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Gregorius21778

[Flawed Balance?] Flak Greatcoat vs. Guard Flak Armour

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Greetings, brethern

while wiping up a "you-can-buy-this-list" for one of my groups, I came to compare the Guard Flak Armour (DH core rules p. 145) with the Flak Great Coat (IH p. 181)

Flak Armour         AP:4           All zones                           11kg         300 thrones          Scarce            AP:5 versus blast quality          
Flak Greatcoat     AP:4          All zones but head           9 kg         150 thrones          Average           AP:5 versus blast quality

It seems the Greatcoat has the benefits of being much cheaper (half the price), more readily available and lighter to carry. The onyl drawback: it does not protect the head.

Even if one would assume that this clothing would not be available outside the military (which is contradicted by the fluff text given in the IH stat it as the favorite of "cilivan fighters"), why should the IG outfitt anyone with anything else? Simply, take a greatcoat, add a flak helmet (25 thrones; AP:2)and everything is quiet fine. Not "guard armour fine" but quiet fine with a huge safe in money and time for acquiering stuff.

What I am looking for is a way to balance the items. My first idea is to make reduce the availability of the Greatcoat to "Rare" and reason it with "advance fabrication process". In addition, I would race the price to 250 thrones.

Any suggestions or comments?

 

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 I'll be interested to see how you manage to armour a fighter up to a complete AP4 without using Guard Flak - the only AP4 helmet costs almost as much as the entire suit.

If you want to get semi-cheap armour protecting most parts of you for most fights, you take the Greatcoat. If you want professional stuff that doesn't let that one-in-ten headshot (or rather, one-in-one if we're talking professional combatants with Deadeye or Sharpshooter) ruin your day, you take the Guard Flak.

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Cifer said:

 I'll be interested to see how you manage to armour a fighter up to a complete AP4 without using Guard Flak -

Hi Cifer,

I am not looking for "another way to give somebody total AP 4 without using guard flak".

I am looking for a better balance between an item which costs 300 thrones and gives AP4 to all zones against an itme that does the same expect head but comes along with the benefits of being half the price (!) and one step more available. 

To me, that is a flawed balance.

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 And I just noted why it isn't. You're comparing apples and oranges - unless you can show me how to get AP4 for the head for 150 thrones or less, the items are just not comparable for the reason I already mentioned: You're not protecting the zone that is hardest to put into cover, that has the worst crit results and that can easily be called by a sniper.

As the old saying goes: If you've got a 20$ head, wear a 20$ helmet.

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Gregorius21778 said:

Even if one would assume that this clothing would not be available outside the military (which is contradicted by the fluff text given in the IH stat it as the favorite of "cilivan fighters"), why should the IG outfitt anyone with anything else?

The Guard Flak armour probably includes the "Flak Great Coat" or something similar. The IG *are* using it, just they also provide a decent helmet.

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Perhaps it's just me, but my copy of IH p.181 only lists a Flak Greatcoat as covering the arms and body (unless there has been an errata thay i'm unaware of, nothing turns up on a search of v3.0).

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Khouri said:

Perhaps it's just me, but my copy of IH p.181 only lists a Flak Greatcoat as covering the arms and body (unless there has been an errata thay i'm unaware of, nothing turns up on a search of v3.0).

 

Nothing for it in the errata, Khouri.  However, I've personally ruled for my games that the Flak Greatcoat covers legs as well.  After all, the light and normal flak coats do, and are probably shorter; mid-thigh versus mid-calf or so.  OT, but related; the environmental body glove (IHB pages 150-151) needs some errata to, since it "add +1 Armor Point to all locations," per its description, much the way the original write-up for syn-skin before the errata.

As a side note, remember that the Flak Greatcoat is typically the heaviest armor worn by Commissars.  happy.gif

-=Brother Praetus=-

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 As a side note, remember that the Flak Greatcoat is typically the heaviest armor worn by Commissars.

Except for those who "forgot" to return their carapace after a certain incident involving genestealers... cool.gif

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from france

not sur that commissar wear it in environement like catachan ethier they die after sweating  so much or because they a "accident" or a friendly fire put them  out. incredible the way a greatflak goat don't protect you when you walk on a mine accidently put there by the regiment you watch.

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I don't think there's a flawed imbalance in the price. It's not about what covers what blah blah blah, the difference in price is a result in how the two armors are being utilized. The Guard Flak Armour is battle armor no question. Anyone who see's someone in GF knows something is going down somewhere. Much to the same as if you were to go to the gas station and a fully decked out squad of S.W.A.T. come rolling up. The normal mook off the street has no hope of ever trying to buy a set of GF without joining IG or whatever spec ops a typical city, hive, planet may have.

The Flak Greatcoat on the other hand is more like a padded trenchcoat. Way more subtle than the GF armor. Anyone wearing it could go to a public function, walk the streets, or whatever, armored and no one would think twice about it. This would be something easier for the civilian to geat ahold of. Plus its cheaper to make one complete piece of armor than it is to make pieced armor. I don't see the FG as being made to be "armor" it just kinda evolved that way and the makers saw they could make money off of it.

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Just remember this: You can ward Guard Flak/Hard type armors (anything a stormtrooper would wear), but you can't ward Great Flak Jackets. Also: Hardened Body gloves at good or best quality.

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Gregorius21778 said:

Any suggestions or comments?

 

 

In my version of IH the Flak Greatcoat only covers (weirdly enough...) Body and Arms and the errata says nothing about it.. So it is far less usefull in my opinion. Apart from this, there are a lot strange values for armour (and weapons) in DH (including IH). Flak Vest and Flak Cloak do not compare well and neither do Mesh Combat Cloak and Xeno Mesh or certain combinations of Carapace Armour for that matter.

Still, in my game the Greatcoat covers Arms, Body and Legs but is rather rigid and noticeable (just the way Commissars like it). So it is hard to impossible to hide as the flak plates are clearly visible through the cloth and the 9 kg hang at your shoulders.

The Guard Flak Armour lies directly upon the body surface so to speak and can be hidden beneath most outdoor clothing (apart from the helmet of course). In my game the Body part is like the bullet proof vests the police wears occasionally and the Arm and Leg parts are sort of similar to the shin guards of soccer or hockey players. You look a little bloated maybe, but not in so far to attract too much unwanted attention down-hive.

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At this point, I can stop. If it only gives the AP 4 to torso and body, it is fine since their is some balance to the Flak Armour. It fells strange compared to the other coats, but since their is no ERRATA, this is what raw says. Perhaps the armo fabriq isn´t inserted in the part covering the legs by design since it would hinder movement to much. Like having planks of wood losely dangling before your knees every step you take.

@Cifer
In game terms, theirs is no way to protect the head with AP:4 for 150 thrones. Based on my error (legs are covered as well) I understood that (taken the cost of the flakk armour) you can fashion a protection for 4 limbs and a torso for 150 thrones, but will need the same amout of money to fashion and equal protection to head. While I have no idea of the actual cost for building helmts and if such things are that really expensive, this seemed awfully wrong to me. Starting with the quantity of material (protecting the head as compared to protecting the rest of the body) and ending with the assumed afford needed to construct armour that still allows movement without any penalties (besides weight).


But as mentioned above, it was all based on the (very wrong) assumption that all flak coats cover the same span of locations. Should read things more carefully
 

Thanks to all.

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