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Cifer

Jericho... that's in the Halo Stars, right?

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The Eye of Terror should be visible to every world within 10,000 light years of it, which is a fairly large chunk of the Imperium but not entire segmentae. Something I've toyed with in the past is the idea that every planet within sight will see the birth of the Eye as light reaches it, which must be a pretty freaky event demonio.gif

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Andy Hoare said:

The Eye of Terror should be visible to every world within 10,000 light years of it, which is a fairly large chunk of the Imperium but not entire segmentae. Something I've toyed with in the past is the idea that every planet within sight will see the birth of the Eye as light reaches it, which must be a pretty freaky event demonio.gif

I toyed with a variation of this: an Ecclesiarchical cult that travels from place to place within the galaxy attempting to view Terra from precisely 10,815 light years away through powerful telescopes in the hope of gazing upon the true visage of the Emperor when he "walked as a man". 

The alternative was a specialist Ordos Calixis vessel that travelled around the Sector using the same technique to solve mysteries. Then I moved on to even stranger ideas! happy.gif

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Lightbringer said:

Andy Hoare said:

 

The Eye of Terror should be visible to every world within 10,000 light years of it, which is a fairly large chunk of the Imperium but not entire segmentae. Something I've toyed with in the past is the idea that every planet within sight will see the birth of the Eye as light reaches it, which must be a pretty freaky event demonio.gif

 

 

I toyed with a variation of this: an Ecclesiarchical cult that travels from place to place within the galaxy attempting to view Terra from precisely 10,815 light years away through powerful telescopes in the hope of gazing upon the true visage of the Emperor when he "walked as a man". 

The alternative was a specialist Ordos Calixis vessel that travelled around the Sector using the same technique to solve mysteries. Then I moved on to even stranger ideas! happy.gif

 

That's cool!  I wonder what the optical resolution, in terms of photons/cm2, would be at that distance?

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Andy Hoare said:

 

The Eye of Terror should be visible to every world within 10,000 light years of it, which is a fairly large chunk of the Imperium but not entire segmentae. Something I've toyed with in the past is the idea that every planet within sight will see the birth of the Eye as light reaches it, which must be a pretty freaky event demonio.gif

 

 

 

Thank you for that, however the point stands: since Calixis and Koronus sectors definitly make that but Jericho reach does not.  

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BaronIveagh said:

 

Andy Hoare said:

 

The Eye of Terror should be visible to every world within 10,000 light years of it, which is a fairly large chunk of the Imperium but not entire segmentae. Something I've toyed with in the past is the idea that every planet within sight will see the birth of the Eye as light reaches it, which must be a pretty freaky event demonio.gif

 

 

 

Thank you for that, however the point stands: since Calixis and Koronus sectors definitly make that but Jericho reach does not.  

 

 

It does indeed still stand. As does the impossibility of keeping a secret that half the Navy are party too.

I also think most Imperials above grunt level would at least be vaguely aware the Tau Empire is 'somewhere out toward the Eastern Fringe'. 

The whole conspiracy a) is about as watertight as a collander, and b) a bad idea even at the storyline level because one group of people it definitely would not fool is players who know the setting. If I sent my groups RT into that crusade about the second or third thing he'd be doing would be trying to flog the 'truth' about the crusade for as much as he could ... which bearing in mind we're told this is a secret that has fooled three Sector Lords and countless thousands of major nobles for decades, would be a LOT.

Bad idea, not thought through. 

EDIT - As an aside, that thing about the speed of light and when cosmic events become visible had never occured to me in relation to 40K before. Interesting idea - I love the idea of Imperial cults slowly moving ever away from Earth, each time waiting to see the time of the Emperor's ascension (or whatever) before hopping back to another system to wait again. Cool. The thought that the bloom of the Eye of Terror causing problems each time it's light appears in the sky above a distant world is also interesting.

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Adam France said:

I also think most Imperials above grunt level would at least be vaguely aware the Tau Empire is 'somewhere out toward the Eastern Fringe'.

 

This is doubtful, overall, the Tau are insignificant in the eyes of the Imperium. No different from the dozens of other small Xenos kingdoms scattered around the Imperium's territory. The only reason they haven't been crushed by the Imperium (or at least hamstrung/largely contained) is because most of the Imperium war-machine in that Segmentum is dealing larger threats, like the Tyranid. Your average imperial citizen, or even solder, is as likely to have heard about them as they have the Jokaero, Enslavers, or Hrud.

 

The only noteworthy thing about them is their rapid rise to power, and that they happen to have a tabletop army.

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They are, to quote GW, "a big fish in a small pond, but a small fish in the ocean."  In that segment of the eastern fringe, they're a major player.  Guardsmen are trained on how to combat them, tech-priest on are the look out for smuggled xeno-tech, etc.  Once you pass about the Ultramar region though, they fade from the Imperial view until they become irrelivent, then unknown.  It's worth keeping in mind that the Tau Empire is only around the size of a dozen or a score of the imperium's sectors.  It also only has around 50 major worlds (~30 Tau, ~20 Alian homeworlds)

But for a Xenos scholor or void master, it might strike them as odd that the region is under major threat from an instersteller xenos that there's no trace of in the Calixus sector.

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@Quicksilver

 But for a Xenos scholor or void master, it might strike them as odd that the region is under major threat from an instersteller xenos that there's no trace of in the Calixus sector.

For a truly learned scholar, yes - but I'd assume a majority of those is in Inquisitorial employ anyway. For everyone else, it's only to be expected that a Crusade to worlds no man has gone before will learn about new and exciting aliens - and kill them. Take the Expanse, for example: How many void-capable xenos exist there noone's ever heard before?
Regions of space with no remarkable threats probably won't attract a Crusade; a few Rogue Traders with a load of colony supplies, guardsmen and missionaries would be enough.

 

As for the Tau being a tip-off to things not being right, Galaga already said it: The Tau are considered important by players, not by the Imperium - other than those parts directly next to them.

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Blood Pact said:

Wow, you guys just keep moving the goal posts don't you?

First it's just the officer corps of the navy, now it's half of them.

Fallacious arguement is fallacious.

Okay ... allow me to rephrase my point - it's ridiculous to assume that a secret known to most of the officers in the Navy would remain secret from the nobility and indeed Sector Lords of the three home sectors of those naval officers. 

The point is the same. 

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Quicksilver said:

They are, to quote GW, "a big fish in a small pond, but a small fish in the ocean."  In that segment of the eastern fringe, they're a major player.  Guardsmen are trained on how to combat them, tech-priest on are the look out for smuggled xeno-tech, etc.  Once you pass about the Ultramar region though, they fade from the Imperial view until they become irrelivent, then unknown.  It's worth keeping in mind that the Tau Empire is only around the size of a dozen or a score of the imperium's sectors.  It also only has around 50 major worlds (~30 Tau, ~20 Alian homeworlds)

But for a Xenos scholor or void master, it might strike them as odd that the region is under major threat from an instersteller xenos that there's no trace of in the Calixus sector.

Well Tau equipment is turning up in Calixis through the Kroot for a start.

That aside, as I say, I seriously doubt knowledgeable Imperial officers would not have heard of the Tau at all. There aren't that many xeno breeds possessing empires the size of the Tau. They may not be foremost in Calixian threat assessment briefings, historical journals (written by Imperial officers who have fought in previous wars against the Tau), or xeno-bestiaries, but they are likely to be vaguely known - and btw vaguely placeable. 

All the arguments in support of this terrible conspiracy nonsense force utter ignorance of their enemies onto Imperial forces. That does not fit canon. Just because grunts may be told only what they need to know to kill xenos, officers would be more knowledgeable. Gaunt is no ignorant fool, neither are most of his troopers imo, but you guys are trying to make me believe the majority the fighting soldiers in this crusade are ignorant fools. I don't accept that.  

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@Adam

Okay ... allow me to rephrase my point - it's ridiculous to assume that a secret known to most of the officers in the Navy would remain secret from the nobility and indeed Sector Lords of the three home sectors of those naval officers.
 

 Um... as repeatedly stated in the thread, on a need-to-know base, the only ones apart from the High Command who would have to accurately know where everyone is would be the Navigators. Since people navigate on interstellar distances purely by the Astronomican's beacon, I don't think long-range astronomy would be much of an issue for day-to-day affairs.

 

That aside, as I say, I seriously doubt knowledgeable Imperial officers would not have heard of the Tau at all. There aren't that many xeno breeds possessing empires the size of the Tau.

Says who? After reading a little about them, it was my impression that the Tau are only one example of a few dozen xeno pocket empires strewn all throughout Imperial space. See Douglas Adams about how big Space really is.

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GalagaGalaxian said:

Adam France said:

I also think most Imperials above grunt level would at least be vaguely aware the Tau Empire is 'somewhere out toward the Eastern Fringe'.

 

 

This is doubtful, overall, the Tau are insignificant in the eyes of the Imperium. No different from the dozens of other small Xenos kingdoms scattered around the Imperium's territory. The only reason they haven't been crushed by the Imperium (or at least hamstrung/largely contained) is because most of the Imperium war-machine in that Segmentum is dealing larger threats, like the Tyranid. Your average imperial citizen, or even solder, is as likely to have heard about them as they have the Jokaero, Enslavers, or Hrud.

 

The only noteworthy thing about them is their rapid rise to power, and that they happen to have a tabletop army.

GalagaGalaxian said:

Adam France said:

I also think most Imperials above grunt level would at least be vaguely aware the Tau Empire is 'somewhere out toward the Eastern Fringe'.

 

 

This is doubtful, overall, the Tau are insignificant in the eyes of the Imperium. No different from the dozens of other small Xenos kingdoms scattered around the Imperium's territory. The only reason they haven't been crushed by the Imperium (or at least hamstrung/largely contained) is because most of the Imperium war-machine in that Segmentum is dealing larger threats, like the Tyranid. Your average imperial citizen, or even solder, is as likely to have heard about them as they have the Jokaero, Enslavers, or Hrud.

 

The only noteworthy thing about them is their rapid rise to power, and that they happen to have a tabletop army.

The Enslavers do not have an empire.

The Hrud seem to be scattered ... however, again, I would expect some degree of vague knowledge ('I'm told they're called Hrud lads, watch out they're known to use x weapons and favour y tactics - their z ships are rumoured to do a') of them to be known to Imperial navy and armed forces.

The Jokaero don't field armies or fight, afaicr, so I would definitely think the Imperium rates Tau a greater threat than them.

Name me four xeno breeds (not mentioning Orks or Eldar) that possess an empire (as at 815.M41) as big and powerful as the Tau?

I'm not a Tau fanboy btw, I'm merely making a point that as represented in the canon they are a small, but still significant xeno species, that produce tech alone that would make them vaguely known on an Imperial scale. (In my campaign btw the Tau, are in fact a human civilisation descended from Daoist asians, which the Imperium have classified as 'alien' ... but that's another discussion.)

 

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Cifer said:

 

@Adam

Okay ... allow me to rephrase my point - it's ridiculous to assume that a secret known to most of the officers in the Navy would remain secret from the nobility and indeed Sector Lords of the three home sectors of those naval officers.
 

 Um... as repeatedly stated in the thread, on a need-to-know base, the only ones apart from the High Command who would have to accurately know where everyone is would be the Navigators. Since people navigate on interstellar distances purely by the Astronomican's beacon, I don't think long-range astronomy would be much of an issue for day-to-day affairs.

 

That aside, as I say, I seriously doubt knowledgeable Imperial officers would not have heard of the Tau at all. There aren't that many xeno breeds possessing empires the size of the Tau.

Says who? After reading a little about them, it was my impression that the Tau are only one example of a few dozen xeno pocket empires strewn all throughout Imperial space. See Douglas Adams about how big Space really is.

 

 

Even if there are three dozen 'pocket xeno empires equal or greater in technology, scale and extent to the Tau's' that is not many - think how many fictional realms we sci-fi fans are fluent and familiar with - I could do thirty different nations and remember details about them standing on my head. Canon does not seem specific on that point though and it's certainly arguable that there are anything like that many in 815.

But let's say there are (for the sake of argument), you're telling me that the Imperium covers up where these thirty or so xeno realms are in the Galaxy? That people, such as noble families and their servants who are involved in galactic trade on a vast scale, don't have even vaguely accurate galactic maps? Hogwash.

Just because Tommy Atkins doesn't know a Tau from a Tribble, the officers and nobles would - or enough of them anyway to blow your ridiculous conspiracy into atoms quicker than you can say 'hey don't these xenos calling themselves Tau sound kinda like those filthy xenos that the Imperium fought a major war against a century or so ago?'.

 

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"Knowledge Begets Heresy"

99.9999999999999999999999999% of the Imperial Guard won't know jack about galactic geography - why should they? They get on a ship at their home planet and they get off at another planet - Someone probably tells them the name of the planet and tells them go here and fight. Not only would they not know which spiral arm its in, they don;t have any clue how the galaxy is laid out, nor do they care. The vast majority of the Imperium is blissfully ignorant - The Emperor Provides, The Emperor Protects.

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 Name me four xeno breeds (not mentioning Orks or Eldar) that possess an empire (as at 815.M41) as big and powerful as the Tau?

The Ka'or, the Fin-tach, the Grin-ta-kor and the funn'y-na'me. Never heard of them? Yeah, that's probably because the sector of space they come from wasn't described yet, like 90% of the Imperium (wait... that would mean we have descriptions of 100000 worlds... better add a few percents here!) and probably somewhere around 99,99...% of the galaxy. Assuming nothing else of the size of the Tau "Empire" would be there is rather absurd.

The known big xeno races are the Eldar (because they turn up everywhere since they were the galaxy's former rulers before they managed to ruin their own empire), the Orks (because they're noted to actually be more numerous than Humanity) and a little later the Necrons (see Eldar). Seen galactically, the Tau are a footnote, just like the Hrud, the Slaugth and a few hundred other xeno species.

 

But let's say there are (for the sake of argument), you're telling me that the Imperium covers up where these thirty or so xeno realms are in the Galaxy? That people, such as noble families and their servants who are involved in galactic trade on a vast scale, don't have even vaguely accurate galactic maps? Hogwash.

Now maybe I'm overlooking something, but who the hell does practice galactic trade? Who trades with anyone even farther than a sector or two away? I think you're underestimating the size of the Imperium again. From the top of my head, I couldn't even name an Imperial organization that regularly operates on more than Segmentum level, with the exception of communication to Terra - because it just makes no sense.
Maybe noble houses do possess maps on a galactic level - but noting the Tau Empire on one of those would be like writing "By the way, in this town lives John Smith!" on a world map.

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(I think the cloven feet are a give away that they're not human :P)

I don't disagree with you on scale, the Tau are the biggest insignificant threat the Imperium faces.  But one of the major reasons for that is the fact that, unlike other major insignificant races, they're unified and consolidated.  The Fraal have far more powerful ships, as do the Demierg, who are also thought to have a greater total population.  However, like the Hrud and the Kroot, these species are spread across the galexy in an ununitied way.  None of them are ever consolidated enough to be a conquest threat to an Imperial World, just as raiders or traders.  

However because they're so consolidated, they arn't a threat, or even have contact, outside of relitivly small sphere of influance.  So with the Imperium's modus operendi of not giveing out information they don't have to, it's easy to beleave that once your half a segmen away from the Tau Empire only Xeno Scholors have heard of them, and farther then that, almost nobody.

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Blood Pact said:

Wow, you guys just keep moving the goal posts don't you?

First it's just the officer corps of the navy, now it's half of them.

Fallacious arguement is fallacious.

 

Actually it'd be all of them (as well as any civilian ship crews), for a simple reason: if all you have to do to find out you're being lied to is look out a window... 

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BaronIveagh said:

Actually it'd be all of them (as well as any civilian ship crews), for a simple reason: if all you have to do to find out you're being lied to is look out a window... 

 

The arguements being made in this thread, like the one above, are so insultingly stupid it's painful.

How many windows do you think Imperial ships have? This isn't Star Trek where they seem to have one every 5 feet, this is a dystopian universe, where their FTL travel happens to be flying through hell! Do you want windows that any worthless rating or deck hand can look out in to that? Not to mention that windows of any kind would be pretty big structural flaws in a starship, like putting a screen door on a submarine, so they'd be very few and far between.

And if the others haven't made a convincing enough argument about why people in the Calixis (and surrounding) sectors haven't heard of the Tau, then nothing will dissuade you from that mad line of thought.

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Cifer said:

 Name me four xeno breeds (not mentioning Orks or Eldar) that possess an empire (as at 815.M41) as big and powerful as the Tau?

The Ka'or, the Fin-tach, the Grin-ta-kor and the funn'y-na'me. Never heard of them? Yeah, that's probably because the sector of space they come from wasn't described yet, like 90% of the Imperium (wait... that would mean we have descriptions of 100000 worlds... better add a few percents here!) and probably somewhere around 99,99...% of the galaxy. Assuming nothing else of the size of the Tau "Empire" would be there is rather absurd.

The known big xeno races are the Eldar (because they turn up everywhere since they were the galaxy's former rulers before they managed to ruin their own empire), the Orks (because they're noted to actually be more numerous than Humanity) and a little later the Necrons (see Eldar). Seen galactically, the Tau are a footnote, just like the Hrud, the Slaugth and a few hundred other xeno species.

 

But let's say there are (for the sake of argument), you're telling me that the Imperium covers up where these thirty or so xeno realms are in the Galaxy? That people, such as noble families and their servants who are involved in galactic trade on a vast scale, don't have even vaguely accurate galactic maps? Hogwash.

Now maybe I'm overlooking something, but who the hell does practice galactic trade? Who trades with anyone even farther than a sector or two away? I think you're underestimating the size of the Imperium again. From the top of my head, I couldn't even name an Imperial organization that regularly operates on more than Segmentum level, with the exception of communication to Terra - because it just makes no sense.
Maybe noble houses do possess maps on a galactic level - but noting the Tau Empire on one of those would be like writing "By the way, in this town lives John Smith!" on a world map.

Cifer said:

 Name me four xeno breeds (not mentioning Orks or Eldar) that possess an empire (as at 815.M41) as big and powerful as the Tau?

The Ka'or, the Fin-tach, the Grin-ta-kor and the funn'y-na'me. Never heard of them? Yeah, that's probably because the sector of space they come from wasn't described yet, like 90% of the Imperium (wait... that would mean we have descriptions of 100000 worlds... better add a few percents here!) and probably somewhere around 99,99...% of the galaxy. Assuming nothing else of the size of the Tau "Empire" would be there is rather absurd.

The known big xeno races are the Eldar (because they turn up everywhere since they were the galaxy's former rulers before they managed to ruin their own empire), the Orks (because they're noted to actually be more numerous than Humanity) and a little later the Necrons (see Eldar). Seen galactically, the Tau are a footnote, just like the Hrud, the Slaugth and a few hundred other xeno species.

 

But let's say there are (for the sake of argument), you're telling me that the Imperium covers up where these thirty or so xeno realms are in the Galaxy? That people, such as noble families and their servants who are involved in galactic trade on a vast scale, don't have even vaguely accurate galactic maps? Hogwash.

Now maybe I'm overlooking something, but who the hell does practice galactic trade? Who trades with anyone even farther than a sector or two away? I think you're underestimating the size of the Imperium again. From the top of my head, I couldn't even name an Imperial organization that regularly operates on more than Segmentum level, with the exception of communication to Terra - because it just makes no sense.
Maybe noble houses do possess maps on a galactic level - but noting the Tau Empire on one of those would be like writing "By the way, in this town lives John Smith!" on a world map.

Rather than simply making stuff up (as you've done with those races) find me a mention that there are 'dozens' of comparable xeno empires to the Tau. There may well be some. In fact I'm certain there should be. I'm simply saying it's arguable how many, and very likely there aren't so many that major wars can be recently fought against them (wars which at the least the Tau forced to a draw) ... and yet their existence is alledgedly completely unknown even to knowledgeable nobles.

Off the top of my head, I'm fairly certain the Shira Calpurnia books routinely mention inter-segmentum level trade going on. Certainly a specific Rogue Trader house are mentioned as conducting trade across three different Segmentum. They also mention the routine movement of Imperial officials between Segmentums. Imperial officials, soldiers, merchants and nobility all travel around the Imperium, often long distances using fast Warp currents to cover the really long distances (such as a named fast-current that Calpurnia uses to transfer from Ultramar to Hydraphur on the other side of the galaxy). Andy Hoare's RT novels also mention very far ranging travel, with (iirc) the central character having visited Terra more than once. There's absolutely no reason to believe wealthy merchant houses or consortiums (such as the Skaelen Har for example) wouldn't exploit long distance trade inside the Imperium's borders.

It is a fan myth that no one travels in the 40K setting, or that the wealthy are not knowledgeable at least in a broad sense about galactic geography.

I shall definitely be studying future FFG books as to how they word briefings about adventures set in the Tau Salient - presumably they should not name these unknown aliens? Or reference where they come from? Or if they've been encountered by the Imperium before?

As an aside, it's noteworthy how bad this conspiracy idea is imo ... that I've yet to get around to moaning about the presence of a Tyranid Hive Fleet fighting the Imperium in 815.M41 ... a direct contradiction of the Tyranid Codex;

The Tyranids had been believed destroyed at Macragge (745.M41), but over two centuries later there were renewed reports from the eastern fringe. (-Heralding the arrival of Kraken in 992.M41).

 

 

 

 

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Blood Pact said:

BaronIveagh said:

Actually it'd be all of them (as well as any civilian ship crews), for a simple reason: if all you have to do to find out you're being lied to is look out a window... 

 

 

The arguements being made in this thread, like the one above, are so insultingly stupid it's painful.

How many windows do you think Imperial ships have? This isn't Star Trek where they seem to have one every 5 feet, this is a dystopian universe, where their FTL travel happens to be flying through hell! Do you want windows that any worthless rating or deck hand can look out in to that? Not to mention that windows of any kind would be pretty big structural flaws in a starship, like putting a screen door on a submarine, so they'd be very few and far between.

And if the others haven't made a convincing enough argument about why people in the Calixis (and surrounding) sectors haven't heard of the Tau, then nothing will dissuade you from that mad line of thought.

There are stacks of windows on Imperial starships. Check the art on the cover of the RT rulebook, or Pages 73, 205, 233, 334 of the same book. There is also old Battlefleet Gothic art showing ratings pushing big cog-wheels in front of wall length tall windows. I think canon states such windows are shuttered during Warp travel ... silly perhaps, but a very established staple of 40K canon.

Mad line of thought, that knowledgeable, educated Imperial nobles and traders might know where not to sail their ships? Hardly. Knowing vaguely of the existence of the Tau as a locally dangerous alien Empire out in the Eastern Fringe is common sense. 

 

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Blood Pact said:

BaronIveagh said:

Actually it'd be all of them (as well as any civilian ship crews), for a simple reason: if all you have to do to find out you're being lied to is look out a window... 

 

 

The arguements being made in this thread, like the one above, are so insultingly stupid it's painful.

How many windows do you think Imperial ships have? This isn't Star Trek where they seem to have one every 5 feet, this is a dystopian universe, where their FTL travel happens to be flying through hell! Do you want windows that any worthless rating or deck hand can look out in to that? Not to mention that windows of any kind would be pretty big structural flaws in a starship, like putting a screen door on a submarine, so they'd be very few and far between.

And if the others haven't made a convincing enough argument about why people in the Calixis (and surrounding) sectors haven't heard of the Tau, then nothing will dissuade you from that mad line of thought.

The premice here is that the Imperium is a brutal, knowledge-stifling dictatorship where secrets such as this are commonplace.  Most are conditioned not to question the party line or try to scratch the surface.  Granted.

We also know that there are people in the Imperium who are above this level of control.  In fact FFG has made role playing games about three such groups:  the Inquisition, Free Traders and Adeptus Astartes.  We can also assume that privilaged members of the military, aristocracy and corporate communities are also of a similar level of 'enlightenment' in this dark age of humanity.  Such people keep the wheels of the Imperium from falling off.

Keeping this type of secret safe from all of these internal cohorts is going to be very difficult and there needs to be an extremely important, or possibly criminal, reason for it.

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Adam France said:

that I've yet to get around to moaning about the presence of a Tyranid Hive Fleet fighting the Imperium in 815.M41 ... a direct contradiction of the Tyranid Codex;

The Tyranids had been believed destroyed at Macragge (745.M41), but over two centuries later there were renewed reports from the eastern fringe. (-Heralding the arrival of Kraken in 992.M41).

Because there's clearly no room for unreliable records, misconceptions, double-speak and flat-out lies in the 40k universe...

Consider, for a moment, the Imperial dating system, something that has remained intact for the entire published history of 40k. The first digit (and most frequently ignored) of any date as recorded by the Administratum is determined by the relative accuracy of the date, subject to the vagaries of astrotelepathy and warp travel. Consequently, no 'official date' for any event that happens anywhere but Terra can be taken as absolute fact. Barring a tiny minority, all 'canon' dates are apocryphal, to varying degrees.

Add to this the fact that records, regiments and entire worlds can be misplaced (deliberately or accidentally), and that such things aren't exactly uncommon... and well, there's room for all sorts of things that might upset the established order by contradicting what we assume we already know.

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