity or a potential 'if you talk to anyone about this we will all be purged' kind of way.  Hell, the inquisitor/commander doens't even have to tell the PCs why they're doing it, just that they're under orders and it comes from on high.  You could have a field day with all the RP opportunities such an event could have- think of the inner group conflict, what if one of the group decided to try and report home as to what was happening?  Does the Kill team become a rogue element?  There are ways to do this without completely obliterating canon that could create really engaging stories.  Does it go against the grain, yeah, but sometimes that type of conflict is what breeds the most exciting stories.

@Gantz: Why couldn't it be from his genetic material?  There are a only a handful of things at a genetic level that keep men and women different (you could say the same about monkies, too), so why not take the stuff that doesn't involve the dude parts and stuff them in a lady?  I'm no geneticist, mind you.  As for your second question, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying - if it's why did the Emperor give only women the ability to procreate, he didn't, humans just came that way.  If it's why he didn't turn women into SMs, your guess is as good as anyone elses'.  If you're saying women, because they can bear children, are the most valueable asset the empire has, then I agree to a certain extent, but when you have billions of people, and half of them are women, having a few of them march to their death won't actually endanger your species.

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Particularly considering that there is only a million known space marines in the entire galaxy.  Even if all of them were women, it really wouldn't put much of a dent in the overall population of the Imperium. 

Non violant interaction between the eldar and inquisition seems to be fairly common in fluff.

Nonviolant encounters with tau and kroot are also not unknown: (See For the Emperor and also a combined naval operation against the ruinous powers is suggested to have taken place shortly before the events in Traitors Hand)

Basically, the 'reality' of the Imperium seems to be less black and white then the dogma. 

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And 'reality' being different from 'dogma' seems to be a very human experience.  Look at the current state of our world, hell, look at your own parents.  Do as I say, as I preach, as I command, not as I do...

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Actually my parents are great. School of hard knocks, which means phyiscal punishment was the norm for me. Though as I got older my dad got more creative in his punishments. Hell I live on a Ranch, just think of the stupid **** he had me doing. Now as far as in the 'dont do as I act' my parents in my memory have never done anything that went against what they told me to do. Sure I have done stupid ****, but I have learned from my mistakes.

With that said, I think you need to just look at some religions through the ages. Catholic church about a 1000years ago, Islam now, Herbrews before all that. 2000 years ago Hebrews still used to stone women and treated outsiders terribly. Even christians nowdays do stupid things. Look at that one dude that wanted to burn the KOran. Love your neighbor, unless he is different still goes around.

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darkrose50 said:

Evola said:

Of course, this is directed at those in the center, not on the Left.  Those people that say those days are over and obviously applauding the decline of the West (not to be confused with Spengler's work), and cannot be reasoned with.  The Left is inherently illogical.

 

To a left-thinking brain the right is inherently illogical.

There appears to be a fundamental measurable difference in brain chemistry between the left and the right. I would imagine that this is due to part nature and part nurture.

This leads me to believe that humanity needs members of the left as well as members of the right.

Teachers are have the most education out of any profession. Is it more likely that teachers are all brainwashed, or that logic is present on the left?  

Note #1: I did not say that logic was not present on the right.  Logic is present on the right.

Note #2: In America Democrats are to the left, and Republicans are to the right.

. . . survey by the Center for the Study of Popular Culture (CSPC) examined the phenomenon of political bias among faculty at 32 elite colleges and universities, where it found 1,397 professors who were registered Democrats and only 134 who were registered Republicans a ratio greater than 10 to 1. . .
. . . Another CSPC study found that at 10 major law schools in the U.S., 430 professors were registered Democrats and 53 were registered Republicans a ratio of more than 8 to 1. . .
. . . The same survey further revealed that at 9 major journalism schools, 120 professors were registered Democrats and 29 were registered Republicans a ratio of more than 4 to 1 . . .
. . . A study released in late December 2005 by UC-Santa Clara economics professor Dan Klein found that social science professors are overwhelmingly Democratic, and that Democratic professors in those disciplines are more homogeneous in their thinking than Republicans. On the question of political affiliation, the survey showed an immense imbalance in the breakdown of Democrats to Republicans, ranging from 21.1 to 1 among anthropologists;
. . . 9.1 to 1 among political and legal philosophers; . . .
. . . 8.5 to 1 among historians; . . .
. . . 5.6 to 1 among political scientists . . .

Another 2005 study by Stanley Rothman, S. Robert Lichter, and Neil Nevitte, titled Politics and Professional Advancement Among College Faculty, found that 72 percent of those teaching at American colleges and universities describe themselves as liberal, as compared to only 15 percent who claim to be conservative.

According to the study, the most one-sided departments are English literature, philosophy, political science, and religious studies, where at least 80 percent of the faculty say they are liberal and no more than 5 percent call themselves conservative.

"The American College Teacher" a major 2001 study by the Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA, which has never been challenged, posed a number of questions on politics to a nationwide sample of professors. The researchers found that 5.3 percent of faculty members could be classified as far left, and another 42.3 percent as liberal. By contrast, 17.7 percent were conservative, and 0.3 percent were far right.
 

Thanks for the studies.  While I find this information quite interesting, I'm not entirely surprised by the results.  As everyone knows, especially Dr. Kevin MacDonald amongst others, academia is not friendly to anyone in the conservative camp.  They'll try to oust you.  It's actively hostile.  Actively.  This is how the Frankfurt school won out. 

I think someone of your caliber understands this.  I know many on the left who are quite bright, many are smarter than myself.  However, their logic, their philosophy, their whole Derrida/post-colonialist/post-modernist philosophy is not only destructive but illogical.

Still, thanks for posting this information. 

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Wodan said:

 

 

 

Thanks for the studies.  While I find this information quite interesting, I'm not entirely surprised by the results.  As everyone knows, especially Dr. Kevin MacDonald amongst others, academia is not friendly to anyone in the conservative camp.  They'll try to oust you.  It's actively hostile.  Actively.  This is how the Frankfurt school won out. 

I think someone of your caliber understands this.  I know many on the left who are quite bright, many are smarter than myself.  However, their logic, their philosophy, their whole Derrida/post-colonialist/post-modernist philosophy is not only destructive but illogical.

Still, thanks for posting this information. 

 

What's funny is I've seen the flip side of it.  Teachers fired under suspect accusations because they would not espouse a conservative slant to education.  Off the top of my head, I recall Chuck Oberlin being fired for critizising the administraton for allowing certain organisations to activly recruit in the school. 

 

Namely: The Aryan Nation.

 

I will however admit to a certain bias in my opinions on the matter.  I spent my childhood being called 'half breed' and 'subhuman' by people who decry how 'liberal' the media is now.   It may surprise you to know that I tend to disagree with the politics of people that have me beaten with truncheons. 

 

You claim that people who oppose you call you 'racist' as propaganda.  I can say from personal experiance that, at least in my area of the woods, it's fact.  No matter what pretty academic face you put on it, the fact that I can still recall these same good citizens reffering to me as a 'prairie ******' because I was somewhat tanner then they are and my nose looks a bit large tends to make all these statistics sound a bit sour to me. 

 

After all, statistically, I should be a drunken criminal leech on society slowly withering away in some hellhole like Rosebud.

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Sorry to hear that man. I myself have been beaten, kicked around, and otherwise oppressed. Why, Because I was a military brat who was raised in the country offbase. So I supposed to be Richer, have the nikes, dress a certain why, etc. However my father never believed in spending 100 dollars for a pair of shoes, or pants or what have you. I was also kicked around because I hung out with people from a different race. I am conservative, however I was raised with only seeing monochromatic. My father punched me so hard when he heard me say a racist thing, my parents raised me to see that Race is pointless because we all bleed red and have the same hopes and dreams. We are all Homo Sapians. (As such I refuse to answer the race question, if pushed I answer with that I am Human and a Proud U.S. Citizen)

I also spent time in the military and was accused of being a skinhead by one of my sgt. who made fun of me because I couldnt tan, had shaved my head bald, and was blue eyed. He however was not accused of anything for having a tattoo on his forearms that said , "100% N...." you get the idea. Still I never said anything about it and months later he went UA (unauthorized Absence or like Awol for the army, Away without leave) Robbed an armored car and shot one of the guards.

My Point is it goes both ways. I plan on raising my son the same way my father did, we are human, and as such you treat them how you want to be treated.

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Wodan said:

I think someone of your caliber understands this.  I know many on the left who are quite bright, many are smarter than myself.  However, their logic, their philosophy, their whole Derrida/post-colonialist/post-modernist philosophy is not only destructive but illogical.

This thread is beginning to smack of "politics and religion," now, and I think that this should be actively avoided.  There's a whole ream of difference between using real world/life/politics as a basis but this seems to be turning into something else.

Well, there you have it.  Maybe FFG should open a P&R forum?

Kage

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I think we need to get back on topic:

 

Bluntly, I see no reason that a 21st founding chapter couldn't be partially, or even entirely FSMs.  There's enough fluff to indicate that the chapters that came out of it were extensivly re-engineered, beyond what might be considered 'the norm' for space marines.

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BaronIveagh said:

I think we need to get back on topic:

 

Bluntly, I see no reason that a 21st founding chapter couldn't be partially, or even entirely FSMs.  There's enough fluff to indicate that the chapters that came out of it were extensivly re-engineered, beyond what might be considered 'the norm' for space marines.

Except for that nasty little "space marines must be male" requirement in the fluff.

Quote modern day genetics all you want, but until we have a sample of the genetics of the god emperor of mankind we cannot state that it would be automatically compatible or incompatible with anyone, otehr then what the source material says.

The rules as written do not say femals cannot play space marines, it just says females (and males) cannot play female space marines.

Why is that such a bother?

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It probably lies at the heart of interpretation of the 40k universe in general.  There's not necessarily a rational reason why anything might be so, but it is strenuously protected by a mutually-supporting "Canon Divergence Police."  Ultimately, the idea of "rational" is brought to question, normally because it is set in the future, that modern perceptions are obviously incorrect, etc.

Thus we end up with argument like we're seeing here.  "I refute your use of modern genetics on the grounds that it is 40k and we don't know how genetics work there, especially the genetics of the Emperor (who is uber)."

The fact that "rules as written" are being used in common juxtaposition (yeah, I know!) with the 'ole Canon Divergence Police just makes it more... gnarled.  

Don't get me wrong.  I don't need nor do I want "female space marines" of the zygote implantation type.  I would rather explore other options, which includes the often-suggested idea the Adepta Sororitas can be explored in such a way as to make them an (if not necessarily the) equivalent of Marines.  I think that one thing, amongst others, that Deathwatch has shown us that it is quite easy to take a simple premise and then buff it to uber gamist extremes to make something into far more than it might necessarily be.

Seems to me that the thread is about preaching to someone that doesn't have the same prayer book.  Are people trying to bring BaronInveagh back into the light or something?  I don't think that's going to happen.  This is a person that is so much a pitball gripping something that a finger in the appropriate location isn't going to make him let go. 

Thus, if you really want this thread to die, why not just let it die.  Ignore it.  Don't reply to it.  If someone else replies to it?  Ignore it.  Don't reply to it.

Kage

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Kage2020 said:

It probably lies at the heart of interpretation of the 40k universe in general.  There's not necessarily a rational reason why anything might be so, but it is strenuously protected by a mutually-supporting "Canon Divergence Police."  Ultimately, the idea of "rational" is brought to question, normally because it is set in the future, that modern perceptions are obviously incorrect, etc.

Thus we end up with argument like we're seeing here.  "I refute your use of modern genetics on the grounds that it is 40k and we don't know how genetics work there, especially the genetics of the Emperor (who is uber)."

The fact that "rules as written" are being used in common juxtaposition (yeah, I know!) with the 'ole Canon Divergence Police just makes it more... gnarled.  

Don't get me wrong.  I don't need nor do I want "female space marines" of the zygote implantation type.  I would rather explore other options, which includes the often-suggested idea the Adepta Sororitas can be explored in such a way as to make them an (if not necessarily the) equivalent of Marines.  I think that one thing, amongst others, that Deathwatch has shown us that it is quite easy to take a simple premise and then buff it to uber gamist extremes to make something into far more than it might necessarily be.

Seems to me that the thread is about preaching to someone that doesn't have the same prayer book.  Are people trying to bring BaronInveagh back into the light or something?  I don't think that's going to happen.  This is a person that is so much a pitball gripping something that a finger in the appropriate location isn't going to make him let go. 

Thus, if you really want this thread to die, why not just let it die.  Ignore it.  Don't reply to it.  If someone else replies to it?  Ignore it.  Don't reply to it.

Kage

 

I might point out that being a pitbull is somewhat in my nature.  'You can't' is a concept I reject out of hand.  I've heard it too many times from too many people. 

 

My question is always 'How can I?"

 

40k is particularly good for this, as so many loopholes have been written into it over the years, that there is very little you can point to that doesn't have an expection or a way around it.  The fluff is just structured that way.  No-1 himself stated it: GW does not allow much by way of definite things.  Even for the 'ALL MARINES ARE MALE!!!!" there is a loophole. 

Why?  Because GW wants people to buy the minis and make up thier own chapters.  In that order.  They also don't want to worry too much about contradicting earlier fluff.  They've been taking a beating for it ever since the squats, and they realize it's an embarassment.

And most of the time, the argument against anything that is considered 'anti-fluff' is "No one in 40k thinks or has, ugh, common sense." Not humans, not orks, not eldar, not necrons, not tau, not kroot, not even the ruinous powers, who technically are made of thoughts and emotions. 

If this were how your RPG were actually run, it would go something like this:

Player1: How about we shoot that rope that's holding up the bridge loaded with gaunts over the firey lava pit?

GM: What class are you?

Player1: Adept

GM: You can't think of that, as it would be innovation, and that wouldn't be canon.

Player 2: I'm an SoB!  Can I think of it?

GM: No, SoBs are not allowed to think at all, unless it's 'Kill The Heretic'.

and so on....

So claiming that 'Nothing in 40k works like it does in the real world!!!  NOTHING!!!" is not only silly, but if you actually think about it for a moment, could lead to things such as:

Player: 'I grab these cardboard wings and start flapping!  I belive I can fly, so I leap off the building and fly away!"

GM:"What class are you?"

PLayer: "Ork freeboota"

GM: ... you leap off the building and fly away...

 

Why would the GM decide this?  Because he's bound by fluff, and fluff says that orks can make anything they think can work, work.  (Regaurdless of whether it would actually work.)

See, I was once told by Orson Scott Card that for something to be immersive, people need a common frame of reference. He was talking bout Sci-fi writing, but frankly it applies to games too. The reason that so many people keep comming back to 'But in the modern world we'd..." is because for the player and GM it is the most common frame of reference.

So, consider: You will probably have to allow a certain amount of reality into your 40k, fluff regardless, or you will really hate it if any of the games take off among the non-40k gamers because this board will FLOOD with screaming about things like the above scenarios.  There will be things that are so odd it will make FSM look downright canon.

 

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BaronIveagh said:

I might point out that being a pitbull is somewhat in my nature.  'You can't' is a concept I reject out of hand.  I've heard it too many times from too many people. 

My question is always 'How can I?"


Well that's easy:

By breaking the fluff and playing outside the established confines of the 40K Universe. With that in mind, go for your life.


But if you want to play within the 40K universe though, and keep to fluff? Then Page 28.

BYE

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Atheosis said:

 

Atheosis said:

 My point is that no one within Deathwatch would accept a female Space Marine, just as no one would accept a Marine that arrived with a third eye growing out of his forehead and tentacles for arms.  Individual discretion isn't an issue in such a matter.  In fact, after the "female Astartes" was forcibly detained, turned over to the Inquisition, and tortured for information, there would soon be an Inquisitorial inquiry instituted to hunt down her "Chapter" and destroy it for heresy against the Omnisiah (the tampering with the technology of Astartes geneseed being an afront to the Mechanicus) and the will of the Emperor (the Emperor's will being that Marines be male).

This statement is utterly ludicrous. Considering that woman are nearly universally accepted in every other role in the Imperium. To compare a female marine to a mutant marine, being a blatant manifestation of heresey is mind boggling.  A mutant is an obvious screw up in the genetic legacy of humanity. Women are just as much human as their male counterparts.  Half the Imperium could be burned as mutants thanks to the effects of living in different environments.  I've yet to read anything which indicates the Emperor decreed there be only male marines. The only limiting factor at this point is the simple fact that the geneseed doesn't work on women.

Also, individual discretion has everything to do with the Inqusition.  There are Inquisitors who are downright as zealous as the Black Templars, then there are those who actively employ aliens and mutants. The Imperium is not so black and white as the Imperial Creed would have us believe.  There are multitude levels of acceptance across the entirety of Imperial space. mutants to psykers to aliens.

Considering the eventual extinction of the Space Marine due to the loss of geneseed, there is without a doubt some branch of the Mechanicum trying desperately to discover how the Emperor managed to create the geneseed.  If this research somehow manifested into geneseed organs, based on the Emporer's own genetic legacy, that were capable of effecting females just as well as males, you can bet there would be chapters of female Space Marines. This would immediately spawn a controvesy with the Ecclesiarchy as they would want the Sisters of Battle to have these geneseed.

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H.B.M.C. said:

 

BaronIveagh said:

I might point out that being a pitbull is somewhat in my nature.  'You can't' is a concept I reject out of hand.  I've heard it too many times from too many people. 

My question is always 'How can I?"



Well that's easy:

By breaking the fluff and playing outside the established confines of the 40K Universe. With that in mind, go for your life.


But if you want to play within the 40K universe though, and keep to fluff? Then Page 28.

BYE

 

 

 

 

See, this is where we differ: you insist that conforming to fluff and FSM are mutually exclusive.  I don't see it that way.

 

 

(And SC, I might point out that the mathmatical certainty of the extinction of a given chapter is something that a lot of people spend a lot of time tap dancing around with the 'THIS....IS.....40K!!!!" defense.  Never really considered the SoB geneseed angle though.  Well thought out.  Technically, though, the Astartes would still be seperate from the other branches of the Imperium.)

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BaronIveagh said:

See, this is where we differ: you insist that conforming to fluff and FSM are mutually exclusive.  I don't see it that way.

When the background contains an oft-repeated absolute statement that Space Marines are male, when absolute statements are extremely rare. That's significant - when someone doesn't make absolute statements often, then when they do make them, they clearly mean it.

When the background says that a given group categorically doesn't exist, then that notion and the notion of them existing is mutually exclusive. Indeed, that is practically the definition of mutually exclusive.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

BaronIveagh said:

 

See, this is where we differ: you insist that conforming to fluff and FSM are mutually exclusive.  I don't see it that way.

 

 

When the background contains an oft-repeated absolute statement that Space Marines are male, when absolute statements are extremely rare. That's significant - when someone doesn't make absolute statements often, then when they do make them, they clearly mean it.

When the background says that a given group categorically doesn't exist, then that notion and the notion of them existing is mutually exclusive. Indeed, that is practically the definition of mutually exclusive.

 

However, when loopholes exist that circumvent that direct prohibition, it is not an absolute.  Though, a more convincing argument might be made that, given the appearently much altered nature of chapters created during the 21st founding, that they are not 'really' space marines at all.  As noted above in one of the few peices of fluff that we have on it, the marines created may have deviated significantly from 'canon' space marines in their internal composition.  It is unknown how many such altered chapters were produced, to what extent they were altered, and the exact nature of those alterations, as they seem to have varied significantly.

Every chapter produced showed either behavioural or genetic alterations from the 'norm' of space marines (whcih the exception of the Fire Hawks, who became the Legion of the Damned)  including the Lamenters, who where converted from Blood Angels to a 'codex' chapter.  It is unknown how many chapters were produced.  The facility at Incunabula seems to have produced whole chapters at a time though implanting what are described as forced growth clones in the fluff.

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Hi folks. Having just read all 25 pages of this thread, I really felt the need to get this one off my chest. I know; late to the party. I just found out about these forums yesterday):

 

BaronIveagh, it seems that the issue has already been resolved, has it not? If you want females in power armour, work it into your game. That's all there is to it. I have three females out of five players in my group - A Blood Angel, an Ultramarine and one who plays an SoB. I gave the girls the option of playing a female Marine if they wanted to, but all they said to that was "Pfft. No. 8-foot tall killing machine with 'nads of steel? I want.". My girlfriend went SOB after she decided that logically, a female marine with all the necessary implants would look like an overgrown gorilla, so she chose an SOB instead. It ain't gonna make the purists happy, but hey, entertainment is entertainment.

 

You however seem intent on convincing everyone that anyone who denies the possibility of a female Marine is being unreasonable - I apologize if that's not your intention, but as someone who's sitting on the fence on this because I honestly see it as a non-issue, that's exactly how you're coming across as.

 

Frankly, I have to wonder. Are the female players in your group demanding the ability to play Femme Marines? If they are, just say "okay, pick your chapter or make one up" and be done with it. There's no real need to spout off in here demanding agreement and acceptance from people whom you will never meet in real life, nevermind across the table.

 

Again, if it works for you, it works for you. Who cares what anyone not in your gaming group thinks? Purists will continue to be purists, and the ones who consider the "No female Marines!" to be a sacrosanct rule will continue to do so.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love a good discussion as much as the next guy, but all I'm getting from your posts is a huge "LOL AMIRIGHT GUYS?" :(

 

There. Take it as you will, sir. =/

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

BaronIveagh said:

 

See, this is where we differ: you insist that conforming to fluff and FSM are mutually exclusive.  I don't see it that way.

 

 

When the background contains an oft-repeated absolute statement that Space Marines are male, when absolute statements are extremely rare. That's significant - when someone doesn't make absolute statements often, then when they do make them, they clearly mean it.

When the background says that a given group categorically doesn't exist, then that notion and the notion of them existing is mutually exclusive. Indeed, that is practically the definition of mutually exclusive.

Yet in DH we can play an Adeptas Sororitas character that falls to Chaos - something that isn't supposed to happen per the fluff...

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HappyDaze said:

Yet in DH we can play an Adeptas Sororitas character that falls to Chaos - something that isn't supposed to happen per the fluff...

As far as I'm aware, the only group that's categorically stated to be immune to Chaos are the Grey Knights. Sororitas, while extremely pious, aren't immune to the lure of Chaos.

Remember, the Sororitas comprise of more than the Battle Sisters. The Hospitallers, Dialogous, Famulous, etc, are also considered as part of the group. One party I'd see as likely to fall would be the Dialogous - Enough exposure to heretical texts without the rigors of GK indoctrination...yeah, could happen.

But that's another can of worms altogether, lets keep on-topic here :)

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Back to the topic it is clear to me now that the liberal islamofacists who run their games the ways that are fun for them and their players are bringing about hte fall of the American Empire, calling the talaban and are also trying to ressurect the USSR. you see, when players cn play deathwatch as a female marien if their GM allows it, then Osama Bin laden grows magic wings, if Osama bin laden grows magic wings, he can fly across the hills of afghanistan, into russi and rebuild the USSR. then we will have islamo marxists working with the re-animated body of Hitler (because, well, Godwin) to invade america and turn us all into commies. 

 

this creativity thing is completely out of hand as we can see above, thats why you need to play the game following each and every rule and listining to every bit of fluff.

thats why we absolutely cannot allow you to try and find ways that you can shoehorn a FSM into your fluff. (also how would you fit that much spagetti into a suit of power armor?)

 

 

 

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BaronIveagh said:

See, this is where we differ: you insist that conforming to fluff and FSM are mutually exclusive.  I don't see it that way.


Wha...?

No... this whole conversation is the very definition of 'mutually exclusive'. There are no female Marines. It's not a debate, there are no 'loop holes', it has been categorically and explicitly stated that Marines are always male. There's no wiggle room. There's no leeway. There's no chance that somewhere, out there, in the fluff, that they exist. They don't. They simply don't.

If you want to have Female Marines, then, as I said before, that's fine - you and your group can do whatever you want - but in doing so you are breaking the established fluff and not playing within the confines of the 40K universe. I make no judgements about people who do that and, again, to repeat myself, you and your group are completely free to come up with whatever you want, but this isn't a debate. It is an absolute.

There are no female Marines. There just aren't.

BYE

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It's not 'nerd rage' Fizzy - I'm simply stunned that someone can go on and on for pages despite concrete evidence that his viewpoint is well... so unbelievably wrong. It boggles the mind.

And the Squats will rise again, **** it! lengua.gif

BYE

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