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Philip S

Rouge Trader (1987) era Sisters of Battle = Space Marines?

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SpawnoChaos said:

 I would use the 2 missing Primarchs and their legions to allow for this notion. Pretty much allows full autonomy on the possible creation of female space marines.

Actually, the Horus Heresy novels have commented on that, and the two missing Primarchs are called "lost brothers", which would seem to suggest that they are male.

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MILLANDSON said:

SpawnoChaos said:

 

 I would use the 2 missing Primarchs and their legions to allow for this notion. Pretty much allows full autonomy on the possible creation of female space marines.

 

 

Actually, the Horus Heresy novels have commented on that, and the two missing Primarchs are called "lost brothers", which would seem to suggest that they are male.

 

They also imply that Dorn had never met them, so it may have been him speaking generically. 

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 I would agree with that...

...But.  

There are numerous anthropological uses of a single gender reference being used to apply to both male and female (biological and sexual).  So, yeah, there are still ways out for those that wish to find them.  After all, reality is stranger than fixation. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Kage

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Kage2020 said:

 I would agree with that...

...But.  

There are numerous anthropological uses of a single gender reference being used to apply to both male and female (biological and sexual).  So, yeah, there are still ways out for those that wish to find them.  After all, reality is stranger than fixation. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Kage

I agree with Kage's sentiments here. After all, "Those who take up arms with me I shall call my brothers", doesn't necessarily imply that those who take up arms are all male. More like brothers in arms, comrades. happy.gif

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So I don't get it, what exactly is the discussion here?

It appears to be fairly obvious that in the GW canon, the marine augmentation simply does not succeed with women (I know I shouldn't always trust lexicanum, but it appears to specifically be cited in this case).

With the notion of female marines, if they exist, they probably don't serve the Imperium .  And I would guess that this is a very large if.  It is almost certain to say, that a female space marine (if such could possibly exist in the current canon), would certainly not be serving in the Deathwatch (without significant changes to the background).  So pretty much, the entire rulebook for this game is out the window.

But why do we even need to consider the possibility of female space marines? Is the concern purely that women players are concerned with having to play a male character?  That male players want to play a female character?

So does this mean its OK to play a male Sororitas?  How about all those other RPGs that have prereqs for taking certain classes (I remember plenty of prestige classes in D&D that require a female character, purely for fluff reasons)?  Is it perfectly fine to just throw all that out the window? Settings and systems exist for a reason.  They give a certain level of constraint to the players, so that they can't just make up whatever they want.  I mean, I'd love to play Robute Guillman, but I doubt I can do that using the character creation rules in DW.

I would hardly say that because a character in Deathwatch must be male (as per RAW), that the game is "a man's game."  Women will just have to play male characters.  Live with it.  Grow the proverbial "pair." If they actually consider themselves to enjoy the roleplaying hobby, that should not be a problem for them.  And if it is, an Ascension level character isn't that bad.

But seriously, just accept that its not in the current fluff (or at least, particularly common if it even possibly is), and make your own hose rules, and accept that what you are doing is not very canon. It's not like its real, it's an IP owned by GW.

 

And Baronlveagh, do know that I would have no issue to have my tabletop army fight against a space marine army fielded as females.  I would consider it one of "those" themed armies, like the Emperor's Pointy Sticks of TSOALR fame. Just don't try to alter canon when you're apparently not on GW's payroll.  Also, earlier you mentioned a theory on forcing GW to lose the 40k IP, explain please?

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SpawnoChaos said:

I would use the 2 missing Primarchs and their legions to allow for this notion. Pretty much allows full autonomy on the possible creation of female space marines.

This has actually been a fan theory for a long time. Though more often it's only one of the mystery legions that's flagged as being all female, with a female Primarch of course.

 

And as for why, well there's cause both reasoned and retarded. For the latter just look at the last time this topic became a major issue. More than a few people were posting to the thread accusations that the game was both incredibly racist and chauvanistic. While there may be some cause for the former, even if I think the specific example of the Blood Angels all being tall, blond haired, supermen is nonsense, the latter is utter crap. Based entirely on the premise that Space Marines are the premiere fighting force of the Imperium, and can only be male. While in some of the novels, such as Gaunt's Ghosts, it's mentioned that women attaining a high status in various organizations (in this case the Commissriat) is rare because of the added difficulties they face, this is merely an acknowledgment that a dystopian future still suffers from the same trends that we have in our modern time. Which I think touches upon another issue, that the Marines are the best the Imperium has, and there's frankly a bit of jealousy over the fact that they're all male. I think this does a disservice to the Sisters of Battle, myself.

Besides, the Imperium being an absolutely humungous place, I'm sure there are planets that have female dominated societies.

Some female posters have also came out and said that they, or other female players that they know, wouldn't be comfortable playing a male character. Well I'm quite alright with them houseruling female Marines in to existence for their game, I personally would not wish to play in such a game because the canon setting it what I absolutely love about the 40K gamelines. Frankly, the reason I drag myself in to these threads is mainly because I absolutely can't abide stupid accusations that the game is inherently sexist.

Now as for creating female Marines somehow being the key to making the number of people playing the hobby explode with an influx of demale gamers? No... Not to toot any horns, but my local GW store is one of the best around, and they approach everyone who walks in the door who's a stranger to the game, no matter what shape their genitals are, and from my frequent observances, they've had way more luck with getting boys interested in the hobby than girls, and female Marines aren't likely to change that a whole **** lot. As a bootcamp dropout, I can tell you that women just aren't as generally interested in the military as men, and 40K, when it comes right down to it, is a game about war. Modern western society, for all its egalitarianism and progress, still encourages women to be 'girly', tabletop miniature wargames don't fall under that, they haven't become mainstream and cool like video games have. Personally I like the women who are the exception to the rule myself, but I'm not going to blind myself to the fact that they're generally the exceptions.

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it's a game.

Yes you can do it.  If you really have fan boys going women can't be transformed cause their body would reject it then use a Female with male characteristic.

If any of you follow African professional  runner you know what I am talking about.

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Its a superstitious, paranoid, violent, bloody regime set in the 41st Millenium that is constantly invaded by aliens and demons and rebellion. And when the powers that be are not fighting the outside threats they are burning their citizens, sacrificing the gifted to a dead god, enforcing harsh taxes upon its citizenry and drafting millions of young people into its huge imperial guard. Then it tells them all they are corrupt, going to burn and their lives and even deaths belong to the emperor and the church for their use and "pleasure" to a certain degree. A society that thinks a ghost coated in oil powers the engine of their car and their microwave and their home computer is made from the skull and brain tissue of Uncle Edna.

A society that creates its ultimate warriors by more or less kidnapping young boys, putting them through death trials, pumping them up with drugs and "harvested" organs and conditioning them physically and mentally for only war. Where if a citizen is lucky, he may get to go the the sump hole on a Friday night and drain a bottle of wildsnake (complete with snake in the bottle) and smoke a lho-stick and not be kidnapped by some spoilt hive noble in power armor who wishes to kill the citizen or his friends or his family for sport.

A Empire where farmers are routinely burned alive because they used a trinket, rabbits foot, horse shoe or some other item of "luck" or "blessing" to help their crop grow. A culture that turns its defunct, failures and annoying into servitor droids and makes use of mass units of penal legions for suicide mission.

And we are complaining that its sexist?

I have no problem believing the implants a space marine receives only work on males. I also have no problem with the notion that this is just a belief they all share, much like the Machine Spirit.

If there were to be female marines, they would be a product of heresy. And even the SoB would hunt and kill them.

Obviously, Female Choas Space Marines are more likely, and fully plausible. Slaaneesh or Tzeentch would have no issue at all with it.

And a side note. You dont have to be more powerful, or even equal to police the Space Marines. In fact, at Origins this past year my Space Marine force had their collective Progenoid Glands handed to them by a Imperial Guard Army. In three turns.

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Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Its a superstitious, paranoid, violent, bloody regime set in the 41st Millenium that is constantly invaded by aliens and demons and rebellion. And when the powers that be are not fighting the outside threats they are burning their citizens, sacrificing the gifted to a dead god, enforcing harsh taxes upon its citizenry and drafting millions of young people into its huge imperial guard. Then it tells them all they are corrupt, going to burn and their lives and even deaths belong to the emperor and the church for their use and "pleasure" to a certain degree. A society that thinks a ghost coated in oil powers the engine of their car and their microwave and their home computer is made from the skull and brain tissue of Uncle Edna.

A society that creates its ultimate warriors by more or less kidnapping young boys, putting them through death trials, pumping them up with drugs and "harvested" organs and conditioning them physically and mentally for only war. Where if a citizen is lucky, he may get to go the the sump hole on a Friday night and drain a bottle of wildsnake (complete with snake in the bottle) and smoke a lho-stick and not be kidnapped by some spoilt hive noble in power armor who wishes to kill the citizen or his friends or his family for sport.

A Empire where farmers are routinely burned alive because they used a trinket, rabbits foot, horse shoe or some other item of "luck" or "blessing" to help their crop grow. A culture that turns its defunct, failures and annoying into servitor droids and makes use of mass units of penal legions for suicide mission.

And we are complaining that its sexist?

I have no problem believing the implants a space marine receives only work on males. I also have no problem with the notion that this is just a belief they all share, much like the Machine Spirit.

If there were to be female marines, they would be a product of heresy. And even the SoB would hunt and kill them.

Obviously, Female Choas Space Marines are more likely, and fully plausible. Slaaneesh or Tzeentch would have no issue at all with it.

And a side note. You dont have to be more powerful, or even equal to police the Space Marines. In fact, at Origins this past year my Space Marine force had their collective Progenoid Glands handed to them by a Imperial Guard Army. In three turns.

 

 

No one said that 40k ain't dark. The OP asked for a possible solution for a Women toe to toe with the boys. He asked about an older version of the system where the SoB where a bit more dangerous I would guess (since he thinks they are up to SM strength).

Obviously not a 40k thing but still not too stretched out of the actual story. Just remove the little boys for children and man by human (no squat, Ogrins, etc) and your little own 40k is all good and what not. No one said the Space GI Jane had to be a princess in power armor. It simply allows a women to play a SM without always having to put an "imaginary" male ish attitude to her obvious normal feminine reactions (just like us boyz do when play RPGs, it's human nature after all).

It does not remove a "profound" nature of the 40k universe IMO. It's a very small variation on the actual Space Opera fluff. All of this is really not science just fiction that your guys are kind of a bit stuck to.  Already male and females in the 40k universe have access to all the different jobs except SM.

Cain as teached a few women, Commisar, slept with a mechinus women priest, also he did have a Women Imperial Guard commander as very good friend and then when he had to mled the women only company with man only a bunch of the girls had promotion or kept their rank.

Women Inquisitor (Cains other girlfriend), women psykers, women planetary governors, then it's a stretch to Rogue Trader, etc.

SM are just an imaginary super warrior kids...

 

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Peacekeeper_b said:

If there were to be female marines, they would be a product of heresy. And even the SoB would hunt and kill them.

 

What a great set-up this would make. That might make it worth asking a friend's wife if she wants to play.

 

Alex

 

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KommissarK said:

So I don't get it, what exactly is the discussion here?

It appears to be fairly obvious that in the GW canon, the marine augmentation simply does not succeed with women (I know I shouldn't always trust lexicanum, but it appears to specifically be cited in this case).

With the notion of female marines, if they exist, they probably don't serve the Imperium .  And I would guess that this is a very large if.  It is almost certain to say, that a female space marine (if such could possibly exist in the current canon), would certainly not be serving in the Deathwatch (without significant changes to the background).  So pretty much, the entire rulebook for this game is out the window.

But why do we even need to consider the possibility of female space marines? Is the concern purely that women players are concerned with having to play a male character?  That male players want to play a female character?

So does this mean its OK to play a male Sororitas?  How about all those other RPGs that have prereqs for taking certain classes (I remember plenty of prestige classes in D&D that require a female character, purely for fluff reasons)?  Is it perfectly fine to just throw all that out the window? Settings and systems exist for a reason.  They give a certain level of constraint to the players, so that they can't just make up whatever they want.  I mean, I'd love to play Robute Guillman, but I doubt I can do that using the character creation rules in DW.

I would hardly say that because a character in Deathwatch must be male (as per RAW), that the game is "a man's game."  Women will just have to play male characters.  Live with it.  Grow the proverbial "pair." If they actually consider themselves to enjoy the roleplaying hobby, that should not be a problem for them.  And if it is, an Ascension level character isn't that bad.

But seriously, just accept that its not in the current fluff (or at least, particularly common if it even possibly is), and make your own hose rules, and accept that what you are doing is not very canon. It's not like its real, it's an IP owned by GW.

 

And Baronlveagh, do know that I would have no issue to have my tabletop army fight against a space marine army fielded as females.  I would consider it one of "those" themed armies, like the Emperor's Pointy Sticks of TSOALR fame. Just don't try to alter canon when you're apparently not on GW's payroll.  Also, earlier you mentioned a theory on forcing GW to lose the 40k IP, explain please?

The OP is wanting to set his game in the original 40k universe (Rogue Trader - late '80's) in which the Male only rule hadn't been made up yet - In fact there are illustrations of Soritas in Power Armor hunting down and spanking Space Marines. They were the Ecclisiarch's enforcers. As such, I don't believe current cannon is relevant to this thread.

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BaronIveagh said:

Hmm... Good point.  I seem to recall five chaos gods at this time, as well...

With that said, one can merely reiterate an old point of mine, and one that was made by peacekeeper_b about the idea that Marines can be killed by "mortals."  I'm not quite sure when Marines became Ninjas, but suffice to say I'm beginning to think of as Space MArnies, with the emphasis on Arnie. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Kage

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Now this thread has calmed down a bit, and got past the usual 'there can't be female space marines!',  I hope we can get back to my original topic.

To be clear I do not want actual 'female Space Marines' - I want Sisters of Battle who are as powerful as Space Marines - but by powered up by different means. I also want a way to weave it back into the narrative.

Concepts: My first thought: is to tie it into the ascent of the Emperor to godhood.

The sisters have faith based powers, but they are limited, and I thought of expanding this concept to include of a physical boost of some kind - perhaps by the ingestion of something holy like 'saint's blood'?

The drinking of saint's blood could change the Sister into something more. It could alter there physical being, and power up their faith based powers.

This would be similar to the first steps of transformation used in some Space Marine chapters: notably the Space Wolves, but also the Blood Angels (transfusion of blood containing their primarch's blood), and hinted at with the Dark Angels.

Blood drinking rituals seem like a good first step.

Implants? As to later implants, I'm not 100% sure I want to go with the biological implants of the marines, and maybe more 'bionic' implants and tending towards some of the Japanses styles of augmentation, or sophisticated soul manipulation?

I'm open to suggestions on this.

As to powers I would like to see for the Sisters - 'chaos' immunity (they already have a power), psi-drain, rapid healing and resurrection. Perhaps even a 'rage zombie' state when killed before the body has a real chance to repair, and the snap back into their usual Sister role. Another power could be to sap the will of those they are in conflict will - a golden halo effect that calms the masses.

The Sisters would be very hard to actually kill and keep dead. Many Space Marine may find it hard to fire on a Sister! The halo effect could make them seem 'perfect' and 'pure'.

Weaving it in: This concept would then be overlaid onto current background, bring the Sisters into line with the Space Marines.

To feed it in under the GM's control - this new type of Sister would mostly affect a cult within the Sisters at first, and the GM could choose how powerful that cult is - from 'nothing' to 'nearly all Sisters'. This means some regular Sisters may not be that powerful, but the 'heroes' of the Sisters are, and the living 'Saints' are very powerful. This revelation could be shocking to a Marine player.

As an RPG concept for a campaign, perhaps the Space Marines (loyal to the concepts laid down by the original Emperor) and the Sisters of Battle (loyal to the new Emperor himself) come to blows. I'm sure the Space Marines will not like what they see in the Sisters changing over time. This could lead to a new heresy at the end of an arc?

The Sisters could be using their policing powers to monitor the marines and build up data for later plans. A good sub-plot reason for a Sister to join Deathwatch. As this concept is 'house-rules' the Player may not know what the Sister is up to, or exactly how powerful she really is.

This does move the Emperor towards strongly towards becoming a 'god' (which the marines will not like - except the Word Bearers! - perhaps they change and become an ally of the Sisters against the other marines?), but the loyal Space Marines may see this as a 'chaos god'. Sooner of later there will be war. I suspect that if the Sisters have a strong 'aura' effect that most IG will side with them - I siren effect (saints are like angel). This would put the Space Marine in a very tough position - but all the more heroic if they win - but I kinda like the idea of a stalemate.

Another alternative is they become rivals for glory, and the Sisters start to take on Space Marine like roles. The IG start calling in the Sisters instead of the Marines!

In a game of Deathwatch the Sister may be there to observe how the Space Marines function with an aim to setting up their own 'deathwatch', or the Sisters already have a secret 'deathwatch' program and is collaborating.

?

Philip

 

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What are you really after here though? Are you trying to capture the essence of the original RT '87 setting or have a reason to have a female in the team? If its the first, then as several people have pointed out, Space Marines would need to considerably adjusted. They wouldn't be raised from pups, educated and noble they would be criminals changed as already guilty adults. They would also **** well know why the Sister's are around.

 

So my question is WHY do you want to do this - what is your goal?

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Darq said:

What are you really after here though? Are you trying to capture the essence of the original RT '87 setting or have a reason to have a female in the team? If its the first, then as several people have pointed out, Space Marines would need to considerably adjusted. They wouldn't be raised from pups, educated and noble they would be criminals changed as already guilty adults. They would also **** well know why the Sister's are around.

 

So my question is WHY do you want to do this - what is your goal?

 

Not sure but a hybrid of various edition settings would be  a legitimate interpretation. It's not Canon but it's anybody's choice.

 

Alex

 

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ak-73 said:

Darq said:

 

What are you really after here though? Are you trying to capture the essence of the original RT '87 setting or have a reason to have a female in the team? If its the first, then as several people have pointed out, Space Marines would need to considerably adjusted. They wouldn't be raised from pups, educated and noble they would be criminals changed as already guilty adults. They would also **** well know why the Sister's are around.

 

So my question is WHY do you want to do this - what is your goal?

 

 

 

Not sure but a hybrid of various edition settings would be  a legitimate interpretation. It's not Canon but it's anybody's choice.

 

Alex

 

Legitimate is immaterial - Philip can do whatever he wants. That's kind of my point or question. Is he after the board judging the canon legitimacy of his setting? Is he asking about the playable viability?

Thinking about it, Its a neat idea for a one-off, kind of a space going Inglorious Bastards or Dirty Dozen. Only problem he might have would be if he intends to fit it into any ongoing supplements / adventures which have a very specific interpretation of what a Space Marine is and how they act.

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Well, since we were pretty much de-railed earlier on, and because it's been a while since I gave one of Phil's concepts a proper "pop..." And if for no other reason it's discussion that lies outside of the specific dictates of the "canon." :D  (And you're 'blog isn't moving anywhere with regards to the AdMech, Phil... :D)

Philip S said:

I want Sisters of Battle who are as powerful as Space Marines

I will once again reiterate that much of the power attributed to Marines is mostly becoming this one whole big tiresome act of munchkiny-goodness feedback.  We go from powerful humans in powered armour, to He-man with all the powers of Greyskull behind them.  Hence they go from being four times stronger than an average human (which can put them in the upper 10th percentile if not more), to being 22-23 times stronger.  Power armour for the Adepta Sororitas isn't as great because they're not Marines, etc.

I'm rambling.  The point is that when it comes down to it, they're both power armour-wearing troops with access to advanced weaponry.  If you remove the focus away from the "strong/big is 'ard" by focusing on ranged combat, the Marines' advantages are somewhat levelled.  Except, of course, when they're systemically reinforced, which is seemingly the case with the 40k RPG line.

With that said, though, moving onwards...

Philip S said:

...but by powered up by different means.

 

I'm sure that you've gone down there already (I'm replying as I'm reading) but the obvious thing to do is hype up their connection to the Emperor.  You run into the problem that you're going to have to make the Emperor an actual god rather than one that is interpreted as such, which can be another interpretive problem to some, but moving onwards again.

Philip S said:

Concepts: My first thought: is to tie it into the ascent of the Emperor to godhood.

Ah, yes, there it is.  My own personal approach would be to tie it into what I refer to as the Twin, but then again I'm a fan that the state religion in the 40k universe is entirely debased, and since the Twin is Malal-reimagined (in many ways)... Well, you get the point.  That is, however, besides the point.  As long as you're comfortable with accepting the tenets of the Cult Imperialis as true, then you're good to go.

Philip S said:

The sisters have faith based powers, but they are limited, and I thought of expanding this concept to include of a physical boost of some kind - perhaps by the ingestion of something holy like 'saint's blood'? 

 

Rituals such as you mention could indeed be a component.  I would be wary about another resource pool in the official 40k RPG line, or some form of "Blood Pool" to see how much you power your abilities, though it could still remain a required fetish.

On the other hand, I would tend to avoid the idea that the "Blood of the Saint" is going to change the Sister in the same kind of way as Primarch geneseed.  It just comes of as a tad bit on the lame side.  Thus: 

Philip S said:

The drinking of saint's blood could change the Sister into something more. It could alter there physical being, and power up their faith based powers.

Yeah, this is something that I would personally try and avoid.  Do they really need to be a parrot to the Space Marine?

Philip S said:

Implants? As to later implants, I'm not 100% sure I want to go with the biological implants of the marines, and maybe more 'bionic' implants and tending towards some of the Japanses styles of augmentation, or sophisticated soul manipulation?

Depends on how much "toe treading" you want to do.  Cybernetics puts it into the realm of the Adeptus Mechanicus as much as bionetics puts it into the realm of the Space Marines... and the Adeptus Mechanicus.

With that said, I'm currently watching Supernatural Season 4 and the whole "demon blood" is reminding me of some of what you're after.  Just thought that I would mention.  If I see one mention of a Rugaroo you're in trouble, though. ;)

Philip S said:

As to powers I would like to see for the Sisters - 'chaos' immunity (they already have a power), psi-drain, rapid healing and resurrection. Perhaps even a 'rage zombie' state when killed before the body has a real chance to repair, and the snap back into their usual Sister role. Another power could be to sap the will of those they are in conflict will - a golden halo effect that calms the masses.

I would personally imagine that you need a bit more of a focus or "theology" for the abilities so as to give them structure.  At the moment it seems, "Oooh, cool, let's give them an ability."  To do this you would probably need to focus more on the theology of the Cult Imperialis and what abilities might be sensibly open to them while making it thematically and narratively interesting.

Personally I would be looking at Valkyrie/harpy imagery, perhaps even extending all the way up to the kind of imagery associated with the Morrigan.

Philip S said:

Weaving it in: This concept would then be overlaid onto current background, bring the Sisters into line with the Space Marines.

Great. All we need is another bunch of over-powered chuckleheads.

Philip S said:

To feed it in under the GM's control - this new type of Sister would mostly affect a cult within the Sisters at first, and the GM could choose how powerful that cult is - from 'nothing' to 'nearly all Sisters'. This means some regular Sisters may not be that powerful, but the 'heroes' of the Sisters are, and the living 'Saints' are very powerful. This revelation could be shocking to a Marine player.

Well, invested in the "powers of a god" would tend to make one powerful, at least one would imagine.  They are an avatar; daimon.

Philip S said:

I'm sure the Space Marines will not like what they see in the Sisters changing over time. This could lead to a new heresy at the end of an arc?

As you're describing it, almost anyone is going to be highly interested in the "changing Sisters," especially the Holy Orders of the Inquisition.  And rival orders and schools within the Adeptus Ministorum.  After all, when you're entire gig is based upon how holy you are, it looks bad when someone is more holy than you, so it stands to reason that they're using nefarious methods to trump you.

The problem that you're having is fitting it in to the established storyline.  Of course, delving into the "Brides of the Emperor" angle would work quite well.  Of course, getting people to believe into their authority is still going to be problematic.

And that, I think, might be the end of it. :D

Kage

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Kage2020 said:

Hence they go from being four times stronger than an average human (which can put them in the upper 10th percentile if not more), to being 22-23 times stronger.  Power armour for the Adepta Sororitas isn't as great because they're not Marines, etc.

I've seen you mention this before, and I can't figure out where you're getting it from unless there are misconceptions involved. The main wargame has never given even a rough approximation of 'meaning' for the 1-10 ability score range used there, and the only other place that's given a more detailed/granular value is Inquisitor... where, while a Marine's strength of 200 is merely 4x that of the notional average guardsman's Str50 when viewed from one perspective, it fails to account for a few other elements of the Inquisitor system... namely that 101+ values for any characteristic are defined as beyond human capability (thus a Str200 marine is twice as strong as any unaugmented human can ever be, while the upper ten percent of hypothetical human strength would be 91-100 because anything above that is inhuman/superhuman), and that it's more accurate to define relative strengths based on chances of failure (Strength 75 has half the chance of failure of Strength 50, and is by that definition 'twice as strong').

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Kage2020 said:

Hence they go from being four times stronger than an average human (which can put them in the upper 10th percentile if not more), to being 22-23 times stronger.  Power armour for the Adepta Sororitas isn't as great because they're not Marines, etc.

 

I've seen you mention this before, and I can't figure out where you're getting it from unless there are misconceptions involved. The main wargame has never given even a rough approximation of 'meaning' for the 1-10 ability score range used there, and the only other place that's given a more detailed/granular value is Inquisitor... where, while a Marine's strength of 200 is merely 4x that of the notional average guardsman's Str50 when viewed from one perspective, it fails to account for a few other elements of the Inquisitor system... namely that 101+ values for any characteristic are defined as beyond human capability (thus a Str200 marine is twice as strong as any unaugmented human can ever be, while the upper ten percent of hypothetical human strength would be 91-100 because anything above that is inhuman/superhuman), and that it's more accurate to define relative strengths based on chances of failure (Strength 75 has half the chance of failure of Strength 50, and is by that definition 'twice as strong').

Even accepting that though, Kage's original point is basically that strength is not everything for a soldier. That at range strength actually becomes pretty irrelevant. 

So, even if a SM is 10 times as strong as a strong human, or 20!, so what? He's still an easy target for a normal guy with a precise anti-vehicular weapon. 

I tend to agree with Kage, SMs are somewhat over-rated, I watched the DW trailer movie today and it said a single SM is able to easily take on and beat a modern day division! Really? I don't accept that, it doesn't really make sense. A modern day division, or let's say more relevantly a IG company, possesses weapons that can take out armoured vehicles - I think they'd have a fair chance of taking down one marine. 

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

I've seen you mention this before, and I can't figure out where you're getting it from unless there are misconceptions involved.

 

 

It's possible, but in this case I'm going to roll with it being the other way around.  YMOV, but different interpretations are not necessarily misconceptions, just a lack of agreement.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

 

...is Inquisitor... where, while a Marine's strength of 200 is merely 4x that of the notional average guardsman's Str50 when viewed from one perspective, it fails to account for a few other elements of the Inquisitor system... namely that 101+ values for any characteristic are defined as beyond human capability (thus a Str200 marine is twice as strong as any unaugmented human can ever be, while the upper ten percent of hypothetical human strength would be 91-100 because anything above that is inhuman/superhuman), and that it's more accurate to define relative strengths based on chances of failure (Strength 75 has half the chance of failure of Strength 50, and is by that definition 'twice as strong'). 

 

 

Other than the spotty (if functional) game mechanics that come from GW, all that it does is argue the linearity of the reference system.  Thus, if average is defined as 50, then linearly 100 is twice that, etc.  That there might be some conflation between that linearity with the shaky mechanics of ability to produce an effect and the "power" of that effect is understandable.  In this case, though, it merely works on the idea that a "soldier" is fairly average when it comes to strength (both application and power).  System contrivances aside, or the same ones that create the "Imperial Space Marine Plasma Fist of Doom," it seems a reasonable base of reference and comparability so that one can look at agenda.  YMOV, though.

In short, I question your assertion that effect or application necessarily has anything to do with the power applied.  While it is possibly to mathematically extrapolate the abilities of Marines so that they're 64x the ability of the normal human, one can only point to the "Imperial Space Marine Plasma Fist of Doom" once again.  Or bullets bouncing of Marines' naked ass.

If that's what you want, then fine.  At the same time, linearly Marines are four times stronger than the average Human, and human extremes can take themselves to about twice as strong as the average human, other factors notwithstanding.  

On the other hand, you can try and work it out with the official mechanics as they're presented now, but it doesn't really address the "average" question, just the extremes that can apply.  Hence the point.

Ah well.  Back to the thread in hand.

Kage

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Adam France said:

Even accepting that though, Kage's original point is basically that strength is not everything for a soldier. That at range strength actually becomes pretty irrelevant. 

Aye, that's another point that was snowed under how AWESOMEZ Marines are.

Adam France said:

I tend to agree with Kage, SMs are somewhat over-rated, I watched the DW trailer movie today and it said a single SM is able to easily take on and beat a modern day division! Really? I don't accept that, it doesn't really make sense. A modern day division, or let's say more relevantly a IG company, possesses weapons that can take out armoured vehicles - I think they'd have a fair chance of taking down one marine. 

With that said, though, Marines are AWESOMEZ.  You have to remember than keying into the hyperbole (or so I would like to think) of such individuals as Alan Merrett.  I'm not sure that he made the statement, but when you think about "modern" divisions they ultimately have the ability to respond rationally to different threats.  40k doesn't tend to incorporate such things.  Marines are AWESOMEZ and that's all that makes a difference.  After all, how could every army ever prepare against the possible threat that a Marine might show up?  It makes no-never-mind that one might deal with armour-negating weaponry, just that you're dealing with Marine-negating weaponry.  Thus, we're in the cyclotron of 'fluff' just without the awesomeness.

YMWLV.

Kage

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Adam France said:

So, even if a SM is 10 times as strong as a strong human, or 20!, so what? He's still an easy target for a normal guy with a precise anti-vehicular weapon.

Hence why standard Astartes tactics tend to involve getting as close to the enemy as quickly as possible. I don't disagree with the basic point - that brute strength is largely pointless at long range. The use of jump packs and insertion by gunship, pod or teleportation, and their preference for comparatively swift vehicles are all means to limit their vulnerabilities and emphasise their advantages. Inhuman strength and considerable resilience are all the more effective at ranges where the enemy can only really bring small arms and knives to bear, so those are the ranges at which the Astartes should endeavour to fight.

A Marine isn't just the armour or the weapons or the biology... he's those things and the strategies that accompany them, the doctrines designed around their capabilities that make them terrifyingly effective shock troops. IMO, the combination of those elements is what makes the Astartes just so deadly, even when faced with "a normal guy with a precise anti-vehicular weapon".

Kage2020 said:

On the other hand, you can try and work it out with the official mechanics as they're presented now, but it doesn't really address the "average" question, just the extremes that can apply.  Hence the point.

Well, that's the other thing - looking at the characteristics in DH/RT/DW  themselves, a Marine's Strength Bonus is just over twice that of a normal, unaugmented human... it's only an extrapolation of them using the lifting/carrying table that creates the "22x stronger" notion.

In either case, the numbers involved are matters of interpretation rather than any demonstration of their power increasing. If anything, the "Plasma Fist of Doom" example demonstrates that they're actually less potent in Deathwatch - a Marine in Inquisitor (average Str 240 including armour) can deal 1d3+19 damage with his fists, greater than the average damage of a plasma gun... a starting average Deathwatch character can deal 1d10+10 damage with his fists, which is less potent than an Astartes plasma gun, accounting for penetration and the high-power setting...

Sooner or later, there's a means to view the differences in any way you want... which only really demonstrates that cross-system analysis like this isn't particularly fruitful.

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Kage2020 said:

 

With that said, though, Marines are AWESOMEZ.  You have to remember than keying into the hyperbole (or so I would like to think) of such individuals as Alan Merrett.  I'm not sure that he made the statement, but when you think about "modern" divisions they ultimately have the ability to respond rationally to different threats.  40k doesn't tend to incorporate such things.  Marines are AWESOMEZ and that's all that makes a difference.  After all, how could every army ever prepare against the possible threat that a Marine might show up?  It makes no-never-mind that one might deal with armour-negating weaponry, just that you're dealing with Marine-negating weaponry.  Thus, we're in the cyclotron of 'fluff' just without the awesomeness.

YMWLV.

Kage

 

You know, I've always wondered why, after the Emperor usd  them to conqure most of the galaxy, why the enemeies of mankind (internal and external) haven't developed as many power armor shredding weapons as one might think.

 

I mean, I'm sorry, no matter how awsome you are, multi-melta > meltagun > power sword > bolter > lasgun.

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