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Volomon

Female playing Deathwatch?

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Quicksilver said:

Kanluwen said:

 

The people who want female Space Marines resort to name calling and calling the fluff bullcrap, etc then hollering about unfair treatment when people respond in kind to their crummy ideas.

 

 

To be fair, the people who hate the idea of female space marines start the name calling other trolling techneques just as often as the pro-female marine groups posters.  The few who actualy want to discuss how it might come about just get buried under the noise from the two fanatical sides.

It's hard to believe you when what actually prompted me to join these forums was Ariolan throwing out the accusation that 40K was a chauvanistic game, a claim that was echoed by more than a few others. This was the thread "I may have solved the female problem." to be exact. You may also remember that I called that out as the absolute pile of bull that it was.

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Kanluwen said:

 

First off: Are you kidding? Frazzled loves me. I amuse him greatly when it comes to dealing with the heathen masses of Dakka. And Warseer's full of the trash that can't make it on Dakka without slinging crap around in defending their points(see above post I'm quoting).

 

So, where can I find "Disciples of the Dark Gods"? Because I'd love to know the exact timeframe and setting of it. Sounds like it may be something actually worth reading. Or probably another fanwank piece like the Sisters fandex that continually shows up.

 

Post-Vandire, the Frateris Templars were banned, banned, banned, banned from being an actual established military unit. Do they still crop up? Sometimes. But then they're untrained rabble given weapons and pressed into service for those ever so lovely 'Wars of Faith' that you and Melissia love to mention as some kind of evidence that Sisters of Battle are some kind of highly trained warriors on par with the Adeptus Astartes.

 

PS: It's not trolling when I point out your idea is full of fail and requires a complete reinvention of established canon to bring in one thing that really isn't necessary.

 

Ah, so Wintermute threw you out this time.  I had wondered.

And...  Disciples of the Dark Gods is a book from the Dark Heresy series of Role play books, which you may have heard of, and is set around 815 M41.  And, at this point they are still a match for storm troopers, one on one.  In the Calixis Sector, the pre-Thorian church is still a player behind the scenes. 

I reserve declarations of Fail for HBMC, Kanwulen, Shumagorath (not sure if he's a member of this board, but I doubt that it will be long now) and anyone else who hasn't bothered to read the books of the gaming system we're discussing and wants to try and tell me what the fluff is.  (as far as the rest of hte glass houses buisness, I've very rarely had problems with mods.  I also try and give a reason and cite sources)

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BaronIveagh said:

Kanluwen said:

 

 

First off: Are you kidding? Frazzled loves me. I amuse him greatly when it comes to dealing with the heathen masses of Dakka. And Warseer's full of the trash that can't make it on Dakka without slinging crap around in defending their points(see above post I'm quoting).

 

So, where can I find "Disciples of the Dark Gods"? Because I'd love to know the exact timeframe and setting of it. Sounds like it may be something actually worth reading. Or probably another fanwank piece like the Sisters fandex that continually shows up.

 

Post-Vandire, the Frateris Templars were banned, banned, banned, banned from being an actual established military unit. Do they still crop up? Sometimes. But then they're untrained rabble given weapons and pressed into service for those ever so lovely 'Wars of Faith' that you and Melissia love to mention as some kind of evidence that Sisters of Battle are some kind of highly trained warriors on par with the Adeptus Astartes.

 

PS: It's not trolling when I point out your idea is full of fail and requires a complete reinvention of established canon to bring in one thing that really isn't necessary.

 

 

 

Ah, so Wintermute threw you out this time.  I had wondered.

And...  Disciples of the Dark Gods is a book from the Dark Heresy series of Role play books, which you may have heard of, and is set around 815 M41.  And, at this point they are still a match for storm troopers, one on one.  In the Calixis Sector, the pre-Thorian church is still a player behind the scenes. 

I reserve declarations of Fail for HBMC, Kanluwen, Shumagorath (not sure if he's a member of this board, but I doubt that it will be long now) and anyone else who hasn't bothered to read the books of the gaming system we're discussing and wants to try and tell me what the fluff is.  (as far as the rest of the glass houses buisness, I've very rarely had problems with mods.  I also try and give a reason and cite sources)

So you've read "Deathwatch"? Huh. I didn't know it was out. Can I borrow your time machine to find out this week's lotto numbers?

Because this is "Deathwatch", not "Dark Heresy" or "Rogue Trader". They're interconnected systems, surebut they are not the same.

I've not posted on Warseer for quite awhile, but I can if you want. I don't care for the place, with the constant "I know this and can't tell you, so take my word on it" crap that goes on.

 

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Kanluwen said:

 

So you've read "Deathwatch"? Huh. I didn't know it was out. Can I borrow your time machine to find out this week's lotto numbers?

Actually, Deathwatch is out. Or, at least, if you were lucky enough to get a copy from Gencon, or am just lucky enough to know the devs and am able to order a book early, Deathwatch is out.

For instance, I have a copy of Deathwatch, and I have no timemachine, though I would love to get my hands on one.

And now I'll leave you all to your trolling/counter-trolling!

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MILLANDSON said:

Kanluwen said:

 

 

So you've read "Deathwatch"? Huh. I didn't know it was out. Can I borrow your time machine to find out this week's lotto numbers?

 

 

Actually, Deathwatch is out. Or, at least, if you were lucky enough to get a copy from Gencon, or am just lucky enough to know the devs and am able to order a book early, Deathwatch is out.

For instance, I have a copy of Deathwatch, and I have no timemachine, though I would love to get my hands on one.

And now I'll leave you all to your trolling/counter-trolling!

I wish I had gone to GenCon. This is actually the first thing in a long time getting me interested in a D20 system, simply because I've always loved the Deathwatch/Ordo Xenos.

 

How's the artwork/fluff in the book?

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BaronIveagh said:

Um... Kanwulan, this isn't a D20 system...

 

Do you have the Dark Heresy book or the Warhammer Fantasy RPG..?


Nope, but again this isn't Dark Heresy or Warhammer Fantasy RPG, now is it?

 

Go cry some more about femmarines somewhere. I'm trying to get some info about something I'm interested in from someone who actually has the book, given that I have no FLGS stocking it locally.

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Kanluwen said:

BaronIveagh said:

 

Um... Kanwulan, this isn't a D20 system...

 

Do you have the Dark Heresy book or the Warhammer Fantasy RPG..?

 


Nope, but again this isn't Dark Heresy or Warhammer Fantasy RPG, now is it?

 

 

Go cry some more about femmarines somewhere. I'm trying to get some info about something I'm interested in from someone who actually has the book, given that I have no FLGS stocking it locally.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you honestly want decent information about this game, you might want to stop and rethink your posts and turn them into a less aggressive nature to get anything useful accomplished on these boards. 

Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader were mentioned because they use the same system that Deathwatch does. 

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Kage2020 said:

ak-73 said:

 

 

I think it bears repeating: Pendragon didn't allow for female knights in its rulebook but I think (not sure, never owned the game) they brought out a supplement with which females could be played. (Not sure if that book sold or not though.) They realized a desires of female players and decided to help them a bit along without compromising the basic setting which is what the basic rulebook dictated.

 

 

Just so you know, the core Pendragon rulebook covered female warriors, at least in the fourth edition.  I'm afraid that earlier editions have gone the way of the Dodo when I left England.  It mentions a number of warrior women, how to handle women fighters in play, an offers unusual non-traditional ambitions for women (Boadicea's Daughters and Freija's Women).

So, yeah, they're covered.  On the other hand, they're also in the context of "how they could work" rather than "force them into the mould of a bionetically enhanced killing machines."  

That might be significant.  It might not.  I'll allow you to make up your own mind.

Kage

 

You have no choice but to allow me to though. Isn't there a 5th edition of Pendragon? Last time I played it myself it was the early to mid 90s.

 

Alex

 

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ak-73 said:

BaronIveagh said:

 

5th Edition was released by White Wolf, so some might take it with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

Still by the same author though, it seems.

 

Alex

 

Yeah, but you have to wonder how much creative control he has at CCP/White Wolf.  Personal experiance: some companies the editors will tell you the setting and what rules to put in it, and expect that you write something **** good.  Your IP or not. 

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SpawnoChaos said:

Kanluwen said:

 

BaronIveagh said:

 

Um... Kanluwen, this isn't a D20 system...

 

Do you have the Dark Heresy book or the Warhammer Fantasy RPG..?

 


Nope, but again this isn't Dark Heresy or Warhammer Fantasy RPG, now is it?

 

 

Go cry some more about femmarines somewhere. I'm trying to get some info about something I'm interested in from someone who actually has the book, given that I have no FLGS stocking it locally.

 

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you honestly want decent information about this game, you might want to stop and rethink your posts and turn them into a less aggressive nature to get anything useful accomplished on these boards. 

Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader were mentioned because they use the same system that Deathwatch does. 

Baron won't add anything remotely useful to any conversation, so it's really quite best to ignore him and let him think he's superduperspecial like everywhere else does.

 

As I stated: no FLGS that has it so I can peruse a copy of any of those, nor any groups outside of the one I'm forming with some friends. I'm wanting to know the level of background and fluff before I invest in something that could be a dud for my group gaming-wise, to where I'm basically going to be using it as reference material for my 40k armies.

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Kanluwen said:

As I stated: no FLGS that has it so I can peruse a copy of any of those, nor any groups outside of the one I'm forming with some friends. I'm wanting to know the level of background and fluff before I invest in something that could be a dud for my group gaming-wise, to where I'm basically going to be using it as reference material for my 40k armies.

There's probably slightly more fluff in it than in either of Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy, and it's all of good quality. It's probably, production value-wise, the best core book of the lot.

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Kanluwen said:

 

Baron won't add anything remotely useful to any conversation, so it's really quite best to ignore him and let him think he's superduperspecial like everywhere else does.

 

As I stated: no FLGS that has it so I can peruse a copy of any of those, nor any groups outside of the one I'm forming with some friends. I'm wanting to know the level of background and fluff before I invest in something that could be a dud for my group gaming-wise, to where I'm basically going to be using it as reference material for my 40k armies.

 

*sigh*

This link should help you on that.  Or not.  www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/deathwatch/minisite/support/deathwatch-jericho-reach-preview.pdf

 It's a preview of the Deathwatch fluff section.

 

 

 

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really? We're arguing over female space marines AGAIN?sorpresa.gif

 

The biggest problem I find when arguing over this is that the proponents of female marines require actual space marines, angels of death, progenoids and all or it isn't good enough. I've not encountered a pro femmarine that would settle for 'black ops genetically altered power armour wearing warrior' - so basically the same in every way - except they aren't a space marine. No they must be a space marine.

It's like they think being a space marine is the glass ceiling of 40k and great moral victories will ensue if it is breached by women.

 

Marines being male is simply part of the setting, just as orks being greeen. If someone wanted to play a purple ork I'd look at them funny too. Or the fact that there's only one emperor and 20 primarchs. I'd look askance at anyone that insisted they play the 3rd emperor george alongside the 2nd emperor fred. Or heaven forfend they play a FEMALE emperor - he wasn't called an empress after all.

Female Mechanicus Tech Guard? Sure. Female elite guard of planet X's governor replete with genetic manipulation? Sure.

But no female blood angels, space wolves, ultramarines or dark angels.

The frateris militia aren't the equivalent of adepta sororitas. For a start the frateris was a militia composed of anyone. Second that's like saying playing a female imperial guard is the same as playing a female space marine. The frateris were a rabble of peasants, they weren't super trained power armour wearing holy warriors.

Hellebore

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BaronIveagh said:

ak-73 said:

 

BaronIveagh said:

 

5th Edition was released by White Wolf, so some might take it with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

Still by the same author though, it seems.

 

Alex

 

 

 

Yeah, but you have to wonder how much creative control he has at CCP/White Wolf.  Personal experiance: some companies the editors will tell you the setting and what rules to put in it, and expect that you write something **** good.  Your IP or not. 

 

Given that Pendragon seems to be the work of his lifetime, I doubt he'd put his name on sth he hated.

 

Anyway:

http://dungeonmum.blogspot.com/2010/05/handbags-at-dawn.html

 

"Pendragon, 5th edition say this:

To be faithful to the sources, the role of female characters is limited to those roles found in literature and history. The core game does not go out of its way to be politically correct or modern — those concessions appear in later supplements.

Pendragon does then mention some historical exceptions: Joan of Arc, Sigelgaita (the wife of the Norman mercenary Robert Guiscard who fought at his side in full armour between having eight kids), the bold ladies of “The Order of the Hatchet”, plus a couple of others."

 

Sounds like an author speaking out of dedication to the sources.

 

@Hellebore: Yes, it's about the prestige. Can you blame women for not wanting to be a cheap (or not-so-cheap) copy?

 

@MILLANDSON: Grain of salt. :-)

 

Alex

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MILLANDSON said:

Kanluwen said:

 

As I stated: no FLGS that has it so I can peruse a copy of any of those, nor any groups outside of the one I'm forming with some friends. I'm wanting to know the level of background and fluff before I invest in something that could be a dud for my group gaming-wise, to where I'm basically going to be using it as reference material for my 40k armies.

 

 

There's probably slightly more fluff in it than in either of Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy, and it's all of good quality. It's probably, production value-wise, the best core book of the lot.

Excellent. Gonna place an order tomorrow with The Warstore then. :) Thanks Millandson.

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Hellebore said:

 

The frateris militia aren't the equivalent of adepta sororitas. For a start the frateris was a militia composed of anyone. Second that's like saying playing a female imperial guard is the same as playing a female space marine. The frateris were a rabble of peasants, they weren't super trained power armour wearing holy warriors.

 

 

 It's the 2nd most common argument in 40k after 'What happened to the missing Primarchs?'

Hellebore, the Frateris Templars and frateris militia are two different things. 

"The Frateris Templar was an all male military order and operated effectively as the private army of the Ecclesiarchy. At times it was used to crush revolts against Ecclesiarchy power.... After Vandire's defeat the Frateris Templar was disbanded and the Ecclesiarchy was barred from ever holding any men under arms. Their role was taken over by the Adepta Sororitas." 

"The Frateris Militia are masses of the faithful gathered to fight wars of faith against enemies of the Emperor and mankind. They constitute the unofficial and generally ill-trained troops who fight, indirectly, in the interests of the Ecclesiarchy. Although most such mobs consist of no more than faithful Imperial citizens, some "brothers" have had military experience in the Imperial Guard or a PDF."

 

In Disciples of the Dark Gods section on the Temple Tendency, we find that the TT still keeps men under arms, though they are now called the Chantry Guards, the text makes it clear that these are a much reduced Frateris Templars.  The stats for a 'basic' trooper have them outfitted as a storm trooper.

 

@Millandson: and now you know what I was talking about when I said I wasn't talking about you.

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The Temple tendency is an outlawed branch of the ministorum, so what it does and doesn't do is entirely moot. Just as an outlaw branch of the ad mech could create genetically modified female warriors as I've suggested before. However they wouldn't be space marines, despite acting like them. Even the Templars aren't as well equipped as the sororitas.

In a sororitas only campign (something several female friends would be interested in) I wouldn't demand to play a male sister, I'd be happy with an equivalent of some kind, like a power armoured inquisitorial storm trooper etc.

Tiger's Heart said she'd prefer to play a Callidus in any marine campaign we might play, which are interestingly enough, almost all female because women generally control polymorphine better.

 

But demanding to specifically play female space marines is like RPing in the Wheel of time and demanding to play male Aes Sedai. Not male brothers of th dragon (or whatever they were called) but literal male aes sedai, hanging out with the female only practitioners. Screw you Jordan, you and your sexist 'only women can use the weave cuz of taint' I demand male aes sedai, Viva la jockstrap!

I would allow male non aes sedai practitioners, because they exist, but I wouldn't allow male aes sedai because they don't exist. It's got nothing to do with sexism or whathaveyou and everything to do with setting rules.

 

A setting is defined as much by its attributes as it is by its handicaps. If you start dropping the handicaps the coehsiveness of the setting falls apart and you might as well be playing generic scifi.

Hellebore

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Hellebore said:

The Temple tendency is an outlawed branch of the ministorum, so what it does and doesn't do is entirely moot. Just as an outlaw branch of the ad mech could create genetically modified female warriors as I've suggested before. However they wouldn't be space marines, despite acting like them. Even the Templars aren't as well equipped as the sororitas.

In a sororitas only campign (something several female friends would be interested in) I wouldn't demand to play a male sister, I'd be happy with an equivalent of some kind, like a power armoured inquisitorial storm trooper etc.

Tiger's Heart said she'd prefer to play a Callidus in any marine campaign we might play, which are interestingly enough, almost all female because women generally control polymorphine better.

 

But demanding to specifically play female space marines is like RPing in the Wheel of time and demanding to play male Aes Sedai. Not male brothers of th dragon (or whatever they were called) but literal male aes sedai, hanging out with the female only practitioners. Screw you Jordan, you and your sexist 'only women can use the weave cuz of taint' I demand male aes sedai, Viva la jockstrap!

I would allow male non aes sedai practitioners, because they exist, but I wouldn't allow male aes sedai because they don't exist. It's got nothing to do with sexism or whathaveyou and everything to do with setting rules.

 

A setting is defined as much by its attributes as it is by its handicaps. If you start dropping the handicaps the coehsiveness of the setting falls apart and you might as well be playing generic scifi.

Hellebore

 

Not knowing anything about Wheel of Time, I'll nod and assume that you know what you're talking about. 

My point is that anytime the idea is broached on a forum, in any form, the response is that we're about to march in and force people to play them at gunpoint.  And then we have people like Kanwulan jump in and troll as hard as they can, and the thread gets locked before anyone can really have a civil discussion about the idea of how it might work, or how to have it with minimum discarding of fluff. 

This next part is not directed at you but rather a rant in general.

(RANT DETECTED)

I, for once, just once, would like to have a thread on this subject that didn't have people jump in and troll on any ideas that were brought up, or throw screaming fits that we were not following fluff.

We know that, OK?   You know what else we know?  The gender of space marines has very, very little baring on the actual setting.  But people positivly fly off the handle, as though it somehow threatens them.  On a lark, one of these days I'd like to go to thier RP group doing deathwatch as a member of the Rainbow Warriors chapter and complain about how my mark III makes my ass look big while playing a character with a lisp and a pink feather boa!  After all, space marines don't have a don't ask, don't tell policy in fluff either!  And don't think I'm not a good enough role player to pull it off!

And you know what, it'd be fluffy! 

And Fabulous!

All I ask is that people follow simple netiquette and if they see a thread on the subject, and, possibly, actually read some of it before posting.  If you see that it's not a discussion about if it's fluff, but rather how it 'might' happen in fluff (or it's a game you have no idea how to play in the first place), leave well enough alone!  Go troll /tg/ or something! 

[/rant]

 

 

 

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But doesn't it depend on the context of the OP's question? This thread (for instance) I took the OP to be asking for guidance on the fluff and if such a thing as Female Space Marines existed (in the fluff). This would be different from someone starting a thread along the lines you specified "How do I incorporate female characters with a minimum bending of fluff?"

If they didn't care at all about fluff, then the answer is easy - a Space Marine is a Space Marine, gender is immaterial. But that doesn't appear to be the case in the threads I have seen - The OP wants to try and do it while maintaining the fluff. In that situation, they are inviting the fluff Nazis and I would say are fair game.

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Darq said:

But doesn't it depend on the context of the OP's question? This thread (for instance) I took the OP to be asking for guidance on the fluff and if such a thing as Female Space Marines existed (in the fluff). This would be different from someone starting a thread along the lines you specified "How do I incorporate female characters with a minimum bending of fluff?"

If they didn't care at all about fluff, then the answer is easy - a Space Marine is a Space Marine, gender is immaterial. But that doesn't appear to be the case in the threads I have seen - The OP wants to try and do it while maintaining the fluff. In that situation, they are inviting the fluff Nazis and I would say are fair game.

 

Granted, in this case, I agree with you, however, my point is that it doesn't matter what the op writes, the result is always the same.  I started a thread named something similar to what you mention (whether FSM resin bits would sell).  Kanwulen and his pals hopped in and got it locked within three pages, despite the efforts of the mods and the op to keep it on topic. 

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You mean the thread that lasted 6 pages, and was locked right after your final post in itthe one where you claimed you'd finance a full run of someone sculpting a full line of Female Space Marine models?

 

Huh. Funny how that works.

 

Anyways, this thread is about the actual fluff way of fitting females into Deathwatch. Since you're so hot to trot about reading the thread and all.

Which is to say: female Inquisitors or Sisters of Battle modified to come into it.

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