Advanced game starting wealth

[KommissarK 209]

So, this is more a general thing, but I can't seem to find anything covering this in the DH book; if the players are say, given 2000 xp at the start of the game, how much wealth should be given to them? Starting wealth +500/+750/+2000 (note these are just random ideas, not well thought out things).  Would you say there is a forumula, or a way to do this by starting rank?  Thoughts, opinions, personal experiences anyone?  I ran a game once and gave like 1000 xp and 1000 thrones, and it seemed to run alright, but I think I gave the players a bit much.  Any thoughts on pacing the game and how much the players  should be able to acquire as a function of xp? (such that players don't have equipment beyond their skills, or skills beyond their equipment?)

[Darkshroud 0]

Actually there something in the book; on page 29 there's a side bar that mentions you should give them a months wage for every 400 additional XP given at the start. So a 2000 XP start would be 5 months wage meaning anything from about round 155 to 1000 (or more if a posh noble).

[Cifer 211]

 Don't forget that those wages increase with rank as well.

[Baldrick 0]

Don't be afraid to tweak the money off what it say in the book. Pick a throne amount that fits what you want the players to have.

I was a player (quite a few years ago) in a fantastic Cyberpunk 2020 campaign based around a street gang. Most players had so little cash we had to pick fights based around how much ammo we could afford! An extreme example but it worked well and it shows how you can inject interest into a campaign by controlling the money.

 

[syzygy2 0]

You gotta strike the right balance between giving them enough that they'll love you as the GM, but not enough to afford the sweetest weapon or armor in the campaign without stealing/killing for it. I do that all the time in the Tabletop RPGs I run, and it hasn't once not lead to hilarity.

[LeBlanc13 5]

Or you could allow them to build their characters towards crafting the perfect weapon, creating it and using it once before deciding to run an adventure where the PC's lose all their equipment in the first chapter. Then as a GM you don't have to compensate for it later on with tougher bad guys. Does a great job of crushing the morale of your players too. Can't you tell I'm a player in this campaign.

L-A-M-E (still bitter)

Anyway, I think if your players skrimp and save to get the item they want, you should let them find it when it makes sense. If they are on a hive world or imperial world, they should have a better chance than someone on a feral world or agriworld of finding a BFG 5000. If it makes sense and they have the thrones for it, I say they should get it. When it doesn't make sense, you could either boost the price or say it's not possible to find the item on this world.

Now that our group has 3 bolt pistols, the galaxy has aparently had a shortage of bolter rounds. I dislike when our group is railroaded and messed with by our GM. It happens quite often.

To get back on topic. I think the 400xp equals 1 months pay is fair. Lots of rolling for the scum, but everyone else should do pretty well.

[At Last Forgot 1]

 We started our campaign with 3000xp and 2500 Thrones and it seemed reasonable enough. Toeing into Rank 5, we had Chain Swords, Good Quality basic weapons, and decent armor (I had Enforcer Light Carapace for example). Our adventures have been mostly very easy, but that has more to do with our GM not wanting to hold some of our players responsible for their powergaming/bull.

 

I would say a decent guideline would be having about as many Thrones as you do XP at least for the first few Ranks or little less, adjusted slightly up and down if you want for Careers.

 

By the way, I personally want to weigh in on the "money via salary" thing. It doesn't work as well for higher level characters in my opinion, because past the earliest of ranks your major source of income is not your so called "salary" it is most likely coming from things you appropriate during your missions. This kind of wealth tends to get spread around perfectly equally, unlike salaries which vary enormously from character to character. I agree that a Scum should have less starting wealth from an RP perspective than, say, a Noble Born Guardsman or something. But I don't think the disparity should be, at higher levels, as high as it would be if you were going purely on salary.

 

Another note would be to echo LeBlanc's point, both as a GM and a player. Never take away something that a character feels he or she has worked extensively for regardless of whether it is realistic or not. These people are theoretically your friends and sadism is a miserable trait in a GM.

[cycliclife 0]

Agreed, I have a fairly decent (I hope) idea on it. What ever they can get their hands on they can keep. This is provided that its not Holy (no stealing imperial relics)/stolen from the Inquisition/or Demonic relic. I have no problem with powerful weapons or items I just make the bad guys a shade tougher. I have let them keep several things from house of dust and ash though I did have their inquisitor take back the large credit blocks and the malific codex. However because they offered up the codex during the debrief I gave them a nice bonus. The gear from the ashen tear assassin and some of the other npcs made for some interesting rolling to see if they could salvage it or trick it depending one what it was. One PC grabbed the rosarius off Greel and another grabbed his power scythe. They ended up making out quite well during the adventure. Most recently one of the PCs managed to get a very heavy weapon for himself, though since the next phase of the adventure takes place in space I doubt he will get to use it much. I think he can console himself with the plasma rifle he just bought (using a bonus and some help from his inquisitor) from the Lathe Ad-Mech instead.

[MKX 248]

Ditch the Income system and use the party Influence system out of Ascension, by far the income system in DH is one of the worst ones* I've ever come across and for advanced characters it makes sense they'd be around 30-40 influence, which should let them get the basics and maybe give them one freebie of rare or so availability.

*well its amusing for the first 1-4 levels when they're broke as hobos, but after that all the bean counting, lack of equipment, screwed up prices and endless whining just really gives you the *****... we're here for bold and exciting adventure in the service of the inquisition, not "we're in it for the loot because we're hungry!"

[Dalnor Surloc 1]

Personally in DH I ditched the income charts early.  (They did have to spend some time poor to prove themselves.) After all the PC are members of the Inquisition.  They shouldn't be counting their bullets, and looting the dead to fund the goals of their master who can command armies and doom worlds.  Instead the PC simply walked into their boss's armory (or a guard/arbite armory) and took what they needed, and returned it when they were done.That said in my last game the PCs didn't run around in power armor with boltguns and the like.  That kind of gear drew too much attention, and their boss got upset when the PCs broke their cover without reason.  (Upset equaled being spaced until someone else in the party took responsiblity for the spaced PC.)

[LeBlanc13 5]

MKX said:

Ditch the Income system and use the party Influence system out of Ascension, by far the income system in DH is one of the worst ones* I've ever come across and for advanced characters it makes sense they'd be around 30-40 influence, which should let them get the basics and maybe give them one freebie of rare or so availability.

*well its amusing for the first 1-4 levels when they're broke as hobos, but after that all the bean counting, lack of equipment, screwed up prices and endless whining just really gives you the *****... we're here for bold and exciting adventure in the service of the inquisition, not "we're in it for the loot because we're hungry!"

Funny enough, this system is the closest thing to how real life jobs work (except for the poor scum, although I suppose he could have the unpredictability in his income that contractor's and tradespeople have.) In this system, as you gain ranks you get increases in monthly pay. They are modest and not at all in line with the spending you would like to do (again like real life.) Unless you get into a really good job right away, you have to deal with the lower end drek, which is unfortunately where you are from ranks 1-8 as an acolyte. Even a rank 8 acolyte is still a peon in the inquistion.

I think the reason they change things in Ascension is that your group is actually a Throne Agent and are given the responsibility of being able to use the Inquisitions funds for your missions.

As an acolyte, you get your monthly stipend from your normal job (source) and anything else is a gift from your Inquisitorial employer. I find that not enough GM's reward their acolyte group with freebie equipment to for doing a good job for the inquisition. The inquisitors need to throw their employees a bone every now and then. Instead, our group always ends up not getting our regular income and paying through the nose for equipment. We''ve even been forced to steal the equipment or the money to pay for it on occasion. Yes, in the beginning adventure we went on we were given some lasguns with =][= inscribed on the sides, but basic equipment like that gets old fast.

[graver2 4]

LeBlanc13 said:

MKX said:

 

Ditch the Income system and use the party Influence system out of Ascension, by far the income system in DH is one of the worst ones* I've ever come across and for advanced characters it makes sense they'd be around 30-40 influence, which should let them get the basics and maybe give them one freebie of rare or so availability.

*well its amusing for the first 1-4 levels when they're broke as hobos, but after that all the bean counting, lack of equipment, screwed up prices and endless whining just really gives you the *****... we're here for bold and exciting adventure in the service of the inquisition, not "we're in it for the loot because we're hungry!"

 

 

Funny enough, this system is the closest thing to how real life jobs work (except for the poor scum, although I suppose he could have the unpredictability in his income that contractor's and tradespeople have.) In this system, as you gain ranks you get increases in monthly pay. They are modest and not at all in line with the spending you would like to do (again like real life.) Unless you get into a really good job right away, you have to deal with the lower end drek, which is unfortunately where you are from ranks 1-8 as an acolyte. Even a rank 8 acolyte is still a peon in the inquistion.

I think the reason they change things in Ascension is that your group is actually a Throne Agent and are given the responsibility of being able to use the Inquisitions funds for your missions.

As an acolyte, you get your monthly stipend from your normal job (source) and anything else is a gift from your Inquisitorial employer. I find that not enough GM's reward their acolyte group with freebie equipment to for doing a good job for the inquisition. The inquisitors need to throw their employees a bone every now and then. Instead, our group always ends up not getting our regular income and paying through the nose for equipment. We''ve even been forced to steal the equipment or the money to pay for it on occasion. Yes, in the beginning adventure we went on we were given some lasguns with =][= inscribed on the sides, but basic equipment like that gets old fast.

And that right there could be one problem I and many others have with it.  It is too close to a modern consumerist mindset and not at all indicitive of the archaic fudal system that fules the Imperium.  Accolytes aren't employed by the Inquisition.  In fact I don't think the Inquisition employes anybody.  Hell, in the Imperium, there's very few employers and emploiess.  What there is, however, is masters and servants.  In the Imperium, you don't have an employer and a job; you have a master and you have a duty.

[LeBlanc13 5]

The problem is though, if you went right off the bat with a system of influence to generate equipment the players would NEVER get new equipment. They have no influence in the Inquisition, and frankly no one would believe them at starting rank if they tried to use that influence to get more equipment anyway.

I'm not sure if there is a happy medium, but I'm okay with the income system until I get to Ascension. It's debatable if my group will ever get there, but I still hope.

[graver2 4]

LeBlanc13 said:

 

The problem is though, if you went right off the bat with a system of influence to generate equipment the players would NEVER get new equipment. They have no influence in the Inquisition, and frankly no one would believe them at starting rank if they tried to use that influence to get more equipment anyway.

I'm not sure if there is a happy medium, but I'm okay with the income system until I get to Ascension. It's debatable if my group will ever get there, but I still hope.

 

 

That's only true if the characters exist in a vacuum, which they shouldn't.

Say a starting cell (after their first session so they're all rank 2 now) who pulls all their resources has an Inf roughly equal to a gang boss or a hab supervisor (5). Now, this cell is handed a mission that they feel they'll all six need an auto gun loaded with man-stoppers to handle.

For the Autoguns, the modifiers are: -10 (for 2-5... and 6 is closer to 5 then 10...), +10 (Average avl) for total of +0, and -20 (for not pulling the =][= card... mostly because they can't). So far, they have a -15% chance of getting those guns, better known as not a chance in hell. So the Scum steps up with Peer Underworld mentioning he'll go to Sceevy Steve the Smuggler to see if he's got any they could take off his hands. That gives the group a +10 for a total of -5% now. However, the scum had also previously purchased Sceevy Steeve as a contact (IH) how offers SP weapons that "fell off the ship" at discount of 3 availability levels (at 10 xp per level, why not go for the gold?) which raises the avl of the guns to Abundant and gives them a +40 (+50 for abundant -10 for the previously calculated avl of Average) raising their chances of getting those guns to 35%. That's still not the best of odds, so the scum decides to butter ol' Sceevy Steve up a bit first with a night of debauchery with rot-gut from his own personal stash and two joy-girls he managed to sweet talk with his silver tongue. The GM rules all that and some good role-play gives him a +30 (say a +10 for the liquor, +10 for the girls, and +10 for some smashing role-play) to his charm check to butter ol' Steve up as well as another +10 to the Inf check for "looking the part". He rolls a 32 out of 65 (Fel 35 + 30) for a total of 3 DoS giving him a +6 +10 for the Inf test raising it to a total of 51%. Of course there's still the matter of time to consider. If he's looking to get the guns permanently that will impart another -20, but if he only borrowed the weapons for a single mission (the mission they reckon they'll need them for), they would get a +20. However, Sceevy Steve ain't no library.

After a bit of negotiation, the GM agrees through Steve that trading goods or preforming a service for Steve when their mission is up (Steve's got this gang boss what's been moving in on his turf...) will count as effectively borrowing the weapons for a single mission giving the group the +20. They now have a 71% chance of getting those weapons which seems about right for something that would normally cost 600 thrones. If they weren't too picky, they could raise that to an 91% for poor quality autoguns and almost definitely be able to get them.

The GM, at this time, decides that the manstopper ammo will be lumped in with the Inf roll and all the wheeling and dealing up to this point seeing as how it would be rather silly to get the guns and then have to go through everything again to get the ammo. As the manstoppers are one level more difficult to get, and the players have decided that they would really like some decent Autoguns but if Sceevy Steve just can't get his hands on some, they'll settle for any ol' crap shooter he can get, the finnal numbers for the test are: 01-51 = 6 Autoguns with 2 clips of Man-stoppers per gun and 2 clips regular ammo (what the GM rules to be 1 missions worth), 52-71 = 6 Autoguns with 2 clips regular ammo per gun, 71-91 = 6 poor quality Autoguns with 2 clips of ammo per gun. If they roll an 01-51, they get exactly what they were after, 52-71, they still get the guns, but will have to make due without the ammo unless another pc has a way of getting man-stoppers, and if they roll a 71-91, all they will be able to get from Sceevy Steve is some battered and poorly maintained autoguns... and they'll still have to take care of that gang boss that's been giving him grief or the scum might be out a contact or worse.

There's a lot of GM calls in that, but most in-game situations tend to call for such and since were not in the rule questions section, I feel I can include them.  Besides, that's how I tend to run such Acquisition checks and it works... and really rewards creative players who want to really get into the world and story. The same flow could be applied to an Adept using Scholastic Lore (bureaucracy) to get temporary access to that weapons crate that was mislabeled and ended up in the wrong port before it gets shiped off to the right war front (as long as it's contents are returned before the month is out), the Arbitrator requisitioning weapons from the precincts armory, the Techpriest suplicating himself before the Magus of the weapons foundry, the Noble writting a letter to his cousin to have some of those guns shipped to him post-haste, etc. The primary strength I've found in using Inf as opposed to Thrones in such a way is that it really stresses the PC's role in Imperial society and rewards them for being a part of it (even if they're a scum and not really a part of it). It rewards peer talents, stresses how different careers and walks of life get things done (the adept's approach to getting those autoguns would have been light-years away from the scum's), and buying contacts to be used which help add to the atmosphere and ambiance of the 40k universe. Heck, it also tends to offer up additional plot hooks and side stories for additional fun where-as getting a fist full of thrones and jogging down to the store really doesn't -and it has all the ambiance of putting on you best cassock and heading off to Wal-Mart, but that just might be me.

 

[LeBlanc13 5]

Impressive. Too much work for me, but very impressive.

[MKX 248]

I think in my last session it was hammered home that in the inquisition, its not 'who you are', but 'who you know' that gets them by on a lot of cases and I did up a list of people who really like them, people that owe them a favour and a somewhat huge list of people that hate them It also showed that in some instances where they didn't go that extra mile to make a friend/ally through role playing or further assistance and instead just got a favour. Which if they wanted to, could return and work on that  later to turn it into a contact or influence.

Otherwise, you're just another guy that shoots guns, another guy who steals stuff, another guy who nukes people with his mind... etc, and the imperium is full of those people that are emminently replaceable, as a long serving member of the inquisition, it is your characters best interests that he/she makes themselves as useful as possible. At start you get 400xp you can spend on contacts, background family and in some ways, that will see you further in the long term than just knowing how to shoot another type of gun for the first few adventures.

The other thing to consider is that Acolytes aren't as completely disposable as sometimes people make them out to be, Inquisitors permanently burn a big chunck of influence to set up acolyte cells and it is in the inquisitors best interests that they are at least functional for the tasks and will achieve the missions given to them. He won't want to micro-manage everything, that's the job of the Interrogator aka Inquisition middle-management

[KommissarK 209]

Thanks for the help, never did notice that blurb on page 29. 

I tend to mostly just reward the players on a per mission basis, so my main question was to just determine how much money they should start with, to gauge just what gear they should really have access too (like if I said lets start a game with characters having 3000xp, is it reasonable for the guardsman to have enforcer light carapace, etc.).  Also, I'm kinda lazy to go case by case, and have my players make an argument as to why they should start with a meltagun.  Much easier and less pressure on me if just say you have X thrones, have fun.

Of course this also results in scum getting it stupidly rough I guess, think I should be open to allowing players to pool money in these cases (doubt they'd be willing to do that though).