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Philip S

Rouge Trader (1987) era Sisters of Battle = Space Marines?

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Someone said Aliens, I just fantasied again about Replay running after a Hive Tyrant with a Milti-melta strapped to a rpometium flamer thrower.

"You tough you could escape by jumping story on me!"

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FatPob said:

 

one may consider the missing 2 chapters - perhaps it was the emperor's attempt with female primarchs (though I also believe it was so fans could create their own legions in the initial release of 40K) which failed - or perhaps it didn't fail and he kept it secret from everyone for his own private use.

Whatever as far as GW (and fanbois say) SM > SoB on all levels (though some may argue skill/training).

It's your game universe so it's up to you.

 

 

 

Well toe to toe maybe but on table top the Sisters can bring serious hurt. They are more numerous then marines for the pts.

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crisaron said:

FatPob said:

 

one may consider the missing 2 chapters - perhaps it was the emperor's attempt with female primarchs (though I also believe it was so fans could create their own legions in the initial release of 40K) which failed - or perhaps it didn't fail and he kept it secret from everyone for his own private use.

Whatever as far as GW (and fanbois say) SM > SoB on all levels (though some may argue skill/training).

It's your game universe so it's up to you.

 

 

 

Well toe to toe maybe but on table top the Sisters can bring serious hurt. They are more numerous then marines for the pts.

 

Which means they are less "awesomez". Anyway the 40K background is that there are no female Marines. Marines are the elite fighting force of Mankind, therefore any official female fighting force has to be < than SM. As for an "unofficial chapter" (see above) one would have to take into account that the organ enginerring process does not work for females. But one could let it work partially at least and compensate with increased specialization (some women being especially dedicated know that the need to be better (WS/BS?) than men in order to find acceptance).

 

Alex

 

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ak-73 said:

Which means they are less "awesomez".

I don't know. I'd feel more comfortable fighting overgrown men in power armor than fighting fanatical space nuns in power armor.

Besides, any Sister joining on a Deathwatch Killteam is probably able to make your average SM cry for his mother in less than a second. There is something about those stilletoes of theirs that make me instinctively try to cover my... lets say... vital assets.

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Darq said:

 

LOL but the 40k universe IS the canon. In the 40k universe Space Marines are men, Adeptus Soritas are women. Space Marines are enhanced 8 foot tall super soldiers, Soritas are elite trained devoute soldiers of the Ecclesiarch. Soritas are not Space Marines, which was the OP's question (I believe).

Now I agree completly that any GM can run his or her game any way they like, but I believe the point of the thread was to determine if Old School Soritas were equivilant of Space Marines.

 

 

"The 40k universe IS the canon" is a truism and was not what the quoted text really questions.  Rather, it merely points out that DW is merely a vehicle for interfacing with the setting, and that one of the commonly argued points of the 40k RPG franchise is that it allows you to play in the setting without having to make up everything yourself.

tallshortguy said >>>

Fluff wise a SM's strength and speed would be more than a match for several SoB's in CC.

I wasn't merely talking about close-quarter combat... but there we go.

As stated before, though, I don't need to augment Sisters to Marine levels since they are distinctive without such buffing.  If anything, it would be nice to systemically slightly-nerf Marines, but the chances of that happening are slimmer than an anorexic line.

Kage

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 Like I put forward earlier, it's also rather easy to give a Sororitas multiple implants that already have mechanics written for them in the other games. Seeing as how a Sororitas would most likely be Ascension level if they were to be added to a Deathwatch group, having a few implants and bionics isn't too hard to imagine with a hard life. Also, as I mentioned before it wouldn't put them equal strength with a Space Marine, especially one from the Deathwatch. However they might be just as useful, if not more so with the possibility of having skills and talents that the Marines don't have access to. Of course that last bit is only speculation, as we don't have the character creation of Space Marines yet, but I'd imagine that the Sororitas would have things that the Marines wouldn't, and vice verse. The true faith traits and such are something that's rather obvious, and I'm sure if I wasn't so tired I'd be able to come up with more.

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Kagra said:

 Like I put forward earlier, it's also rather easy to give a Sororitas multiple implants that already have mechanics written for them in the other games. Seeing as how a Sororitas would most likely be Ascension level if they were to be added to a Deathwatch group, having a few implants and bionics isn't too hard to imagine with a hard life. Also, as I mentioned before it wouldn't put them equal strength with a Space Marine, especially one from the Deathwatch.

But is that what female players want? To, in the end, still be less powerful than their male peers?

Kagra said:

However they might be just as useful, if not more so with the possibility of having skills and talents that the Marines don't have access to. Of course that last bit is only speculation, as we don't have the character creation of Space Marines yet, but I'd imagine that the Sororitas would have things that the Marines wouldn't, and vice verse. The true faith traits and such are something that's rather obvious, and I'm sure if I wasn't so tired I'd be able to come up with more.

 

Again I doubt that many females would appreciate it if they felt that one would have to put hard work into making their character just as "awesomez". To me, let the guys in most circumstances play the brutes. Let the girls surpass them in other areas if they want to: agility, dexterity, intelligence, charms.

 

In my experience most female players would be very at ease with that. It's just that they can't have the aura of the elite fighters of Mankind. Unless... you know unauthorized female chapter (see above).

 

Alex

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I'm just going to lead with the caviat that what I'm about to say isn't universal and won't apply to all female gamers, indeed may not even apply to all that many, but i've run across and I think is still worth mentioning.  I know of female players who would be severaly annoyed (and likely turned off from playing) by the 'you can excell in other areas' arguments. 

Because they want or only feal comfortable playing female characters, they are usualy shoehorned into the 'agile' the 'quick' or the 'charming' roles.  If the player is comfortable playing a male, or want's to play a "different skills auxillery" then the question of female space marines et al doesn't matter.  But what if this player wants to be the one who can stand infront of the buisness end of a heavy bolter, or lift and toss a rebel off a building with one hand.  Should this be an illegal character consept for female characters?

Again, weather or not this comes up entirely depends on your gaming group, and I'd wager for 70+ % of groups, will never matter.

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Quicksilver said:

I'm just going to lead with the caviat that what I'm about to say isn't universal and won't apply to all female gamers, indeed may not even apply to all that many, but i've run across and I think is still worth mentioning.  I know of female players who would be severaly annoyed (and likely turned off from playing) by the 'you can excell in other areas' arguments. 

Because they want or only feal comfortable playing female characters, they are usualy shoehorned into the 'agile' the 'quick' or the 'charming' roles.

 

Okay, I could have added perceptive, etc. too. But when it comes to raw physical strength?

And they can be physically strong females too but the idea that physically strong woman is just as strong as physically strong man is just make-belief. And if a woman was annoyed at my stating so, I would reply that she seems to be at odds with reality. Objectively speaking (and not making this into some kind of gender competition) women aren't even as fast as men. Men don't get pregnant. Women don't get to be as strong as men (and we're talking about the top end here).

 

There's limitations and if women want to escape into a reality where it's not so, the SM background indicates that the 40K world might not be best to do so.

 

Quicksilver said:

  If the player is comfortable playing a male, or want's to play a "different skills auxillery" then the question of female space marines et al doesn't matter.  But what if this player wants to be the one who can stand infront of the buisness end of a heavy bolter, or lift and toss a rebel off a building with one hand.  Should this be an illegal character consept for female characters?

Again, weather or not this comes up entirely depends on your gaming group, and I'd wager for 70+ % of groups, will never matter.

 

First case, don't. Whether male or female. At least pack a power armour and a refractor field. ;-) Second case, a power armour might give you a +20S bonus, you might get cybered up, whatever. If a woman really wants that, there are ways. But she'd be more of an exception than if the PC was male.

 

Alex

 

 

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ak-73 said:

And they can be physically strong females too but the idea that physically strong woman is just as strong as physically strong man is just make-belief. And if a woman was annoyed at my stating so, I would reply that she seems to be at odds with reality. 

 

Alex

 

Umm...How can this statement even be entered into a conversation about a game?  Again, this is not a game about modern warefare, or past warfare, or near-warfare.  Just reading "just make-believe" made me laugh out loud.  I think I said this somewhere before: It's a GAME where people are running around in power armor shooting rockets at each other!  At what level does it become believable?

If, as was mentioned elsewhere, old-tyme marines did not have genetic enhancment, etc., and were just thugs who were brainwashed and given PA and bolters...well, is it that big a stretch to IMAGINE that the SOB went out to round up all the violent, unstable women in the universe and gave them PA and bolters? 

Why would a SOB be with the DW?  A heritical cult is using Xenos tech, or helping Xenos infiltrators, or making the money they need to summon some demon by particpating in cold trade? Hmm...imagination is cool!

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Why this is such an issue with anyone makes little sense to me, play the game as you like, however...

Granted, the fluff states specifically that the Sisters lack the various implants of the Brothers, hence making them less of an individual force.  Why a Sister couldn't be given alteratoins to bring her up to the level of her Astartes Brothers makes no sense at all. But again, all that is based on the individual(s) running the game, and rather distorts the flavor of the Sister of Battle.

GW I think fails to give the Sisters enough credit for their Faith in the Emperor.  Unlike the Marines, a Sister's faith is not dependent on the psycho indoctrination the Marines recieve. It is something she is raised on, something she believes to the very core of her being without question.  Also, the Sisters have no other figure to "worship".  How often do you read an Imperial Fist marine, for example, cry, FOR DORN, as he charges into battle, rather than, FOR THE EMPEROR!.  Space Marines put their Primarchs on a pedestal on par with the Emperor, something which I think most Sisters would find rather abhorred.  It's often stated how the Emporer protects and gives strength to those who worship him, GW fails in that regard to recognize how strong the Sister's faith is. Yes, they have acts of faith which are very powerful, but shouldn't they carry this divine strength and protection around with them at all times? Would not the Emperor see fit to instil his might and protection in his most loyal and devoted warriors?  Seems to be a failure on the part of the canon in my eyes.

I think the Sisters do have one advantage, atleast in the eyes of the common Imperial citizen.  Unlike the Marines, the Sisters are a very real force. They gaurd the temples of the Imperium across a plethora of the Imperiums populated planets.  Marines however, are basically legendary figures who the vast majority of the Imperium will never witness beyond a bedtime story or a sermon at church.  What are you to fear more? the mystical super warrior who haunts your storied dreams or the woman down at the temple who wears power armor, carries a bolter the size of your chest and will gun you down should you desecrate her sacred temple. 

Real world example ~> Look at catholic school in the past (present?). The nuns were to be feared, they were free to whack you as hard as they like with a ruler, while otherwise you were simply told stories of punishment by some mystical being who you never saw or met.

All of this is of course meaningless as GW does little to support it, and very often, space marine novels seem to imply that the space marines are everywhere. However I did find it interesting to speculate.

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Depending on how lenient your group may be(or how secretive the character...), certain technologies might buff somebody, even a woman, up to the level of power an Astartes holds without the need for genetic modification and whatnot... if they were willing to go through some pretty unofficial, illegal, heretical channels. emot-tinfoil.gif

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Eponral said:

ak-73 said:

 

And they can be physically strong females too but the idea that physically strong woman is just as strong as physically strong man is just make-belief. And if a woman was annoyed at my stating so, I would reply that she seems to be at odds with reality. 

 

Alex

 

 

 

Umm...How can this statement even be entered into a conversation about a game? 

 

A certain amount of believability is desirable. Not to mention that it's a game that has been invented by guys who were conjuring up their boy's fantasies. The 40K universe is a boy fantasy.

 

Eponral said:

Again, this is not a game about modern warefare, or past warfare, or near-warfare.  Just reading "just make-believe" made me laugh out loud. 

You're invited. Someone who starts laughing will eventually stop laughing too and will likely find me sticking to the same things I have said before, so there is no use to laughing out at what someone else says if they can't be made to doubt themselves by that.

 

Eponral said:

I think I said this somewhere before: It's a GAME where people are running around in power armor shooting rockets at each other!  At what level does it become believable?

 

There's no point at which it does become unbelievable.

 

Eponral said:

If, as was mentioned elsewhere, old-tyme marines did not have genetic enhancment, etc., and were just thugs who were brainwashed and given PA and bolters...

 

Reread the 40K Compendium which belongs to the 1st Edition rules though.

 

Eponral said:

well, is it that big a stretch to IMAGINE that the SOB went out to round up all the violent, unstable women in the universe and gave them PA and bolters? 

Why would a SOB be with the DW?  A heritical cult is using Xenos tech, or helping Xenos infiltrators, or making the money they need to summon some demon by particpating in cold trade? Hmm...imagination is cool!

 

Right. I find imagination cool too and introducing female SMs just to please female players is... unimaginative. There's no female space marines, so be inventive about how to let a female player come up that's to her liking. There's no authorized female space marines we know of though. Perhaps one of the lesser known chapters is an all-female chapter in secret? Or a mixed chapter?

 

In any case zygotes (or did GW actually mean stem cells?) keyed to female hormones should be highly experiemental and prone to some malfunctions at least.

 

Alex

 

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ak-73 said:

Right. I find imagination cool too and introducing female SMs just to please female players is... unimaginative. There's no female space marines, so be inventive about how to let a female player come up that's to her liking. 

Well, we could allow for female Daemon-Prince(sses) to join the Kill Team but then would would have male players complaining about these incredibly powerful female characters... Gender wars, where the fun never stops.

So, yeah, you can mix and twist to have a female character powerful enough to join the Kill Team (how about a female Ascension Vindicare Assassin ? Those guys can evade any attack while dealing death on an industrial level. Or an Ascension Primaris Psyker ? They can kill any enemy 7.6 times before the SM are even aware it is there). The only limitation is that this character can't be a SM, unless you say "screw the canon" (which GW actually does every time they feel like it or every time Dan Abnett has a wonderful idea that doesn't match the established canon).

Boy, I can believe we're already in the fourth page of another of these threads...

It is late (CEST speaking) and I feel grumpy.

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Kyorou said:

ak-73 said:

 

Right. I find imagination cool too and introducing female SMs just to please female players is... unimaginative. There's no female space marines, so be inventive about how to let a female player come up that's to her liking. 

 

 

Well, we could allow for female Daemon-Prince(sses) to join the Kill Team but then would would have male players complaining about these incredibly powerful female characters... Gender wars, where the fun never stops.

So, yeah, you can mix and twist to have a female character powerful enough to join the Kill Team (how about a female Ascension Vindicare Assassin ? Those guys can evade any attack while dealing death on an industrial level. Or an Ascension Primaris Psyker ? They can kill any enemy 7.6 times before the SM are even aware it is there). The only limitation is that this character can't be a SM, unless you say "screw the canon" (which GW actually does every time they feel like it or every time Dan Abnett has a wonderful idea that doesn't match the established canon).

Boy, I can believe we're already in the fourth page of another of these threads...

It is late (CEST speaking) and I feel grumpy.

 

I think I said earlier on already: it seems to be less about the power level; more about not getting excluded from the prestige of the elite fighters of Mankind.

 

Alex

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ak-73 said:

 

[...]

A certain amount of believability is desirable. Not to mention that it's a game that has been invented by guys who were conjuring up their boy's fantasies. The 40K universe is a boy fantasy.

[...]

In any case zygotes (or did GW actually mean stem cells?) keyed to female hormones should be highly experiemental and prone to some malfunctions at least.

Alex

 

 

You having some serious GW fanboysism son! Still I laughed hard at your comments.

 

So to the OP you can do it with the acsenssion characters or use whatever suggestion to help your group get to it if this variation on the GW universe does not get your FanBoyz underwear all bunched up (cause we know it is uncomfortable).

 

 

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As far as I'm concerned, there are plenty of female "elite fighters of mankind" around that aren't space marines. Sisters of Silence and the Adeptus Sororitas are the main groups, not to mention that a female can hold any position in 40K that a male can (with the exception of space marines). That means that you could have a female with the Deathwatch group that's an assassin, psyker, Arbites, tech'ed out Magos, etc. 

Space Marine companies travel with "regular" humans and receive support from such adjutants to complete their goals. It's not out of the question to say that Deathwatch also sports such a cadre of individuals that assist the Ordo Xenos in the same fight as they do... some more literally than others. gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

If you have the time to utilize a concept that was introduced when 40K was still fresh off the imagination block, then more power to you. I salute you for your effort to re-envision 40K to the way it used to be so many moons ago. gran_risa.gif

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crisaron said:

ak-73 said:

 

[...]

A certain amount of believability is desirable. Not to mention that it's a game that has been invented by guys who were conjuring up their boy's fantasies. The 40K universe is a boy fantasy.

[...]

In any case zygotes (or did GW actually mean stem cells?) keyed to female hormones should be highly experiemental and prone to some malfunctions at least.

Alex

 

 

You having some serious GW fanboysism son! Still I laughed hard at your comments.

 

So to the OP you can do it with the acsenssion characters or use whatever suggestion to help your group get to it if this variation on the GW universe does not get your FanBoyz underwear all bunched up (cause we know it is uncomfortable).

 

 

 

You didn't read my posts here thoroughly though, pops. I said I am not a fan of the system, I think it's pretty solid though. Favourite system is still Harnmaster with some tweaks. Don't even have a 40K army.

But then again there's perhaps posters around here who can't respond to other people's viewpoints in a constructive manner and have to resort to false accusations of fanboyism as a bad substitute for argument. Keep laughing, dad. <g>

 

Alex

 

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I guess I was misunderstood somewhere.  I never said that anyone should, or shouldn't allow female SMs.  That is something for individual GMs and players to decide for themselves. What I find sort of ridiculous is the way in which someone wants to talk about THEIR game and THEIR players and people crap all over them.  GW owns 40K, and they never come out and say that people can't make female SMs, or vorpal bunnies or whatever else they want.  So why do other GMs and players think they need to continually puke up the same crap?  We get it, some people will never be happy with the idea of female SMs, or non-super-duper SM armor, or bolters that shoot through schools and the tree out back.  We get it, we understand.  Fine.  I guess what it really comes down to is (drum roll please) stop crapping on the people who disagree with you and let them enjoy the game their way. If you see a post that is going to bring up something you disagree with just leave.  Like if you don't want to see a show on TV, don't try to get the show taken off the air...just change the friggin' channel.  

 Unfortunetly I understand that some of  you are incapable of this.  I fully agree with the fanboy line, however.  I said in another post that there are a lot of 40k fans out there who could use a SM blowup doll. Might calm them down a bit.  

Personally, I would not let someone play a female SM or a male SOB, but I would never crap on someone else who wanted to. I would not tell them why they can't or shouldn't.  I'd either attempt to answer the OP or go look at another thread.

On a side note...I just started watching Battlestar Galactica on DVD.  Not sure if I like it yet or not.

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Eponral said:

 

I guess I was misunderstood somewhere.  I never said that anyone should, or shouldn't allow female SMs.  That is something for individual GMs and players to decide for themselves. What I find sort of ridiculous is the way in which someone wants to talk about THEIR game and THEIR players and people crap all over them.  GW owns 40K, and they never come out and say that people can't make female SMs, or vorpal bunnies or whatever else they want.  So why do other GMs and players think they need to continually puke up the same crap?  We get it, some people will never be happy with the idea of female SMs, or non-super-duper SM armor, or bolters that shoot through schools and the tree out back.  We get it, we understand.  Fine.  I guess what it really comes down to is (drum roll please) stop crapping on the people who disagree with you and let them enjoy the game their way. If you see a post that is going to bring up something you disagree with just leave.  Like if you don't want to see a show on TV, don't try to get the show taken off the air...just change the friggin' channel.  

 Unfortunetly I understand that some of  you are incapable of this.  I fully agree with the fanboy line, however.  I said in another post that there are a lot of 40k fans out there who could use a SM blowup doll. Might calm them down a bit.  

Personally, I would not let someone play a female SM or a male SOB, but I would never crap on someone else who wanted to. I would not tell them why they can't or shouldn't.  I'd either attempt to answer the OP or go look at another thread.

On a side note...I just started watching Battlestar Galactica on DVD.  Not sure if I like it yet or not.

 

 

 

You have a strange idea of c**pping. To quote from my first post in this thread:

"The long and short of it is, if you want female space marines or female support of the marines, do so by all means. I wouldn't expect too much public support by people here though."

Or from the second page:

"That's what I said: if you want to have Sisters of Battles as outlined in your game, more power to you."

 

It seems with the term fanboy some people have a new hammer and suddenly they are seeing nails everywhere. They even know better than me who or what I am a fan of and what not. :-)

And if I may add: given crisaron's favourite games, he seems to be more a fanboi of 40K Roleplay than me.

 

Alex

 

 

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I was not thinking of you, Alex, or any other specific person when I wrought the fanboy thing.  I'm just tired of seeing a thread that might be an interesting topic and have to re-read the same stuff that has been posted in every other thread to maybe, just maybe, find a nugget of response to the OPs.  Ya know?  I honestly think that there has been enough of the debate on SOBs and SMs and female SMs that everyone has drawn their own personal line in the sand, and those that want to entertain alternate possibilities should now be allowed to do so without those who are diametrically opposed jumping all over them...again.

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I haven't read the old RT for, well, twenty years now, but if originally Marines got most of their power from the armour, with the Black Carapace helping along, then Adepta Sororitas should be equal indeed, no problemo.

Current fluff says no, but we're not talking about the current fluff... To stay (relatively) faithful to that, just throw in some forbidden gene-tech, and you're done. I have some trouble believing that creating female combatants equal to Marines in ability and physique is impossible in 40K.

I like the idea of a cybered-up, battle-hardened female veteran, who's managed to don a Mark VIII and pass off as a dude. What happens when the Kill-team hits the showers?

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Quicksilver said:

Yeah, back to the OP's question.  In Rogue Trader (1987), that is before 1st edition Warhammer 40k, Space Marines wern't super-human, and therefore, were essentialy the equivilent of SOBs.

 

That is imprecise. This should be clarified - the first real details of the Space Marine creation process was already in the Warhammer 40K Compendium, which is a 40K Rogue Trader (that is 40K 1st Edition) Sourcebook. It details the 19 steps and it states specifically that it doesn't work for females.

 

However one could argue that a number of organs might work for females while others have... hicc-ups. :-)

 

Alex

 

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ak-73 said:

However one could argue that a number of organs might work for females while others have... hicc-ups. :-)

Just read over the whole "how to make a space marine" bit in Deathwatch now, and it seems all of the organs require a male host.

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