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Moneseki

Dark charm and rapid fire

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Hero with rapidfire gets DCed, and shoots one of the heroes. Can the DCed hero continue with rapid fire, spending 2 fatigue to attack monsters, or (evil smile) other heroes if that is desireed?

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Just off the top of my head I am pretty sure that the OL cannot force a hero to use fatigue.  This would mean that the overlord cannot add power dice to an attack via fatigure nor could the overlord access fatigue based skills such as Rapid Fire or Cleaving.

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Dark Charm only allows the overlord to make an attack with a hero, not to take any other actions.  Rapid Fire is used after making an attack, and therefore the overlord couldn't force the hero to use it, even if he was allowed to make the hero spend fatigue.

However, I believe the question was:  can the hero use Rapid Fire?  It looks to me like he can.  Rapid Fire is used after the hero makes a ranged attack, and Dark Charm forces the hero to make an attack...that fulfills the triggering condition (as long as the OL chooses a ranged weapon).  There's no rule that the hero has to control the first attack, and certainly no rule that it has to be during his turn (the FAQ explicitly allows using Rapid Fire in combination with a Guard order).  So it seems to me that if the overlord uses Dark Charm to force a hero to make a ranged attack, after the card is resolved, that hero has license to activate Rapid Fire to make a normal attack that he (the hero) controls.

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Antistone said:

Dark Charm only allows the overlord to make an attack with a hero, not to take any other actions.  Rapid Fire is used after making an attack, and therefore the overlord couldn't force the hero to use it, even if he was allowed to make the hero spend fatigue.

However, I believe the question was:  can the hero use Rapid Fire?  It looks to me like he can.  Rapid Fire is used after the hero makes a ranged attack, and Dark Charm forces the hero to make an attack...that fulfills the triggering condition (as long as the OL chooses a ranged weapon).  There's no rule that the hero has to control the first attack, and certainly no rule that it has to be during his turn (the FAQ explicitly allows using Rapid Fire in combination with a Guard order).  So it seems to me that if the overlord uses Dark Charm to force a hero to make a ranged attack, after the card is resolved, that hero has license to activate Rapid Fire to make a normal attack that he (the hero) controls.

Yes, the question was meant if the hero could continue, hoping for a free killingspree. Unless something preventing a hero to do this, I hope the OL in our campaign target Silhouette with Dark Charm, since she got 9 fatigues. Could be messy.

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Moneseki said:

 

 

Yes, the question was meant if the hero could continue, hoping for a free killingspree. Unless something preventing a hero to do this, I hope the OL in our campaign target Silhouette with Dark Charm, since she got 9 fatigues. Could be messy.

 

 

Can Rapid Fire be activated more than once in succession?  I suppose each attack is technically a new triggering condition, but something still smells funny to me.

As far as the hero rapid firing off DC, I concede the rules allow it, but I still don't like it. =P

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I'm not sure about this one. The hero is definitely making an attack, but the overlord controls the hero for the attack. Rapid Fire must be activated immediately after the attack, which might mean when the hero is still under OL control. (Except the OL is not allowed to do so.) By the time control of the hero returns to the hero player, the attack has already been resolved without using Rapid Fire. To me, it seems too late for the skill to be activated at that point.

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mahkra said:

I'm not sure about this one. The hero is definitely making an attack, but the overlord controls the hero for the attack. Rapid Fire must be activated immediately after the attack, which might mean when the hero is still under OL control. (Except the OL is not allowed to do so.) By the time control of the hero returns to the hero player, the attack has already been resolved without using Rapid Fire. To me, it seems too late for the skill to be activated at that point.

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Mahkra.  cool.gif

Once the hero takes back control, something else has happened and "immediately" no longer qualifies IMO.

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Steve-O said:


Can Rapid Fire be activated more than once in succession? I suppose each attack is technically a new triggering condition, but something still smells funny to me.

 

Yes.  That's been discussed several times, here and on BGG, and I'm pretty sure it was also the sole and entire reason for the Gauntlets of Power nerf (where you need to exhaust them to use the effect).

Corbon said:

Once the hero takes back control, something else has happened and "immediately" no longer qualifies IMO.

Um...what exactly has happened to prevent "immediately" from applying?

If you say "a card's effect has ended," then you have to allow Dodge cards to break Rapid Fire chains, which is...unexpected...

Alternately, when "immediately after" occurs (as it must), what exactly prevents the hero from using Rapid Fire at that exact moment?  Dark Charm doesn't give the overlord complete control of the hero for the duration of the attack, it allows control of the attack itself, and the FAQ specifically allows the hero to control other things during the attack (only defensive options explicitly, but it only makes sense that any control not given to the OL would remain with the player by default).  I can't think of any other situation in which a hero would fulfill the triggering condition of a skill and yet have no window of opportunity in which to use it (other than the end of the game).

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Antistone said:

Alternately, when "immediately after" occurs (as it must), what exactly prevents the hero from using Rapid Fire at that exact moment?

If the hero's offensive capabilities are under overlord control at that exact moment, that prevents the hero from using Rapid Fire. The overlord player is not allowed to, and the hero player does not have control of that aspect of his hero yet at that moment.

 

Antistone said:
the FAQ specifically allows the hero to control other things during the attack (only defensive options explicitly, but it only makes sense that any control not given to the OL would remain with the player by default)

The OL is explicitly not allowed to add dice with fatigue. Since that's something not given to the OL, does that mean the hero player could choose to add dice? I'm not sure why he would want to, but mechanically I don't think he even has the option, even though that's not control given to the OL.

The overlord has control "of the attack itself", and it makes sense to me that any offensive ability would be part of the attack. Maybe not in quite the same way as spending fatigue, but still part of the attack.

 

Antistone said:
I can't think of any other situation in which a hero would fulfill the triggering condition of a skill and yet have no window of opportunity in which to use it (other than the end of the game).

I'm not really sure the hero does fulfill the triggering condition. The overlord player fulfills the triggering condition, but the overlord is not allowed to use the skill. I'm not sure if that really counts as the hero fulfilling the trigger. I mean, the hero player certainly does not fulfill it, and the game doesn't always differentiate very well between a hero doing something and the player controlling that hero doing something.

 

EDIT:

Antistone said:
Um...what exactly has happened to prevent "immediately" from applying?
If you say "a card's effect has ended," then you have to allow Dodge cards to break Rapid Fire chains, which is...unexpected...

I'm not sure how Corbon was thinking about it, but the way I was thinking about it it's not that a card's effect has ended; it's that control of the hero has passed from the OL to the hero player. That's a point of discontinuity which separates the hero player from the point in time "immediately" after the attack.

Also, I think the Dodge card is resolved before the attack is resolved (you still have to assess damage after the dice are re-rolled), so even if he were saying "a card's effect has ended," that wouldn't create the problem you describe.

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I can see no reason why Rapid Fire (or other similar skills) could not be used in reaction to Dark Charm. It's abundantly clear that the hero is making an attack as Dark Charm says "the hero must make one attack." That most definitely satisfies the trigger condition in Rapid Fire, which is "after making a Ranged attack." Whether it should be errattaed away is up for debate, but the two cards are very clear in what they do. Any arguments about timing have to invent things that don't exist (like the OL having control of the attack mattering one way or the other, or exactly when "immediately" occurs).

There is still a question about Cleaving though, as its trigger is "kill an enemy." It unclear if the hero being attacked by the Dark Charmed hero is an enemy, though presumably he is since the FAQ seems to indicate that friend/enemy status switches during a Dark Charm.

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In support of Corbon:

How does the timing of Guard interact with Dark Charm? Can I use my Guard order to attack when the overlord plays Dark Charm on me so I don't lose it? Can I use a Guard order to attack the hero the overlord is using Dark Charm on? In either case, can I do so before or after the die is rolled to see if the card takes effect?

Guard orders can interrupt the overlord at any time. However, each action should be resolved in its entirety once it's been begun. (For example, although you can interrupt the overlord if he declares an attack, if you choose not to the attack is resolved in its entirety before you have another chance to use your Guard order. You can't wait to see if the attack missed or not before deciding to Guard.) So, for Dark Charm, once the overlord has played the card you must immediately decide whether to interrupt it with a Guard order. If you choose not to, the overlord proceeds to roll dice and you must wait for the card (and its attack, if any) to be completely resolved. If you interrupt the Dark Charm and kill the target hero, then the card is canceled without further effect.

OL rolls the dice for the attack created by DC.  Player would be the one rolling dice for any other following attack, the transition between OL control and Player control would happen in the space where immediately would have to occur in order to trigger the skill in question IMO. 

While I can see that when using a Guard order you are allowed to use your skills to their full effect, that is the result of the Guard order being an interupt of the OL's turn.  DC is not an interrupt of the OL's turn, it is an OL action that forces a character he cannot normally control to launch an attack as though the OL could control him.  It does not then grant the character an interupt action and allow them to use their skills on the OL's turn. 
 

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James McMurray said:

 

mahkra said:

I'm not really sure the hero does fulfill the triggering condition.

 

How is that even possible? Unless you're saying that the hero did not make an attack despite Dark Charm saying he did?

 

 

No, I'm trying to say that the line between "hero" and "hero player" is often blurred in this game. If you go strictly by the wording on this one card, I know it's the "hero" that matters, not the "hero player", but I don't think that's a safe precedent to set for the rest of the game because other parts of the game break when held to that level of detail. The game is not consistent in when to use "hero" and when to use "hero player", so I'm not sure what the card is actually supposed to mean. And I know the "hero player" didn't make an attack. I'm inclined to believe many rules were written without considering the possibility of the "hero" doing something without the "hero player" doing it.

In any event, I think that's really moot. The hero player does not have control of the hero's offensive abilities at the point in time that the skill's triggering condition is met.

 

EDIT: Here's one example.

Fend
Play this card after the overlord has declared a monster's attack against you, but before he has rolled the dice for the attack.
Your hero gains +4 armor for that attack.

The monster attacks you, not your hero. But your hero gains +4 armor.
In general, I don't really trust that the rules actually differentiate between a hero and a hero player in any meaningful way.

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I'm the visual type. So I see Silhouette in the dungeon, hit by a DC, her eyes cloud over, and she wickedly targets one of her team-mates, pinning him to the wall with an arrow. Then in the next moment, because she's a Rapid Fire expert, and not so wicked anymore, her eyes clean again, she turns to the next beastman, and cooly shoots into its eye.

I don't think it works... The rules maybe allow it, but I wouln't do it, even if I controlled Shilouette.

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It's really all up to whether the second person on the Rapid Fire card refers to the Hero or the Hero Player.  "After making a ranged attack, you may..." doesn't definitively define it one way or the other (although the implication is that the reference is to the Player). The Dark Charm card is even less helpful, oscillating between "hero" and "hero player" between sentences.  However, if both cards treat the player and the hero as synonyms, then the answer is clear: Dark Charm can trigger Rapid Fire, since the hero ("you") "makes a [ranged] attack" (declared by the overlord).

This kind of ambiguity is why we can't have nice things.

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Thundercles said:

It's really all up to whether the second person on the Rapid Fire card refers to the Hero or the Hero Player.  "After making a ranged attack, you may..." doesn't definitively define it one way or the other (although the implication is that the reference is to the Player). The Dark Charm card is even less helpful, oscillating between "hero" and "hero player" between sentences.  However, if both cards treat the player and the hero as synonyms, then the answer is clear: Dark Charm can trigger Rapid Fire, since the hero ("you") "makes a [ranged] attack" (declared by the overlord).

This kind of ambiguity is why we can't have nice things.

This...
dragon76 said:


OL rolls the dice for the attack created by DC. Player would be the one rolling dice for any other following attack, the transition between OL control and Player control would happen in the space where immediately would have to occur in order to trigger the skill in question IMO.

...is why I still think most of you are following a red herring here.

Rapid Fire requires the fatigue be spent immediately. The OL can't do it, and since something else happens (hand over of control) before the hero player can do it, it can't be done.

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Corbon said:

I still think most of you are following a red herring here.

Rapid Fire requires the fatigue be spent immediately. The OL can't do it, and since something else happens (hand over of control) before the hero player can do it, it can't be done.

+1

I probably should not have mentioned the "hero" vs "hero player" concept, because that appears to have become a distraction. The important part of what I was saying is the same as what Corbon's saying:

"In any event, I think that's really moot. The hero player does not have control of the hero's offensive abilities at the point in time that the skill's triggering condition is met."

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mahkra said:

"In any event, I think that's really moot. The hero player does not have control of the hero's offensive abilities at the point in time that the skill's triggering condition is met."

This seems to me to be the crux of your argument, but it doesn't seem to be based in fact. What is there in either card that says the hero doesn't get to activate his skills once the Overlord has completed his attack. There's a lot of stake being put behind the word "immediately" indicating that if anything at all happens in the microseconds between the overlord completing the attack and the hero spending fatigue, fatigue can't be spent. But to me that's the moot part, since there's absolutely nothing that indicates that the hero isn't allowed to spend fatigue just because the Overlord rolled dice instead of the player.

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James McMurray said:

mahkra said:

 

"In any event, I think that's really moot. The hero player does not have control of the hero's offensive abilities at the point in time that the skill's triggering condition is met."

 

 

This seems to me to be the crux of your argument, but it doesn't seem to be based in fact. What is there in either card that says the hero doesn't get to activate his skills once the Overlord has completed his attack. There's a lot of stake being put behind the word "immediately" indicating that if anything at all happens in the microseconds between the overlord completing the attack and the hero spending fatigue, fatigue can't be spent. But to me that's the moot part, since there's absolutely nothing that indicates that the hero isn't allowed to spend fatigue just because the Overlord rolled dice instead of the player.

It's not based on the card text; it's based on the FAQ.

FAQ:
The overlord controls the hero for that attack, including the hero’s use of surges and power dice. The overlord may also play cards such as “Aim” with the attack. However, the overlord player cannot move the character, or force the hero to spend fatigue to add to the attack. The overlord may not force the character to use any orders. The hero retains control of any of her defensive options such as shields or Ghost Armor.

Based on the bold parts above, the overlord controls the hero for the attack; the hero only controls defensive options. I don't see how Rapid Fire could be considered a defensive option, so that means the timing is important. And "immediately after the attack", the hero player does not have control; there's a point of discontinuity between the attack and the time after the attack.

Also, do you mean spend fatigue to activate the skill, or spend fatigue to add dice to the attack, as I mentioned earlier in this thread?

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The overlord controls them for the attack, and only for the attack. Once the attack is over they can do what they want. Quibbling over "immediately" is grasping at straws. Would you prevent a hero from reacting with Rapid Fire (sans Dark Charm) if another hero interrupted with a guard, or if they chose to use Necromancy? Both would break this tenuous "immediate" clause.

mahkra said:

Also, do you mean spend fatigue to activate the skill, or spend fatigue to add dice to the attack, as I mentioned earlier in this thread?

Sorry, I'm talking about spending fatigue for Rapid Fire.

But in the end, there's no official rule so you're free to play it how you want. I'll just refrain from Dark Charming heroes with those types of skills, or trying to activate them if I'm Dark Charmed, should it ever come up at the table. Knowing our group, the resultant rules argument would end in shouting and be nowhere near worth the tradeoff for one or two dead monsters, even if it won the heroes/OL the game. :)

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James McMurray said:

The overlord controls them for the attack, and only for the attack. Once the attack is over they can do what they want. Quibbling over "immediately" is grasping at straws. Would you prevent a hero from reacting with Rapid Fire (sans Dark Charm) if (A) another hero interrupted with a guard, or (B) if they chose to use Necromancy? Both would break this tenuous "immediate" clause.

(A)   I suppose you're imagining hero #1 makes a guard attack, then wants to use Rapid Fire, but hero #2 activates his guard order first. I don't think this can actually happen, because hero #2 can't use his guard order until hero #1's guard interrupt is completely resolved. (I'm extrapolating from the FAQ ruling about Tahlia. "Q: Is another hero with Guard allowed to interrupt Tahlia's Guard interrupt movement (e.g. possibly using a more favorable attack position for Spiritwalker)? A: No.")

(B)   I'm not sure how Rapid Fire would work with Necromancy. At first glance, I see two plausible but conflicting possibilities:

  1. Necromancy ends a Rapid Fire chain, because the reanimation occurs after the attack. After that, it's too late for Rapid Fire.
  2. The attack is not fully resolved until after the reanimation occurs (reanimation happens as part of resolving monster death, which is part of step 6 in the JitD attack sequence), at which point Rapid Fire can "immediately" be used.

 

I think it'd be grasping at straws to say "immediately" means "the player must declare the use of Rapid Fire within .005 nanoseconds of the attack being resolved", but I don't think it's grasping at straws to say "immediately" means "before the game state has changed". And I think that transferring control of the hero from the overlord to the hero player is a rather significant change in the game state.

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James McMurray said:

And I think that the idea of "changing game state" is an invented concept altogether and so has little place in a discussion of the rules. :)

Seriously? That makes about as much sense as saying there's no reason to ever paraphrase a rule in order to explain it better.

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Do you honestly believe that the designers intended that level of technical fidgeting when they created Rapid Fire?

But like I said, play how you want. I don't see any reason in explaining my stance any farther, and I'm fairly certain I understand yours, so I'll bow out now. :)

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mahkra said:

 

James McMurray said:

 

mahkra said:

 

"In any event, I think that's really moot. The hero player does not have control of the hero's offensive abilities at the point in time that the skill's triggering condition is met."

 

 

This seems to me to be the crux of your argument, but it doesn't seem to be based in fact. What is there in either card that says the hero doesn't get to activate his skills once the Overlord has completed his attack. There's a lot of stake being put behind the word "immediately" indicating that if anything at all happens in the microseconds between the overlord completing the attack and the hero spending fatigue, fatigue can't be spent. But to me that's the moot part, since there's absolutely nothing that indicates that the hero isn't allowed to spend fatigue just because the Overlord rolled dice instead of the player.

 

 

It's not based on the card text; it's based on the FAQ.

FAQ:
The overlord controls the hero for that attack, including the hero’s use of surges and power dice. The overlord may also play cards such as “Aim” with the attack. However, the overlord player cannot move the character, or force the hero to spend fatigue to add to the attack. The overlord may not force the character to use any orders. The hero retains control of any of her defensive options such as shields or Ghost Armor.

Based on the bold parts above, the overlord controls the hero for the attack; the hero only controls defensive options. I don't see how Rapid Fire could be considered a defensive option, so that means the timing is important. And "immediately after the attack", the hero player does not have control; there's a point of discontinuity between the attack and the time after the attack.

Also, do you mean spend fatigue to activate the skill, or spend fatigue to add dice to the attack, as I mentioned earlier in this thread?

 

 

There's still enough ambiguity about this issue that just repeating the FAQ answer is not enough.  I mean, by that answer alone, the OL could make a reasonable case for being allowed to use Rapid Fire (can't spend fatigue to "add to attack" i.e. add power dice, but doesn't say anything about not being able to use skills or not being able to spend fatigue on skills/hero abilities.  Cases in point: Inner Fire skill, Laurel ability). There's never been anything defined for this issue or similar issues, and I just don't see how we can assume that Rapid Fire and similar skills are automatically off limits to one side or the other.

I guess my basic complaint here is that both "yes" and "no" are just conjecture at this point.

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