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Maester_LUke

Duplicates of Uniques vis-a-vis Shadows and Fear of Winter.

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To confirm:  I can dupe a version of Tyrion Lannister with a KLE Tyrion by either placing it directly on him, as a 0-gold cost Marshalling action (but it is playing the card) or I can pay 2 to put him into shadows, bring him out as normal and have him immediately "attach" as a dupe?

 

Also, though it's a bit unclear in wording with the core set, but Duplicates are considered "played?" So they are not exceptions to Fear of Winter?

 

 

 

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Maester_LUke said:

To confirm:  I can dupe a version of Tyrion Lannister with a KLE Tyrion by either placing it directly on him, as a 0-gold cost Marshalling action (but it is playing the card) or I can pay 2 to put him into shadows, bring him out as normal and have him immediately "attach" as a dupe?

Well, "Shadow cards cannot be marshalled directly into play" forbid this, but ktom said opposite, so I believe he confirmed this with Nate.

 Maester_LUke said:

Also, though it's a bit unclear in wording with the core set, but Duplicates are considered "played?" So they are not exceptions to Fear of Winter?

 

"Duplicates may only be played on unique cards that you control and own." - so, no doubt here I think - they are considered "played". It's consistent with all marshalling (e.g. placing into Shadow).

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Yes, duplicates are played (from your hand). So they count against Fear of Winter.

And when a duplicate is played, you are considered to have played a duplicate - which is titleless, textless and traitless. It is crest-less, too. So when you Marshal a dupe, you are not actually Marshalling a card with the Shadows crest, and thus the "cards with the Shadow crest cannot be Marshalled directly into play" rule doesn't apply.

If you are having conceptual trouble with that one, ask yourself this: After you dupe Renly Baratheon or Melisandre, can you use the Response of Royal Entourage? No, because you have not played a Lord or Lady character - despite the fact that a character card with the printed Lord or Lady trait has entered play from your hand.

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ktom said:

And when a duplicate is played, you are considered to have played a duplicate - which is titleless, textless and traitless. It is crest-less, too. So when you Marshal a dupe, you are not actually Marshalling a card with the Shadows crest, and thus the "cards with the Shadow crest cannot be Marshalled directly into play" rule doesn't apply.

If you are having conceptual trouble with that one, ask yourself this: After you dupe Renly Baratheon or Melisandre, can you use the Response of Royal Entourage? No, because you have not played a Lord or Lady character - despite the fact that a character card with the printed Lord or Lady trait has entered play from your hand.

No conceptual issue, just confirming that the 2nd part is also true... Can I also bring a dupe of a unique out of shadows... however expensive and roundabout?  And it does or does not count as bringing a card out of shadows, since it would only be a dupe?

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 Yes, Luke, your question is addressed at the end of the Shadows rules document.  You can pay the rest of a unique card's Shadows cost to bring it out of Shadows and attach it as a dupe.  This would still count as a card coming out of Shadows though.

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ktom said:

Yes, duplicates are played (from your hand). So they count against Fear of Winter.

And when a duplicate is played, you are considered to have played a duplicate - which is titleless, textless and traitless. It is crest-less, too. So when you Marshal a dupe, you are not actually Marshalling a card with the Shadows crest, and thus the "cards with the Shadow crest cannot be Marshalled directly into play" rule doesn't apply.

If you are having conceptual trouble with that one, ask yourself this: After you dupe Renly Baratheon or Melisandre, can you use the Response of Royal Entourage? No, because you have not played a Lord or Lady character - despite the fact that a character card with the printed Lord or Lady trait has entered play from your hand.

Hi, Ktom. we are also arguing this problem. we know "Duplicates have no text, titles, or traits" is from core set rule, but they doesn't descript that no crest. we don't know you said "It is crest-less,too" from where? thanks.

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Rex Tan said:

Hi, Ktom. we are also arguing this problem. we know "Duplicates have no text, titles, or traits" is from core set rule, but they doesn't descript that no crest. we don't know you said "It is crest-less,too" from where? thanks.
So... the position here is that a duplicate doesn't have traits, a title or text - ie, it has no identity other than as a "duplicate" - but does have crests? Really?

Beyond that general inconsistency, look at the definition of traits in the Core Set Rules:

Traits: Text designators that, while carrying
no rules in themselves, may be affected by other
cards in play. 

and compare that to the definition of crests in the Core Set Rules:

Crests: Visual designators that, while carrying
no rules in themselves, may be affected by other
cards in play.

With the exception that one is "text" and the other is "visual," they are exactly the same, right? So traits and crests are functionally equivalent. In fact, when they were introduced, FFG referred to them as being "essentially super-traits." As such, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to say that playing a duplicate, which has no identity or function other than as a duplicate, does not count as playing a crested card any more than it counts as playing a traited card.

There is no language in the rules that says dupes are "crestless," but other than the rulings and confirmation emails people have gotten from FFG on the subject, does the nature of a duplicate (as having no game identity other than as a duplicate - it's not even an attachment!) really need to be specifically spelled out to exclude crests? FFG should probably close the loophole and put in in the FAQ, but it isn't really necessary when you consider the larger definition of duplicates.

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I have a slightly different perspective on the problem. If I have Tyrion Lannister in play, and a copy of Tyrion Lannister in my hand (both from City of Secrets), I can still put the second copy of Tyrion into shadows by paying 2 gold. Its not a duplicate until it is played as a duplicate, the same way someone could use Aegon's Hill on it while its in my hand. Its not a duplicate at that point, its a character with all the traits and abilities and crests as the copy in play. So, there is nothing stopping me from playing it into shadows for 2 gold. Now, if I wanted to bring it out of shadows for the remainder of the gold cost during the appropriate action window I  could bring it out, but as it comes into play it would detect the other Tyrion Lannister I control and be attached, then, as a duplicate, and be traitless, textless, crestless. The same way that you can put multiple core Drogos into play, but the second and third would be added as duplicates.

Is that what you were asking?

When it says that Shadows cards cannot be marshalled directly into play, it means that you cannot put a shadows card into play without first putting it into Shadows. Because shadows cards can only come out of shadows and enter play at the start of each phase (there are exceptions in cards like Mandon Moore) by the time you marshall them into shadows yuo have passed the window where you can bring them out, and need to wait until the start of the next phase.

Thats my 2 cents at least

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Mathias Fricot said:

Is that what you were asking?
No. That's not what he's asking.

The question he was asking is if he has copy #1 of Shadows Tyrion in play and copy #2 of Shadows Tyrion in his hand, can he play copy #2 of Shadows Tyrion directly into play as a duplicate without putting it into Shadows first? He wants to say the 4 gold you paid in your example to put the dupe on Tyrion.

And he can. When you play the duplicate, you are considered to be playing a duplicate, not a Shadow card, so the restriction that all Shadow cards must go through Shadows in order to enter play do not apply. The discussion is centered around the fact that it is easy to see that in playing the dupe on Tyrion, you are not playing "Tyrion" or a "Lord" or a "character" because the FAQ specifically says the dupe has no title, trait or text. But since the FAQ does not say the dupe has no crest, there is some confusion over whether the dupe retains its Shadow crest and would therefore have to go through the Shadows area. As is, you could choose to put the card through Shadows and end up paying 4 gold to dupe Tyrion, but you are not required to. You could also choose to play it directly on him in Marshalling as a 0-cost dupe. It's up to you (and there are reasons why you might want to do it either way). The question was whether there is really a choice, or if the only way to dupe Tyrion with copy #2 of the Shadow version is to pay 4 and send the dupe through Shadows.

 

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